WoW has the challenge/group size relationship backwards.

[ro9ue]

Nope...

3 man groups getting the most "powerful" items in the game would literally kill raiding. Why go through your "social difficulties" with raiding groups if you're already beating the game with 2 other people? If you thought raiding had a small participation pool now, it would just be flat out depressing with your system.

The system would theoretically work like this:

Solo/Small group content would have from easy to the hardest challenges and consistently good rewards with the longest progression system.

Medium group content would have really good rewards with easy-medium challenges.

Large group content would have easy challenges but reward really good stuff rarely, like a weekly lockout, so it would still be worth doing. Possibly just more RNG here. Think Kazzak. Large group content would focus more on fun than challenge.

[Sencha]

I like hard content and I like raids. So I completely disagree with your idea.

3-player content ... why are you playing a MMO?

[OreoLover]

I don't find it backwards: big groups have more players, tools, etc. and should not vastly increase the efficiency of rewards and play.

There is challenge in building (especially maintaining) large, organized groups.

I agree there should be more focus on difficulty improved across the spectrum. Legion seems to be touching on this, with the scaling world + new tap rules + content variously classed and obviously discernible (world quests with differing difficulties).

----Adding on...

The "primary content" is the game world, with instances building the "ongoing content" (hopefully--IE they keep dungeons viable with the "Mythic+" concept).

So, I think the game world (not instances) should be difficult and rewarding enough to encourage healthy solo and small group play. I believe the instances should continue to encourage small group and larger (save largest for world bosses and such) with part of the difficulty stemming from the social aspect, and the reward being the usual (gear, prestigious transmog, mounts).

TLDR:

World content = Solo to Small group
World boss = Large group
Instances = Small to Medium group

Solo to small group = Medium difficulty
Medium group = Hard difficulty
Large group = Hard or Easy difficulty (Oondasta or solo Kazzak)

Overgearing = Lower by one difficulty (Hard to Medium, or Hard but you Carry)

(Basically agree with what I see for Legion)

[Socialhealer]

The system would theoretically work like this:

Solo/Small group content would have from easy to the hardest challenges and consistently good rewards with the longest progression system.

Medium group content would have really good rewards with easy-medium challenges.

Large group content would have easy challenges but reward really good stuff rarely, like a weekly lockout, so it would still be worth doing. Possibly just more RNG here. Think Kazzak. Large group content would focus more on fun than challenge.

TLDR = i want raiding dead and gone.

not happening /thread

you can discuss for another 20 50 100 pages, i'll cya in 5 years when mythic(heroic) whatever they name it is still the hardest content and i'm still clearing it and solo play is faceroll.

your idea is fucking retarded because it's an mmorpg and you want to play with like 2-4 people or alone, PLAY A SOLO PLAYER GAME, please stop being so damn stupid, all the screenshots of vanilla wow that people love are not them on their fucking own it's them with loads of others be it in a raid, in the world doing pvp, be it at events with other players, be it in towns surrounded by loads of others raiding other factions towns, AQ opening event etc, and your fucking idea is nah i wanna be alone, log off leave the internet be alone stay away from mmorpgs please, you're not entitled to enjoy it your way this isn't fucking subway.

- - - Updated - - -

Large group = Hard or Easy difficulty (Oondasta or solo Kazzak)

kazzak was always a complete joke and taken down by blood dk's solo after a couple of weeks, oondasta is not in the same league he was insane he could slaughter 100's of people and even tanks would get destroyed quickly, after the nerfs he's just a loot pinata you tag once a week for 2 minutes, not what i call "large group content" it's barely even content people spend more times in queues for dungeons and getting to kazzak than they do actually killing kazzak.

[OreoLover]

kazzak was always a complete joke and taken down by blood dk's solo after a couple of weeks, oondasta is not in the same league he was insane he could slaughter 100's of people and even tanks would get destroyed quickly, after the nerfs he's just a loot pinata you tag once a week for 2 minutes, not what i call "large group content" it's barely even content people spend more times in queues for dungeons and getting to kazzak than they do actually killing kazzak.

That was my point, I should have said "hard versus easy" or something if I was explaining. Sorry for being unclear

[Zenjie]

I voted yes.
But i should put it other way around.
In the rate of the progression of your character.

Solo should be "SLOW".
Grouping = Medium
Raid = Fast

Other game, I prefer to group because it is more safe and faster. Faster killing, thus completing your quest faster. So on. So should be same for the endgame.

[Sencha]

In reality that's how it works out which gives the lie to the idea that "most" people desire a challenge.

Not exactly.

If you have two ways to get the same rewards, people won't take the hardest way.

But most people like challenges. They like to be tested to see how far they can go.

And the people that can overcome those challenges like to get rewards according to the difficulty.

[Allenseiei]

No, i came to WoW for big and hard raids. If your idea ever comes true, my circle and I will stop playing.

I dont want mindless zergests for big raids. If you want this then go to any sandbox MMO and raid there.

[Deleted]

There should be easy, medium and hard content for solo, small group and large groups. And it should be different content, not different difficulties to the same content.

[omeomorfismo]

no, this thing will be impossible to balance
a "not so easy" for a dk blood is basically "impossible" for a sub/assa rogue
but maybe you suggest to homogenize all the class, or to put in slavery the devs to create and balance every single solo stuff for 36 spec

[Deleted]

In reality that's how it works out which gives the lie to the idea that "most" people desire a challenge.

You've got it backwards. Most people desire the rewards, but in WoW the rewards have no intrinsic value. They are only gratifying in combination with the effort/challenge to obtain them.

[Niwes]

even when the op has some good points and a logical argumentation, i cant fully agree. as some of the others mentioned, leading to more easy group content is not what a mmorpg is made for.

my oppinion here is, brain-afk-easy content should always just be a side effect in a mmorpg. things like grinds, fishing etc is good to have (for relaxing or for the ganja driven crowd) in a mmorpg and always was there. BUT, it should be side stuff. not main stuff. the core aspects of a mmorpg should always be challenging. regardless if its questing (not all but a good part of it), dungeons or raids.

if a game isnt challenging, it became a repeating task you "just have to do". thats the definition of work. not the definition of fun or gaming. all that easy crap (not just in wow but in all games) was starting a few years afetr the millenium, when the gaming industry realized that gaming isnt longer for a bunch of geeks but for the masses. they started to catering to the masses. but there is a difference, even if you are a casual player, if you dont wanna invest much time, and if you want hillarious easy lame shit in that time. i know a LOT casual players, that dont invest too much time in gaming, but want challenging games.

and as a side note: what value has a reward when you didnt tried to achieve it ? its the same like money you get for your job. its a deal. not a reward for trying hard, which is fun to earn. (maybe for some this also applies to jobs, but in gneral... you get the idea).

long story short: in my oppinion there was nothing wrong with hard dungeons, elite mobs, careful-pulls, etc like they did in vanilla-tbc. and in the vanilla-tbc era there were A LOT of casual players. they didnt cry for easier content. they cried for shorter dungeons and more splittable raids. thats a whole difference.

the subs graph shows endless sinking since the high point in wotlk. but the more interessting fact is, before wotlk, there was ONLY increasing of subs. and there were casual players too. since wow always has/had more casual players than hardcore players (like nearly everything). and since they did the stuff hillarious easy, the subs are only decreasing. but when content was challenging they only increased. this alone is a proof that there cant be casual players who ALL want easy content. they want short time periods, but not easy content. its just a wrong assumption.

if a game isnt challenging in a great part, its just work. nothing else.

[cFortyfive]

Final Fantasy XIV

Really don't get it why do people don't stick to their weeaboo game but have to bring up their shit everywhere.

TLDR = i want raiding dead and gone.

Same club as glorious leader - can't expect anything else. Not even mentioning how that green fire quest and that rogue crap were easy as fuck.

[rda]

WoW's --general-- current model for challenge in relation to group size looks like this:

Solo play: easy
Small group play: easy-medium
Large group play: easy-medium-hard


IMO it should look like this:

Solo play: easy-medium-hard
Small group play: easy-medium
Large group play: easy

Agree completely.

[ro9ue]

TLDR = i want raiding dead and gone.

not happening /thread

you can discuss for another 20 50 100 pages, i'll cya in 5 years when mythic(heroic) whatever they name it is still the hardest content and i'm still clearing it and solo play is faceroll.

your idea is fucking retarded because it's an mmorpg and you want to play with like 2-4 people or alone, PLAY A SOLO PLAYER GAME, please stop being so damn stupid, all the screenshots of vanilla wow that people love are not them on their fucking own it's them with loads of others be it in a raid, in the world doing pvp, be it at events with other players, be it in towns surrounded by loads of others raiding other factions towns, AQ opening event etc, and your fucking idea is nah i wanna be alone, log off leave the internet be alone stay away from mmorpgs please, you're not entitled to enjoy it your way this isn't fucking subway.

It's funny because I was there in vanilla and the world AQ event and stuff like Azuregos weren't actually hard. They were zergfests. Same thing when people like the big 40 man MCs. They had like 1-2 major mechanics and that was it, it felt epic simply because there were 39 other people with you. There were definitely hard raids though like AQ40/Naxx40. But those raids barely ever saw any players (I actually am speaking from experience of having 2 naxx40 kills).

[Deleted]

I actually like this idea. I would like to see some 2-3 player content like harder versions of scenarios.

[hulkgor]

Please stop advocating a decrease on difficulty, please.

Its low difficulty and extreme quality of life are the problems with WoW. Instant gratification for no challenge whatsoever.

[Echocho]

I agree. It should be much harder doing things by yourself.

[Deleted]

This is exactly the system they have in Final Fantasy XIV. Large-sized raids are easy, and the small scale are brutally difficult. I find the system works a lot better this way and would love if WoW did something similar but doubt they ever will.

Like BC and further back, it actually was that exact way and this may be a surprise to a lot of folks, but, it worked...

Unlike nowadays.

Some guys are probably over-thinking this but if you start to compare raids from BC to todays, then the real difficulty was in the social bits. Getting the folks, gear and attunements. The fights themselves, weren't that hard.

Nowadays, it's a large mix. Bosses are difficult, relatively very difficult(I'm talking mythic, it's the only relevant mode vs. the only mode back in the day).

And yeah, I agree with what is said. However, I'd want the 4-mode jargon to disappear for good as well, it's basically a requirement in my opinion if any of it would be more normalised again.

[Sierra85]

lfd and conveniance tools really were what pushed the sizes down or backwards.

i think a 5man for challenges is fine, i dont see a point in 10-20-25 man challenge group sizes.