Mythic HFC Kill Order with Pugs

[Fayenoor]

So, we have managed to PuG ourselves to 6/13 Mythic with around 13 guildies, 4 regular friends and rest Pugs. We do have someone in the group with a portal to upstairs.

So, we skipped Gorefiend and went straight to Socrethar. I would like some advice on the order of the next few bosses.

I would like to pick the following order:
Ishkar -> Zakuun -> Gorefiend.

What is the relative difficulty difference between M Tyrant and M Gorefiend?

Problem with Gorefiend is that it takes us a whole night (2-3 hours) to reach him. And we only do Mythics for like 5 hours a week. And Gorefiend is a PITA. And our best attendance days are always Tuesdays. With upper level bosses, we can go straight for the "progression one" on Tuesday and then spend the other raid night clearing farm stuff below.

Extending raid is not an option at the moment, both gearwise and because we PuG 2-3 (Pugs dont like to get saved to a Gorefiend wipe group in general.)

[Deja Thoris]

I think Iskar and Zakuun are good calls.

Gorefiend and Tyrant are probably equal in difficulty somewhat. Where they differ is the nature of the fights. Gorefiend just feels like a cockblock because you wipe in less than 2 minutes. Tyrant you can get further and feel (correctly or not) that you are getting somewhere so its less demoralizing.

[Fayenoor]

I think Iskar and Zakuun are good calls.

Gorefiend and Tyrant are probably equal in difficulty somewhat. Where they differ is the nature of the fights. Gorefiend just feels like a cockblock because you wipe in less than 2 minutes. Tyrant you can get further and feel (correctly or not) that you are getting somewhere so its less demoralizing.

Thanks a lot.

If you believe that Tyrant and Gorefiend are of equal difficulty, then I would pick Tyrant before Gorefiend, since it is literally just 1 boss (Socrethar) away. From what little I understand about the two fights from these forums and watching videos, Tyrant is essentially a gear and throughput check; while Gorefiend is both a gear check as well as strategy/coordination nightmare.

It will probably take us atleast another 3 resets to kill Ishkar and Zakuun. So that's 3 resets worth of gear from 6 bosses including 2 pc tier. With max rings and valor upgrades this will probably help more with Tyrant than Gorefiend I guess.

[Adramelch]

Gorefiend is not a gear check really. It's the least gear check boss. How many warlocks do you have?

[Fayenoor]

Gorefiend is not a gear check really. It's the least gear check boss. How many warlocks do you have?

We have only one Warlock. He is around 735 ilevel and one of the best players in our guild.

[Flazian]

Gorefiend is not a gear check really. It's the least gear check boss. How many warlocks do you have?

Agreed. Gorefiend was hard when rings weren't even widespread/lower than like 750 and we didn't have valor upgrades AND we didn't have 5 more seconds in the stomach like now. I would say that for a guild that has to deal with pugs and the lower skill level of friendsNfamily, Tyrant mimght actually give you more trouble than you'd think. It isn't as forgiving on low numbers as Gorefiend is. If you don't have several people actually up to snuff and carrying you through P2 your tanks and healers will struggle to keep up in P3. Individual mistakes are easier to avoid (not many mechanics in the fight) but are FAR more punishing. Someone dies on Gorefiend? Your soul team will be peeved but it can be recovered and hell you'll have less adds coming out. Someone dies on Tyrant because they were mouthbreathing and other tard things? You're probably losing more HP in P2. If you brez them then your tanks have to play perfectly and manage cooldowns very well (and god knows how many bad tanks are getting carried by CoW and Hpallies nowadays). If someone is too slow with Edict in P3, or too many people stand in the period lines, or people don't manage their personals properly in last phase your healers will simply not be able to keep up in most cases.

I think too many people have this weird state of mind on the upper floor because they reached it so deep in the tier because of being cockblocked by Gorefiend. They ignore the fact that Gore is trivialized by gear in that it allows you to focus solely on the mechanics aspects of the fight. When you don't have to worry about numbers then mechanics just aren't enough to hold up a boss. Reaching Tyrant at probably 725 ilvl + ring and a few weeks of caches (so they might have some mythic trinkets) and wrecking her in 70 pulls compared to reaching Gorefiend pre-nerf and at 711-715 ilvl are vastly different experiences and it taints a lot of the poster's views here. I've seen guilds progress on the fight now. They do not do what they're supposed to do. People eat tempests. They don't deal with annihilating strike properly. Nobody uses personals. Nobody uses tonics/shieldtronics. Tanks stacks externals instead of chaining them. They don't even communicate with their healers. They don't keep up proper uptimes on mitigation. Healers overhealing to high hell. I could go on and on. The shit that goes on would baffle them and they can't really reconcile that with what they're used to so they go "Nah Tyrant is just numbers and is super ez. 5 pull boss NP. Gorefiend actually still kinda hard." Tyrant is probably the first boss that actually makes you play somewhat properly in every role.

As to what to progress on? I'd say if you can, get an alt to come in for first two and grab that lockout and extend it when you want to progress on Gore. You're still getting decent gear and you'll probably get a good 1 and a half hours of progress (assuming it takes you 2-3 hours to get to him, the bulk of which comes probably just from getting people in and killing trash + HFA, it should only take you an hr and a half to get from Korm to Gore).

When you do progress on him, I'd recommend hand-holding by calling out when everyone is allowed to attack Gore and when they're not. For like 30 pulls only allow them to attack the boss for opener and then have them sit around doing mechanics properly until after feast, then tell them to attack until the first construct spawns then stop dps on boss and focus mechanics etc. Do it for more if you have to. When you feel confident that they've got that down then hopefully it will be ingrained in to them to prioritize the mechanics over the boss. As long as your soul team isn't bad and people aren't trying to pad it's a really simple fight at current gear levels, hardly any more difficult than heroic.

[Adramelch]

We have only one Warlock. He is around 735 ilevel and one of the best players in our guild.

Then Tyrant is probably the best choice. If you have no Warlock then it get some extra tactical elements so it might not be the best choice.

[Wilderness]

I think Iskar and Zakuun are good calls.

Gorefiend and Tyrant are probably equal in difficulty somewhat. Where they differ is the nature of the fights. Gorefiend just feels like a cockblock because you wipe in less than 2 minutes. Tyrant you can get further and feel (correctly or not) that you are getting somewhere so its less demoralizing.

I don't think Gorefiend and Tyrant are that close now. As someone else already said, between the increased gear, rings, and the extra 5 seconds there's a ton more leeway on Gorefiend than there used to be. I think its highly unlikely any group on first kills even needs to get to the 3rd feast at this point, so you just have to repeat that 2 mins outside of feasts a couple of times. You will spend most of progress wiping on those first 2 minutes and I guess that can be demoralizing but at the same time that also means a lot of pulls in the same time and for a guild with limited hours to progress there's value in that too. I think they should do Gorefiend before trying Tyrant.

[Deleted]

Gorefiend is the hardest boss in the instance before Mannoroth and yes I include Xhul as easier. The gear might play a role, making entry-gear Gorefiend easier than entry-gear Xhul in some cases but nowadays most don't go with very entry gear.

To put it simply, Gorefiend is not just a boss. It's the final boss of half the tier. If the raid was two different buildings it would be clearer what is going on. Now most people are confused with the question "Why is Gorefiend so much harder?". For that.

In your case I would start with Zakuun. It's the easiest boss in the instance for the gear one will usually have when reaching it. Pugging much further beyond that is harder, not so much because it's really hard but it needs good organization.

[Sylvaeres]

Zakuun is an absolute joke of a fight, with massive rewards, if your group has high dps

[Alleji]

I'd recommend Iskar -> Zakuun -> Tyrant -> Gorefiend.

Iskar is pretty easy overall. With enough DPS you can cheese the mythic mechanic so it doesn't even happen and you're basically doing the heroic fight with a bit more healing.

Zakuun is also easy with current DPS, but has extremely low fuckup tolerance and there are a few difficult roles to perform on the fight (second and third round of soaking puddles). If you have ~8 good players you can rely on to do mechanics, it shouldn't be too bad.

Out of the remaining two, Tyrant is definitely easier than Gorefiend IMO, plus Gorefiend takes at least 1.5 hours to get to.

[Deleted]

The question of Tyrant comes a bit down to how comfortable your tanks are, because I still think she is really hard for them. Maybe I'm a bit biased because I main a Blood DK, but Tyrant is the fight I had most trouble with in the entire fucking instance. Socrethar, Iskar and Zakuun are definitely all easier then Gorefiend and should go down without much trouble.

[kipperson]

I'd recommend Iskar -> Zakuun -> Tyrant -> Gorefiend.

Iskar is pretty easy overall. With enough DPS you can cheese the mythic mechanic so it doesn't even happen and you're basically doing the heroic fight with a bit more healing.

Zakuun is also easy with current DPS, but has extremely low fuckup tolerance and there are a few difficult roles to perform on the fight (second and third round of soaking puddles). If you have ~8 good players you can rely on to do mechanics, it shouldn't be too bad.

Out of the remaining two, Tyrant is definitely easier than Gorefiend IMO, plus Gorefiend takes at least 1.5 hours to get to.

Yes i agree with this