Legion: What do you think soo far?

[elfporn]

change ain't the same as gutting a class

Step back and look at the whole picture. You'll get the idea behind all the changes to all classes.

[maddnesskhaz]

Generally i'm excited about a lot of the things coming with Legion. The new transmog system is a great QoL change for example, whilst the new CM system might make for much longer-lasting and more relevant content.

I'm unsure as to whether Artifacts are good or bad as yet, I think a lot of that will hinge on how difficult it will be to maintain 3 (or 2, or 4) to allow us to play all our specs at a reasonable level.

As for the class specific changes; I think thus far the Rogue ones are pretty disappointing across the board. They've shown some amazing changes for other classes, and within the 3 specs there's a number of positive changes, but overall it seems poorly executed and half-finished. Generally speaking, I think simplying core rotations makes alts more accessible, but the disparity between class / specs as to how much they've changed from live is enormous.

For Rogues specifically; none of the specs are close to a finished state, yet the changes being made in the last 3 - 5 Alpha builds are all minor and don't address the concerns I see most posted about. Celestalon's response to the Sub feedback suggested that they have little interest in the community feedback, as they're just assuming the majority aren't posting and just like whatever they're doing.

• Assassination has a decent core rotation, but lacks talents to really flesh things out, along with abilities like Vendetta still needing work.
• Outlaw has a basic - albeit functional - core rotation, but a number of issues between the Artifact, Talents, Energy generation, and the wild RNG of Roll the Bones.
• Subtlety is the least finished of all 3, with major issues with the Artifact, Talents, poor Energy generation, and a very clunky implementation of a number of abilities across the board, including removing Stealth Bar paging from Shadow Dance.

[RobertoCarlos]

You're a good tester maddnesskhaz, blizz should hire you. Then I would have more faith in the outcome of rogues. I'm sure they will polish things more by the time legion is live and running with a few patches in and they get more feedback. But that takes a long time and core problems are not easy fixes once it goes live.

[Todesbote]

You're a good tester maddnesskhaz, blizz should hire you. Then I would have more faith in the outcome of rogues.

I agree. You should see Faible's/khaz's posts in the official legion class feedback forums (e.g. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20742885927#11 ). They are well written and on point and almost everyone in the rogue community can agree to the points he is making. The sad part is that his and our feedback on the official forums has been the same over almost the last 8 weeks and it doesn't seem like Blizzard cares about it. Depressing.

[RobertoCarlos]

I agree. You should see Faible's/khaz's posts in the official legion class feedback forums (e.g. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20742885927#11 ). They are well written and on point and almost everyone in the rogue community can agree to the points he is making. The sad part is that his and our feedback on the official forums has been the same over almost the last 8 weeks and it doesn't seem like Blizzard cares about it. Depressing.

I know, its very depressing considering the extent some people go to, to test and be unbiased and try get the class/spec working the best they can then Celestalon will just come along and be like durrrrrr we're ok with some classes not doing aoe durrrrr play another if you dont like it deeerp

[Mafic]

For me the talents have to become more powerful Nerfing Anticipation, making Acrobatic Strikes/Hit and Run weak, or a even weaponmaster which is not noticeable unles you are looking at your combat log all don't add to Rogue game play.

Rogues have been stuck with average talents for a long time since MoP beta because Rogues had a strong base kit. Classes with weaker base kits had stronger talents so that made sense in my mind.

However, in Legion Rogue base kit is weaker with the pruning and the talents are still weak and fail to make Rogue stronger.

Make the talents stronger and Rogues in Legion will feel more distinct and interesting than live versions IMVHO.

[ro9ue]

Spent a lot of time on alpha with all 3 rogue specs.

Assassination is bad
Subtlety is really bad
Outlaw is really fun


Assassination basically got the equivalent of the Arms Warrior's "Rend Gift". Like oh hey you are just throwing this stupid bleed back into our rotation? They did this with Garrote. I love Garrote as an out of stealth silence. I do not like Garrote as an extra button to hit to just keep a bleed up.. IMO that's what the Hemo talent should be for. If someone wants another bleed, they can take that.

Also without Dispatch procs, Assassination just feels really empty and boring. And worst of all, it's CD Vendetta is the most boring of all 3 specs. I think Assassination should get Killing Spree since Outlaw got a huge overhaul and is actually quite fun now.

Still a limited poison arsenal....

Artifact daggers look like trash

This is really sad for me because if you're familiar with my posts you know I consider Assassination on live to be a near-perfect spec.

4/10

Subtlety really feels awkward with this maintenance buff you need to cast from Stealth and charges of Shadow dance. First of all it's an action bar nightmare, second of all, it has even worse (read: none) AOE outside of a gimped version of FoK. The shadow theme is actually pretty cool but they failed to create a good gameplay experience with it.

Also, their artifact daggers look like shit

3/10

Outlaw on the other hand... is pretty incredible. Roll the bones is really neat for casual play and they give the option to take a more reliable Slice and Dice for more invested players. Having a pistol is far more fun than you would expect. Especially the quick Pistol Shot proc mechanic. Love it. Bribe is a really cool, fun long CD ability akin to Army of the Dead.

Their Artifacts, unlike the others actually look neat.

Blade Flurry is also a viable AOE mechanic, where in the other 2 cases there is literally nothing, almost to the point where you almost HAVE to quest as Outlaw because if you pick up 3-4 mobs you have to Vanish or you're going to die, unless you're geared.

Sabre Slash feels really nice and so does Run Through. They also get some neater Talents like Cannonball Barrage.

8/10

[Exhuman]

I'm afraid Legion will destroy my favorite class.

[RobertoCarlos]

I'm afraid Legion will destroy my favorite class.

shh its ok theres only dreams now.

[Mafic]

Spent a lot of time on alpha with all 3 rogue specs.

Assassination is bad
Subtlety is really bad
Outlaw is really fun


Assassination basically got the equivalent of the Arms Warrior's "Rend Gift". Like oh hey you are just throwing this stupid bleed back into our rotation? They did this with Garrote. I love Garrote as an out of stealth silence. I do not like Garrote as an extra button to hit to just keep a bleed up.. IMO that's what the Hemo talent should be for. If someone wants another bleed, they can take that.

Also without Dispatch procs, Assassination just feels really empty and boring. And worst of all, it's CD Vendetta is the most boring of all 3 specs. I think Assassination should get Killing Spree since Outlaw got a huge overhaul and is actually quite fun now.

Still a limited poison arsenal....

Artifact daggers look like trash

This is really sad for me because if you're familiar with my posts you know I consider Assassination on live to be a near-perfect spec.

4/10

Subtlety really feels awkward with this maintenance buff you need to cast from Stealth and charges of Shadow dance. First of all it's an action bar nightmare, second of all, it has even worse (read: none) AOE outside of a gimped version of FoK. The shadow theme is actually pretty cool but they failed to create a good gameplay experience with it.

Also, their artifact daggers look like shit

3/10

Outlaw on the other hand... is pretty incredible. Roll the bones is really neat for casual play and they give the option to take a more reliable Slice and Dice for more invested players. Having a pistol is far more fun than you would expect. Especially the quick Pistol Shot proc mechanic. Love it. Bribe is a really cool, fun long CD ability akin to Army of the Dead.

Their Artifacts, unlike the others actually look neat.

Blade Flurry is also a viable AOE mechanic, where in the other 2 cases there is literally nothing, almost to the point where you almost HAVE to quest as Outlaw because if you pick up 3-4 mobs you have to Vanish or you're going to die, unless you're geared.

Sabre Slash feels really nice and so does Run Through. They also get some neater Talents like Cannonball Barrage.

8/10

Assassination to me looks fun if you take Hemo, so right now I am inclined to say it is a solid 7/10. The loss of Dispatch though is obvious, because Dispatch really was important to the spec to break up the monotony. Without Dispatch the spec is way too simple and loses its dyanism (not like it had a lot compared to WoD Sub but it was something).

Sub has potential with the shadow dance charges, but the wacky way energy returns works I am going to say it is 5/10.

Outlaw is a very solid 8/10. Biggest problems is DreadBlades Curse HP loss, True Bearing fishing procs, and weak talents. Bribe cool down seems off given 30 minutes seems excessive.

[ro9ue]

Assassination to me looks fun if you take Hemo, so right now I am inclined to say it is a solid 7/10. The loss of Dispatch though really was important to the spec to break up the monotony.

That's interesting to me because I think Dispatch was the mechanic that breaks the monotony. Unless that's what you mean?

[Mafic]

That's interesting to me because I think Dispatch was the mechanic that breaks the monotony. Unless that's what you mean?

Haha yes that is what I meant.

[ro9ue]

Haha yes that is what I meant.

Oh ok then, same page.

[Deleted]

A new Build is coming and also some responses from our beloved blues ... oh what is that, nor answer on the given feedback?! Maybe they will let the new tweaks for rogues talk ... oh wait, only change we are getting is TotT is back and Bribe got another nerf that makes it relevant to an extreme extent (edit: seems to be bad data mining).

Nice Try Blizz, but please try harder or to say what I was thinking when reading the front page: ARE YOU FU**ING SH*TING ME !!!

[mindghosts]

I think sub is the new combat rogue who gets an active Killing Spree. Cool cool. I am really unhappy with outlaw and i feel they did a half assed job changing the spec up. I dont like the new pirate stuff or rng. I wish we had been given better choices in how to play the spec. Most of the talents and stuff lacks flavor. I feel they could have done a lot more with the gun. I wish the ranged kidney shot and riposte was optional. I wish we had been given more real swordsman abilities like flurry attacks. I wish the dice went back to its first builds as a talent. I wish Killing Spree was removed altogether and remade into a new improved ability.

I guess im just whining but yeah. Going sub in legion for shadowstrike. I always did enjoy teleporting around so i feel that playstyle fits me better. I still would like to see them completely rework outlaw tho and make it more exciting.

[JanCarlo]

Do you guys think any meaningful changes are gonna be made to the rogue specs? They're all in a pretty meh place right now and other than reverting the Shadow Dance passive thing, it doesn't seem like they've done much to address the (legitimate) concerns people have about rogues in Legion.

[rosebull]

I have the same feelings. Played my rogue since 2005. This is coming purely from a PvE Mythic progression raiding view.

I had a couple of issues with the class in WoD and my hopes and dreams were that they would address those issues in Legion. Now those dreams have turned into nightmares as they have completly ruined Subtlety and I regret even mentioning those issues in the first place as they seem insignificant now. All I wanted was a nerf of Blade Flurry or for them to give Blade Flurry to all 3 specs. Blade Flurry is what makes us have a mandatory Combat spec and forces us to collect 4 weapons in my opinion. I hate it. The other thing I wanted was for Backstab to finally be treated the same way as Shred (dev quote: "positional requirements are not fun"). They didn't change any of that.

The only reason people are relieved that Assassination feels almost unchanged is that literally everything else they touched about our class has turned to complete shit. Take a look at Subtlety Artifact: active ability is a joke, Shadow Nova is shit, everything is still based on the concept of a passive Shadow Dance and has not been touched since. Do they expect us to just forget about that like they obviously did?

All in all I have to admit that I had high hopes when they admitted that Legion Subtlety 1.0 with passive Shadow Dance didn't work and they seemed to listen to feedback and start a dialogue with us. Can't say those hopes are still there. They obviously don't care anymore and I have come to terms with not playing Subtlety in Legion.

Let's just pray they don't touch Assassination much more and make that shit too. Btw. the only thing they could have changed with Assassination is Vendetta. It seems like a horribly outdated and shitty CD. But please if all you can do is turn stuff to shit don't even touch Vendetta, I'll take it, thank you.

Dude its a game, if you don't like the changes theres many other games. It sounds like you need a very long vacation from WoW. Jesus.

[elfporn]

Do you guys think any meaningful changes are gonna be made to the rogue specs? They're all in a pretty meh place right now and other than reverting the Shadow Dance passive thing, it doesn't seem like they've done much to address the (legitimate) concerns people have about rogues in Legion.

I think they need to really really communicate more.

The only excuse i can think of for them is that they are still on the "first" alpha redesign phase, they have one spec left to make playable, and presumably will start the cycle over again refining each spec in roughly the same order they did initially.

All of which doesnt mean they will make major changes, but that's the only reason i can think of without saying they just dont give a shit.

Communication though, is whats really needed.

[Deleted]

From a PvP PoV (mainly - also raiding a bit)
Only played Sub until now and I hate what they did to it...
- removed shiv -> replaced by 1min cd (goremaw's bite)
- removed passive poison slow - now baked into nightblade
- removed shadow dance bar
- replaced snd by a shittier version of snd (shittier in that you have to use dance / vanish charges to keep it up)
- removed preparation ( double vanish / double evasion)
- removed garrote
- removed gouge
- have to choose between HaT and Smokebomb
- made rupture magic (dispellable)
(- removed energy glyph)
- leaving stealth now breaks blind / sap because you randomly explode for shadow damage (wtf blizzard?)
- they brought back tricks but it's still not even worth putting into your action bars (maybe for those mythic+ dungeons)
- removed customization of glyphs - in wod you use different ones depending on bracket (2s/3s) and comps you face
- from a pvp pov dance didn't change *that* much due to phantom assassin but from a pve PoV I hate the new random procc 3sec dance
- all lvl 90 talents look shitty
- lvl 45talents: anticipation is baseline for ret and monk and both classes are less likely to overcap their ressources in the first place ...
- sub plays completely different from how it played since cata / maybe even wotlk (cc class before

I hate what they did to sub - it's absolutely disgusting
What they have done until now kinda reminds me of the start of MOP when rogues were in the worst state ever pvpwise till they got talent reworks and buffs to blind and vanish
I never imagined anything would be worse than WoD but Blizzard managed to do it.
I desperately hope that there will still be a lot of changes till release but I'm pretty sure that it won't happen.

P.s.:
- don't like the new nameplates cause they're tiny as fuck (yes I use the bigger ones) but that can be solved by addons
- don't like how I can't change interface even with scripts (heard you can somehow use addons by deleting some folder?) but that's just alpha
- don't like the new non customizable combat text (+stealth / +combat ) why did they remove this? or am I just blind

[elfporn]

From a PvP PoV (mainly - also raiding a bit)
Only played Sub until now and I hate what they did to it...
- removed shiv -> replaced by 1min cd (goremaw's bite)
- removed passive poison slow - now baked into nightblade
- removed shadow dance bar
- replaced snd by a shittier version of snd (shittier in that you have to use dance / vanish charges to keep it up)
- removed preparation ( double vanish / double evasion)
- removed garrote
- removed gouge
- have to choose between HaT and Smokebomb
- made rupture magic (dispellable)
(- removed energy glyph)
- leaving stealth now breaks blind / sap because you randomly explode for shadow damage (wtf blizzard?)
- they brought back tricks but it's still not even worth putting into your action bars (maybe for those mythic+ dungeons)
- removed customization of glyphs - in wod you use different ones depending on bracket (2s/3s) and comps you face
- from a pvp pov dance didn't change *that* much due to phantom assassin but from a pve PoV I hate the new random procc 3sec dance
- all lvl 90 talents look shitty
- lvl 45talents: anticipation is baseline for ret and monk and both classes are less likely to overcap their ressources in the first place ...
- sub plays completely different from how it played since cata / maybe even wotlk (cc class before

I hate what they did to sub - it's absolutely disgusting
What they have done until now kinda reminds me of the start of MOP when rogues were in the worst state ever pvpwise till they got talent reworks and buffs to blind and vanish
I never imagined anything would be worse than WoD but Blizzard managed to do it.
I desperately hope that there will still be a lot of changes till release but I'm pretty sure that it won't happen.

P.s.:
- don't like the new nameplates cause they're tiny as fuck (yes I use the bigger ones) but that can be solved by addons
- don't like how I can't change interface even with scripts (heard you can somehow use addons by deleting some folder?) but that's just alpha
- don't like the new non customizable combat text (+stealth / +combat ) why did they remove this? or am I just blind

I just want to reiterate that all classes are getting this pvp treatment - CC across the board is being removed and/or re-allocated to be spec specific.

So while you may look at these changes through the lens of live pvp and think OMG WE WILL SUCK DONKEY BALLS, in legion, it will be absolutely completely different, for everyone.

That's not to say that there are not issues present that they need to fix.