Noam Chomsky (LOL!)

[alexw]

So actions don't determine whether one is right-wing or left-wing? What uh, what does, then?

No that is exactly the point everything including his actions showed that he was right wing.

He banned parties of the left. The other parties of the right went into alliance with him. That during his rise he drained support from other right-wing parties like the DNVP -

Reflecting the changed political dynamics caused by the Young Plan referendum, in the election of 14 September 1930 the DNVP's share of the vote dropped dramatically to 7% while the NSDAP's share rose up equally dramatically to 17% (compared to the NSDAP's 2.6% of the vote in 1928). This marked the NSDAP's electoral breakthrough to the mainstream.[107] Since the NSDAP did very well in areas that had traditionally voted for the DNVP like East Prussia and Pomerania, the German historian Martin Broszat wrote that would strongly suggest that most of the DNVP voters had deserted their old party for the NSDAP

That Hitler showed absolute hatred to anyone with ideologically left leanings since he believed that left-politics was a concoction of international Jewry. He called it Jewish Marxism -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

It is simply unbelievable that he was of the left given his absolute loathing of Jews when he also believed left-politics was a creation of the Jews. That he would be part of the movement that was run by Jews? Good grief you must be stupid if you believe that.

[Nadiru]

OK Hitler was a socialist. The fact he outlawed socialist and communist parties, outlawed trade unions, went to war with the soviet union, spoke out against Marx and socialism in his speeches and is generally considered to be the epitomy of the ideological opposite to socialism by every serious political or historical writer/academic ever, none of that matters because some people on the internet say he is.

Nice sarcasm tell. I didn't say he was a socialist, I said he was left-wing. And none of the things which you espoused really argue that he isn't left-wing: Stalin banned trade unions, Communist China also fought the Soviet Union later on, and appeals to authority don't work unless you can make the arguments which the authorities are making.

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That Hitler showed absolute hatred to anyone with ideologically left leanings since he believed that left-politics was a concoction of international Jewry. He called it Jewish Marxism -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

It is simply unbelievable that he was of the left given his absolute loathing of Jews when he also believed left-politics was a creation of the Jews. That he would be part of the movement that was run by Jews? Good grief you must be stupid if you believe that.

Hitler also loved Italian Fascism, which was emphatically not anti-Semitic. Mussolini took great strides to not put the Jews out. So yes, Hitler is a hypocrite. But him being a fascist doesn't necessarily entail him being right-wing. Look at the nazi party platform, and also look at the Italian fascist platform.

[Shadowferal]

Political views of Adolf Hitler

Historians and biographers note some difficulty in identifying Adolf Hitler's political views. His writings and methods were often adapted to need and circumstance, although there were some steady themes, including anti-semitism, anti-communism, anti-parliamentarianism, German Lebensraum (living space), belief in the superiority of an "Aryan race" and an extreme form of German nationalism. Hitler personally claimed he was fighting against Jewish Marxism.

Social conservatism
Extreme homophobia leading to the systematic persecution of homosexuals. Persecution of "degenerate art". Strong rejection of premarital sex, prostitution, pornography and "sexual vice". Smoking, drinking and use of cosmetics were discouraged. Anti-intellectualism. Revindication of a glorious past as the key to a glorious future.

Anti-communism
In Hitler's mind, communism was the primary enemy of Germany, an enemy he often mentions in Mein Kampf. During the trial for his involvement in the Beer-Hall Putsch, Hitler claimed that his singular goal was to assist the German government in "fighting Marxism". Marxism, Bolshevism, and Communism were interchangeable terms for Hitler as evidenced by their use in Mein Kampf.

According to Hitler, Marxism was a Jewish strategy to subjugate Germany and the world. Marxism was a mental and political form of slavery.
------------------

Hehe...sounds like Ayn Rand.

[Gheld]

Yes, Hitler was everybody I disagree with.

He was actually what would now be called a Keynesian, economically. So pretty much all the partisan shills always trying to say that people they disagree with are espousing Hitler's policies are basically just being immature and attempting to shut down proper discussion.

And do you know who actually physically carried out the acts of killing all the Jews during World War 2? Shills. Shills are responsible for all the evils of the world.

[Forogil]

OK Hitler was a socialist. The fact he outlawed socialist and communist parties, outlawed trade unions, went to war with the soviet union, spoke out against Marx and socialism in his speeches

Those facts are true - but at the same time Hitler was a national-socialist, and he went to war in pact with the Soviet Union; where the Bolsheviks had killed the socialists Mensheviks and other left-leaning people who didn't fit into the new party line. And free trade unions are normally banned in communist dictatorships.

Clearly Hitler isn't Marxist or communist - but wanted a socialism where the state controls the capital - without caring about the ownership; with the perspective that both communism and capitalism are Jewish plots.

And until the night of the long knives (btw - the Dalaran cleansing during MoP got me thinking of that) the National-Socialist Workers Party of Germany (note how seldom the full name is used) had an even more leftist wing - but even afterwards they built houses, cars, holiday centers, and highways for the workers (provided the workers were of the proper race).

It is clear that Hitler and e.g. M. Friedman are not of the same right-wing.

[May90]

I think you are wasting your time here. The fact that Hitler murdered millions of self-professed socialist and communists should be fairly representative of the fact he wasn't a socialist, you do wonder about people who can't accept such an obvious fact.

Hitler wasn't a socialist? Are you serious? What was the party he created called again? Oh shocker, socialists sometimes fight each other, just like capitalists sometimes fight each other.

To be fair, yes, I know Hitler was more to the right than the left, and he wasn't a socialist in the strict meaning of the word. But it isn't related to your argument in any way.

According to your logic Stalin must also have been a right-winger. It is a fucking stupid argument.

No, it is so according to YOUR logic.

[zorkuus]

Thank you for validating my claim that the right-wingers criticizing Chomsky in this thread are just not very smart. You might as well have posted a meme or something.

I'm center-leftwing but happy to rustle your jimmies with a one liner.

[Mehrunes]

As far as Nazis were concerned, they thought themselves to be neither left nor right wing. Sort of a third way type of deal before US made it cool. In practice it leaned heavily towards the right, at least in most areas (sort of like US under third way politicians). But to outright call them left wing is most likely caused by conflating left wing and socialism.

No, it is so according to YOUR logic.

Their what?

I'm center-leftwing but happy to rustle your jimmies with a one liner.

Obviously, you aren't real (center)-leftwing. Since you apparently missed your advanta sensitivity training, it's them who decide that.

[Deleted]

I'm center-leftwing but happy to rustle your jimmies with a one liner.

You contribute "one-liners" because you aren't smart enough to compose longer sentences.

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Hitler wasn't a socialist? Are you serious?

These things are decided by academics who spend their lives studying these things. No one has ever seriously defined Hitler or socialism as a form of fascism, because it is the diammetric opposite, regardless of their political prejudices.

Your opinion makes about as much difference to that as you stating that gravity doesn't work. Physics doesn't change because you don't understand something.

[GennGreymane]

*eats popcorn*

this thread...

[May90]

These things are decided by academics who spend their lives studying these things. No one has ever seriously defined Hitler or socialism as a form of fascism, because it is the diammetric opposite, regardless of their political prejudices.

Your opinion makes about as much difference to that as you stating that gravity doesn't work. Physics doesn't change because you don't understand something.

You are never addressing people's points, you just keep saying that they don't know/understand something when they disagree with you. That's hardly an argument. You can believe whatever you want. Here is an article for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Read the first two words of it. Doesn't ring a bell?

[Deleted]

*eats popcorn*

this thread...

I think I can finally say:
You're popcorn reverence really makes sense for once, holy shit this discussion is crazy good.
Please pass the popcorn and please tell me its salted..

[GennGreymane]

I think I can finally say:
You're popcorn reverence really makes sense for once, holy shit this discussion is crazy good.
Please pass the popcorn and please tell me its salted..

*makes salted popcorn*
*hands it to woozie*

[Daelak]

Hitler also loved Italian Fascism, which was emphatically not anti-Semitic. Mussolini took great strides to not put the Jews out. So yes, Hitler is a hypocrite. But him being a fascist doesn't necessarily entail him being right-wing. Look at the nazi party platform, and also look at the Italian fascist platform.

To Hitler and Mussolini, their citizenry were merely expendable cogs in the never-ending pursuit of national purity. The Nazi platform was a fantastical vision of what future Germany would look like for the right people, not during WW2. They were authoritarians, just like all the "communist" countries in Asia during the 20th century as well. They were selling a future utopia in order to consolidate power in the present.

[Nadiru]

To Hitler and Mussolini, their citizenry were merely expendable cogs in the never-ending pursuit of national purity. The Nazi platform was a fantastical vision of what future Germany would look like for the right people, not during WW2. They were authoritarians, just like all the "communist" countries in Asia during the 20th century as well. They were selling a future utopia in order to consolidate power in the present.

Left-wingers are not any more libertarian or authoritarian than their right-wing counterparts. Authoritarian left-wing regimes have and do exist, so citing their authoritarian nature does not imply that they are not left-wing. Also, to Mussolini, Fascism was primarily an ideology not a racial thing. Mussolini did not think there were people who simply "didn't fit" in with Fascist doctrine, only ideas which didn't fit in.

[Deleted]

You are never addressing people's points, you just keep saying that they don't know/understand something when they disagree with you. That's hardly an argument. You can believe whatever you want. Here is an article for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism

Read the first two words of it. Doesn't ring a bell?

Did you read more than those two words? There's an entire section of the article you linked to which refutes your point "The majority of scholars identify Nazism in practice as a form of far-right politics".

The reason I don't really bother to argue this stuff is because it is quite impossible.to have a rational conversation with any one who cannot read more than two words of an article they link to. And let's be clear about this: you are not in a debate. There is no debate that rain is wet.

You know, I went to university to study things. We had to read books and shit which were expensive and required going to a library. I myself was lucky-most people just had no chance to study because of poverty or geography or whatever. Now you can access limitless information through the web at the click of a mouse. You cannot even do that. It is kind of insulting for you to piss on the enormous privileges access to that technology offers you.

To answer your central point: the fact that the word socialism is in the name of a party or government. There are liberal democrat parties around the world which are explicitly authoritarian (eg Vladimir Zhirinovsky's old party in russia) or "socialist" republics which are now freemarket capitalist states (Vietnam). There's a variety of reasons for this but the main one is factionalism and populist appeal colliding with the actuality of a government.

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To Hitler and Mussolini, their citizenry were merely expendable cogs in the never-ending pursuit of national purity. The Nazi platform was a fantastical vision of what future Germany would look like for the right people, not during WW2. They were authoritarians, just like all the "communist" countries in Asia during the 20th century as well. They were selling a future utopia in order to consolidate power in the present.

This isn't exclusive to authoritarianism. Conservatives have their freemarket utopian ideal which never manifests itself.

[Daelak]

Left-wingers are not any more libertarian or authoritarian than their right-wing counterparts. Authoritarian left-wing regimes have and do exist, so citing their authoritarian nature does not imply that they are not left-wing.

But a hypothetical "left wing" regime wouldn't be authoritarian by Marx's description of what communism is.

[Nadiru]

But a hypothetical "left wing" regime wouldn't be authoritarian by Marx's description of what communism is.

Marx is not the end-all, be-all of the left.

[May90]

Did you read more than those two words? There's an entire section of the article you linked to which refutes your point "The majority of scholars identify Nazism in practice as a form of far-right politics".

The reason I don't really bother to argue this stuff is because it is quite impossible.to have a rational conversation with any one who cannot read more than two words of an article they link to. And let's be clear about this: you are not in a debate. There is no debate that rain is wet.

You know, I went to university to study things. We had to read books and shit which were expensive and required going to a library. I myself was lucky-most people just had no chance to study because of poverty or geography or whatever. Now you can access limitless information through the web at the click of a mouse. You cannot even do that. It is kind of insulting for you to piss on the enormous privileges access to that technology offers you.

If you want to refer to reading, how about you read a bit above and find my comment in which I precisely said that Hitler's regime was to the right? Why, mate, why? Why employ jerkish attitude in criticizing someone for something that, actually, you should criticize yourself for instead? I was commenting solely the statement that "Hitler wasn't a socialist", which is false. Not all kinds of socialism are leftist; National Socialism is to the right, but it is still a form of socialism.

To answer your central point: the fact that the word socialism is in the name of a party or government. There are liberal democrat parties around the world which are explicitly authoritarian (eg Vladimir Zhirinovsky's old party in russia) or "socialist" republics which are now freemarket capitalist states (Vietnam). There's a variety of reasons for this but the main one is factionalism and populist appeal colliding with the actuality of a government.

National Socialism is a commonly accepted term nowadays. Few will disagree that Hitler's regime was based on National Socialism.

[tehealadin]

So you mean the american right wing then?

Anyone who does this, right wingers, and left wingers- the people I referred to as regressive leftists, identify as being left wing. And they aren't confined to the US.