Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Deleted]

I don't get the nostalgia of the Vanilla fans. In fact, every time I wanted to re-play any game I liked some time ago, I get bored very fast, and often even disappointed. While I don't like everything what happens with retail WoW, I rather don't want them to move backwards like with the no-flying abomination which is so en vogue with devs currently without any reason, or cutting down on content you can accomplish with queueable dungeons. I don't want a game where most of the specs are badly balanced and not playable in relevant content, I don't want a game where most of the cool zones, mounts, pets, and equipment is missing, I don't want a game which is full of grind (I would also like to reduce grind in retail WoW, but Vanilla was surely worse. Just think of fishing...). I also would like to keep my BE, Goblin, Draenei characters, as well as my Horde Paladins, Alliance Shamans, DKs, Monk and DH characters. I also enjoy pet battling from time to time, and have more fun soloing legacy raids than running them on the "appropriate" level. Been there, done that, want to add a new experience in my game, not living in the "Groundhog Day" forever.

And I bet if they should ever install Vanilla servers, then this will costs us more than a raid tier.

[Dergiab]

I don't get the nostalgia of the Vanilla fans. In fact, every time I wanted to re-play any game I liked some time ago, I get bored very fast, and often even disappointed. While I don't like everything what happens with retail WoW, I rather don't want them to move backwards like with the no-flying abomination which is so en vogue with devs currently without any reason, or cutting down on content you can accomplish with queueable dungeons. I don't want a game where most of the specs are badly balanced and not playable in relevant content, I don't want a game where most of the cool zones, mounts, pets, and equipment is missing, I don't want a game which is full of grind (I would also like to reduce grind in retail WoW, but Vanilla was surely worse. Just think of fishing...). I also would like to keep my BE, Goblin, Draenei characters, as well as my Horde Paladins, Alliance Shamans, DKs, Monk and DH characters. I also enjoy pet battling from time to time, and have more fun soloing legacy raids than running them on the "appropriate" level. Been there, done that, want to add a new experience in my game, not living in the "Groundhog Day" forever.

And I bet if they should ever install Vanilla servers, then this will costs us more than a raid tier.

Depends on the game. I replayed Baldur's Gate recently with the Enhanced edition release, but like you said I got bored pretty fast. But in contrast I played Fallout 1 and 2 through Steam, and I was just as hooked as of 15-20 years ago.

And unlike WoW, I can play old Fallout despite Fallout 4 being the latest.

While not playing Vanilla, I played Burning Crusade and Wrath of the lich king very recently and I can say I want these back rather than anything Cata and beyond. I would prefer TBC but I take Vanilla over retail any day.

[Deleted]

You don't know how much it would cost to create these servers or to maintain them. Saying a 'minimal' cost is bullshit because you don't know how many employees would need to be hired/trained to handle extra servers. Blizz letting people play older games is all well and good but that is not the same as maintaining a MMO vs something like Diablo 2. TOTALLY different games and the amount of things required to maintain them.

Hell you don't even know if there would be an extra fee and then you say that 'fee' would go to current retail WoW? You don't know how Blizz allocates funds so stop making up fantasies that get you your Vanilla realms.

Everquest and Runescape are NOT WoW. Period. Smalltime shit like Everquest is not requiring the amount of servers/manpower/money/time that Vanilla realms would take to get going and you KNOW that. Same shit with Runescape, it isn't the same thing. Legacy servers ARE different than a single player game as well. You can't just wave it all away and wish really hard for Vanilla. I mean you can but that won't accomplish shit.

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Here is another example of making bullshit up, the post above mine.

about the costs: Said by mark kern ex wow dev.

"Let’s put that in perspective. When we planned World of Warcraft, we only expected 1M sold and 500k active. And yet..and yet that was enough to bet the whole company on making WoW. It was the most expensive game Blizzard had ever made, and a huge risk. And yet, we would have been happy with 1M accounts back then. So I don’t understand this talk about 850k account not being worthwhile. That’s bunk. And you know what? With Blizzard officially behind legacy servers, you would see far more than 1M account re-activations. If a relatively unknown private server can reach 850k, then think what putting the Blizzard name behind it could do…far, far more.

As for 150k active, my understanding is that was measured over a 10 day window. The industry standard for measuring active is 30 days. I bet the 30 day number is higher, but even at 150k, during vanilla WoW we only expected around 450k active subscribers, and it would have been a huge success. Nostalrius is not that far off from what would have been a home run for us at the time. Of course, we ended up doing much, much more than that, but I’m talking about what we would have been thrilled with in the beginning and been very profitable."

so if they created an entire mmo expecting 500k subs, explain to me how making a legacy server is not profitable.

[vitor210]

There is a reason and that is because the points you make are factually wrong. If they hire additional developers to work on a legacy server that money could be spent to improve the main game. Period. You cannot argue this.

While you are correct nobody is forcing us to play it people will play it which means splitting the main player base further which hurts the main game.

Finally on your third point that is only true if the amount of money made is more than what is invested which is likely not going to be the case as it would be a big undertaking to create those servers.

Oh you sweet summer child, you still live in a fairy tale world. You honestly believe more devs = better game? :/ Just remember how few people was working on Vanilla and how big the team is now in Legion.

[SirreASDF]

so if they created an entire mmo expecting 500k subs, explain to me how making a legacy server is not profitable.

Not arguing against you, just things that popped up in my mind. It could probably be profitable, but considering the current revenue flow for a big ass company like Blizzard that might noe be enough. I doubt a company like Blizzard would go for EVERY project simply because it had a guaranteed profit. It could be profitable but not provide enough profit to really be worth it either way.

Just saying, there's more to it than "profit".

That said, I would very much like to see Legacy servers myself, and thoroughly enjoyed Nostalrius, even if my time at level 60 only was a couple of months.

[Eleccybubb]

Tbh like I said we will find out in like just over 2 weeks what their plans are if they have any that is.

[Beazy]

so if they created an entire mmo expecting 500k subs, explain to me how making a legacy server is not profitable.

Who cares what Mark Kern thinks. I wont even go into what a shit stain that guy is.


But, 500k subs in 2004 was unheard of, that is 100% true. But at the same time that number has no meaning in 2016, especially from the company who once had 12 million subs. Blizzard doesn't invest time and money into things only 1 million people will play. 1 million subs is chump change to Blizzard now. They are so far beyond that small scale thinking its not even an option. You can see how the philosophy has changed at blizzard over the years after WoWs success. They know the market is 100 times larger than what they originally thought, and each new game they make, shoots to hit that market target full force.

Im sorry guys, but creating,maintaining, and updating infrastructure and software for 1 million users simply isn't worth their time. Its just not. =o[

Your best possible bet would be a 3rd party running the legacy servers, licensed by Blizzard, similar to WoW China.

[Seefer]

Do you really think running an Everquest server takes as much money/manpower/servers? Really? Is this something you really need explained? I fucking hope not. Everquest does not have anywhere near the population of WoW, nor does it require the same hardware to run considering how fucking old it is. EQ was old when WoW came out.

You make it sound like Legacy servers would have the amount of players as current WoW, Everquest 2 was released the same year as Vanilla WoW so there is that.

[Pann]

Who cares what Mark Kern thinks. I wont even go into what a shit stain that guy is.


But, 500k subs in 2004 was unheard of, that is 100% true. But at the same time that number has no meaning in 2016, especially from the company who once had 12 million subs. Blizzard doesn't invest time and money into things only 1 million people will play. 1 million subs is chump change to Blizzard now. They are so far beyond that small scale thinking its not even an option. You can see how the philosophy has changed at blizzard over the years after WoWs success. They know the market is 100 times larger than what they originally thought, and each new game they make, shoots to hit that market target full force.

Im sorry guys, but creating,maintaining, and updating infrastructure and software for 1 million users simply isn't worth their time. Its just not. =o[

Your best possible bet would be a 3rd party running the legacy servers, licensed by Blizzard, similar to WoW China.

Assuming Legion settles at around the same level of subs as when last reported (approx. 5-5.5million) then a player base of 1 million would be equivalent to roughly 35-40% of the Western WoW player base and represent a yearly income in excess of $150million. I would not call this chump change or small scale.

[Beazy]

Assuming Legion settles at around the same level of subs as when last reported (approx. 5-5.5million) then a player base of 1 million would be equivalent to roughly 35-40% of the Western WoW player base and represent a yearly income in excess of $150million. I would not call this chump change or small scale.

You're assuming 1 million people are willing to pay 15 a month for a 10 year old version of a 12 year old game.

I can assure you, Nost would not have been successful with a sub fee. Do you know of any other private servers that have a sub? I cant think of any, the only other pServer I know of is still F2P at this moment.


And considering Hearthstone makes in a month what aPserver would make in a year (if your estimates are correct), it most certainly is chump change.

You have to think of it as a business decision. Do they want to hire and dedicate 10 people to 150 million profit a year, or hire and add 10 people to the hearthstone team to increase hearthstone revenue by 12% a year?

[Pann]

You're assuming 1 million people are willing to pay 15 a month for a 10 year old version of a 12 year old game.

I can assure you, Nost would not have been successful with a sub fee. Do you know of any other private servers that have a sub? I cant think of any, the only other pServer I know of is still F2P at this moment.

I am not assuming anything. You were the one that threw out the figure of 1 million players and proclaimed it to be small scale I am simply pointing out that this would not be the case.

No-one can say that for sure with the data available, although I am inclined to agree that it would not have been as successful with a sub fee. To be honest I did not know the names of any private servers until the news about Nost. broke so you're asking the wrong person. However not ten pages ago there was a very dull and pointless, circular argument about how all of them, including Nost, ask(ed) for donations with some of them having stores that sell in game items/services which would imply that private servers are able to cover their upkeep (and in some cases no doubt turn a profit) without the need of sub fee.

[Shridevi]

Some people here act like they own Activision Blizzard stock. Give me a break. These people don't care about risk assessment and possible losses to Blizzard's infinite wealth, they're just addicted to Legion. Listening to some people hypothesize about Blizzard's finances, source code, lost metadata, human resource allocation is truly cringeworthy. It's like reading Game of Thrones fanfiction in Youtube comments.

There is a wealth of information regarding the immense demand and profitability of legacy servers which some conveniently choose to ignore. Not to mention that nearly every famous WoW streamer has pledged to stream legacy servers should they become available.

We want to play the game that we paid for. FF7 is being rebooted for casuals, however we still have access to the original FF7. Not with WoW. Blizzard closed down the closest think to vanilla, which is Nostalrius.

Many of us have spent thousands of dollars on WoW. We helped get the game to where it is today. We are patiently waiting so that we can PAY for vanilla without being pirates. Yet you act like we're spoiling your party, trying to bankrupt your company. We don't demand that flying, transmog, battle pets, pandas, and instant queues be stripped from the game forever, because that's selfish. Legacy servers are a compromise for that reason, and for the reason that if Blizzard does not announce legacy then Nostalrius will reopen, in which case we will definitely be giving $0 to Blizzard for vanilla.

The arguments against vanilla servers just get more and more subjective and pitiful as this thread goes on. Worst of all is the defeatist, whiny attitude, as if missing data such as NPC health is tantamount to an impure, $1 billion project and therefore completely worth abandoning. Or the false concern for developer resources, when there's such a thing called "hiring" done by a department called "HR." Let's completely ignore that Nostalrius did it for free. It's this weird, pervasive, basement-dweller attitude. Actual software developers solve problems and move onto the next one, because it's fun. Good lord.

[Eleccybubb]

Some people here act like they own Activision Blizzard stock. Give me a break. These people don't care about risk assessment and possible losses to Blizzard's infinite wealth, they're just addicted to Legion. Listening to some people hypothesize about Blizzard's finances, source code, lost metadata, human resource allocation is truly cringeworthy. It's like reading Game of Thrones fanfiction in Youtube comments.

There is a wealth of information regarding the immense demand and profitability of legacy servers which some conveniently choose to ignore. Not to mention that nearly every famous WoW streamer has pledged to stream legacy servers should they become available.

We want to play the game that we paid for. FF7 is being rebooted for casuals, however we still have access to the original FF7. Not with WoW. Blizzard closed down the closest think to vanilla, which is Nostalrius.

Many of us have spent thousands of dollars on WoW. We helped get the game to where it is today. We are patiently waiting so that we can PAY for vanilla without being pirates. Yet you act like we're spoiling your party, trying to bankrupt your company. We don't demand that flying, transmog, battle pets, pandas, and instant queues be stripped from the game forever, because that's selfish. Legacy servers are a compromise for that reason, and for the reason that if Blizzard does not announce legacy then Nostalrius will reopen, in which case we will definitely be giving $0 to Blizzard for vanilla.

The arguments against vanilla servers just get more and more subjective and pitiful as this thread goes on. Worst of all is the defeatist, whiny attitude, as if missing data such as NPC health is tantamount to an impure, $1 billion project and therefore completely worth abandoning. Or the false concern for developer resources, when there's such a thing called "hiring" done by a department called "HR." Let's completely ignore that Nostalrius did it for free. It's this weird, pervasive, basement-dweller attitude. Actual software developers solve problems and move onto the next one, because it's fun. Good lord.

I agree the arguments are getting silly but one thing from you. I doubt they care you have spent thousands of dollars. I doubt they care I have either. And I agree with you you basically want what you want while we keep what is currently there that is no issue. Also the only way I see Nost reopening is if they do it somewhere they cannot be shutdown this time but if I recall they were struggling money wise before the shutdown?

[Tome]

I agree the arguments are getting silly but one thing from you. I doubt they care you have spent thousands of dollars. I doubt they care I have either. And I agree with you you basically want what you want while we keep what is currently there that is no issue. Also the only way I see Nost reopening is if they do it somewhere they cannot be shutdown this time but if I recall they were struggling money wise before the shutdown?

No, they were not struggling with money. That was some quick rumour that appeared after its shutdown because people wanted to say that Classic/Vanilla is not profitable.

They had no money issue, and that's not the reason why they shut down.

[Eleccybubb]

No, they were not struggling with money. That was some quick rumour that appeared after its shutdown because people wanted to say that Classic/Vanilla is not profitable.

They had no money issue, and that's not the reason why they shut down.

Ah I see then my apologies. Thought that was the case. But like I said if they do ever set up again they would be smart to set up where they can't be shutdown.

[Beazy]

I am not assuming anything. You were the one that threw out the figure of 1 million players and proclaimed it to be small scale I am simply pointing out that this would not be the case.

No-one can say that for sure with the data available, although I am inclined to agree that it would not have been as successful with a sub fee. To be honest I did not know the names of any private servers until the news about Nost. broke so you're asking the wrong person. However not ten pages ago there was a very dull and pointless, circular argument about how all of them, including Nost, ask(ed) for donations with some of them having stores that sell in game items/services which would imply that private servers are able to cover their upkeep (and in some cases no doubt turn a profit) without the need of sub fee.

You did throw out a big number: "....then a player base of 1 million would be equiva...." I was responding directly to that figure. Which is why I reference your estimate in my post. Im simply trying to tell you that a business that makes billions(s) of dollars a year, isnt going to dedicate resources to something that isnt a sure thing, especially when the amount of money they can make is so much smaller than all of their current IPs.

Im not saying a 3rd party wouldnt find this business model attractive, I bet they do, someone could make some serious money licensing Legacy WoW IP from Blizzard. It WOULD be worth their effort, just not Blizzards.

[Deficineiron]

Can you enlighten us how running an Everquest/Runescape server is different from Vanilla? Since you seem to know.

this is too funny. he will just say it is more work for wow and ignore the much MUCH higher potential revenue which offsets this. WHy do you respond to him? there are better things to do in life and even on the forum. yes the legacy older mmo servers have worked out well, but since wow is so much, much bigger a thing with vastly bigger potential legacy revenue, it wont work because it will cost more. write 100 times and you will see the forum 'light.'

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There is a reason and that is because the points you make are factually wrong. If they hire additional developers to work on a legacy server that money could be spent to improve the main game. Period. You cannot argue this.

While you are correct nobody is forcing us to play it people will play it which means splitting the main player base further which hurts the main game.

Finally on your third point that is only true if the amount of money made is more than what is invested which is likely not going to be the case as it would be a big undertaking to create those servers.

I don't think anything in recent history establishes that blizzard is interested in increasing investment in retail wow development. look at all the dropped raids, ZONES(NETHERSTORM), etc.

anyone looking at this over game history would reasonably conclude retail wow was well into the 'milk revenue while reducing investment' phase.

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You make it sound like Legacy servers would have the amount of players as current WoW, Everquest 2 was released the same year as Vanilla WoW so there is that.

much more likely blizz has a range of projections of % of current and of FORMER western players (there are a lot). They would expect of course the initial interest spike and a fade to some plateau.

However, depending on how it was tied to legion/retail subs, it also might mitigate the part-time subber phenomenon by providing a more time-consuming alternate gamestate to play when they beat the latest raid boss on most difficulties again.


it is certainly a complex set of factors. the major concern for legacy proponents is they start changing legacy tuning to accomodate retail players reduced expectations of general difficulty (or in forum lingo Tedium).

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I am not assuming anything. You were the one that threw out the figure of 1 million players and proclaimed it to be small scale I am simply pointing out that this would not be the case.

No-one can say that for sure with the data available, although I am inclined to agree that it would not have been as successful with a sub fee. To be honest I did not know the names of any private servers until the news about Nost. broke so you're asking the wrong person. However not ten pages ago there was a very dull and pointless, circular argument about how all of them, including Nost, ask(ed) for donations with some of them having stores that sell in game items/services which would imply that private servers are able to cover their upkeep (and in some cases no doubt turn a profit) without the need of sub fee.

as you know of course, 1m may be low. are there any comparison data for the other mmo legacy server projects subs vs historical subs/former subs? i know i saw some kinds of numbers for rsos and it made a classic wow project look like an easy 9-digiter (the kotick criteria in his own words)

[shyguybman]

if I was Blizz I would make people buy the current expansion to have access to the Legacy servers

[Pann]

You did throw out a big number: "....then a player base of 1 million would be equiva...." I was responding directly to that figure. Which is why I reference your estimate in my post. Im simply trying to tell you that a business that makes billions(s) of dollars a year, isnt going to dedicate resources to something that isnt a sure thing, especially when the amount of money they can make is so much smaller than all of their current IPs.

Im not saying a 3rd party wouldnt find this business model attractive, I bet they do, someone could make some serious money licensing Legacy WoW IP from Blizzard. It WOULD be worth their effort, just not Blizzards.

I did not, it was your estimate not mine. My post was in response to your claim " Blizzard doesn't invest time and money into things only 1 million people will play. 1 million subs is chump change to Blizzard now" which is clearly not the case when you consider that the Western Wow population is likely to be around 2-2.5 times that size.

Blizzard are not going to license WoW in any region where they are free to operate. If the profit from a Legacy service is not worth Blizzard' while then why would the profit less a 3rd party's expenses be worth it?

[Deleted]

Who cares what Mark Kern thinks. I wont even go into what a shit stain that guy is.


But, 500k subs in 2004 was unheard of, that is 100% true. But at the same time that number has no meaning in 2016, especially from the company who once had 12 million subs. Blizzard doesn't invest time and money into things only 1 million people will play. 1 million subs is chump change to Blizzard now. They are so far beyond that small scale thinking its not even an option. You can see how the philosophy has changed at blizzard over the years after WoWs success. They know the market is 100 times larger than what they originally thought, and each new game they make, shoots to hit that market target full force.

Im sorry guys, but creating,maintaining, and updating infrastructure and software for 1 million users simply isn't worth their time. Its just not. =o[

Your best possible bet would be a 3rd party running the legacy servers, licensed by Blizzard, similar to WoW China.

Ok I don't want to be an asshole but i will quote you on everything you said and make you see how retard it is everything that you wrote.

"But at the same time that number has no meaning in 2016" - 500k subs is 7,5 millions dollar a month how that can be refereed to as no meaning i don't know, but also most mmo's would kill to have a stable 500k subsciptions.

"especially from the company who once had 12 million subs" - "once" and "had" they currently don't, legacy servers will only boost their sub numbers.

"Blizzard doesn't invest time and money into things only 1 million people will play" - they created a whole game on expectation of getting that amount of players, if 1mill players is enough for them to develop and create an entire game, why is implementing an already created version of that game not a good investment.

"1 million subs is chump change to Blizzard now, They are so far beyond that small scale thinking its not even an option" - yes 7.5millions dollars a month, 90 millions a year is trash money nobody cares about that.

"They know the market is 100 times larger than what they originally thought, and each new game they make, shoots to hit that market target full force." - exactly each new game, a complete new game that they have to create, legacy servers already have all the artwork and most of the scripting and engine completed they only need to adjust what they already have, and that costs nothing compared to creating a complete new game.


so I hope that you understand the huge amount of retardation that was present in your post, don't mean to insult but you're making no sense at all.