Warrior Order Hall and Storytelling in Legion

[Archimtiros]

This is coming from someone who isn't at all into the lore, but I absolutely have no idea who anyone in your list is. None of those characters have done anything in WoW as far as I know, but every single warrior is going to remember Thorim and Hodir and Ymiron. I think that's the problem.

If you're a lore buff, or are bringing in warriors from WC1-3, then yeah, you might recognize some of the names you see. But for someone who just played WoW and doesn't read WoWpedia (probably the vast majority of players), followers like the Wrath bosses are going to instantly be way more recognizable than a bunch of orcs and humans who haven't done jack as far as WoW is concerned.

To be fair, this can be said about almost every supporting NPC in WoW - if you just blow through the game without paying attention to the story, none of the characters will stand out to you, and I wouldn't call that a failure on the games part, but on the players.

Using too recognizable characters (Muradin, Thrall, Watchers) is a double edged sword from a narrative standpoint, and one WoW has been struggling with for awhile. As you continually put the player on a pedistal, and in charge of more nad more renowned characters, you're pushing them against a narrative ceiling. With the point we are at now, few characters can even hope to contend with us. Obviously some players like this, but narratively it puts us in an awkward place. Consider, if Muradin or Magni were our follower, as some would suggest, it's essentially putting us above kings, leaders of an entire race of people.

Regardless on your particular view, the point is merely to make an effort for the Warrior Class Hall to encompass more than just one subset faction (Vrykul) in the game, even if you personally don't recognize the characters. If anything, it's encouragement for you to do some research and learn about why these characters are important, I have a feeling some may surprise you.

[Wazooty]

Mountain kings, blademasters, sentinels (the base tri-blade glaive wielding ones at least), totem wielding tauren...

[Archimtiros]

But everyone else on his list was either added in Legion, doesn't appear in WoW at all, or - in the case of Trollbane and the Anvilmar guy - were simply quest NPCs that you need knowledge of WC1-3 lore to even remotely assume that they're important. So like I said, I don't think from a general population perspective quest givers are any better followers to reward than raid bosses.

Not true, actually, none of them are new to Legion (except obviously the Vrykul which were left in for that purpose);

• Thargas Anvilmar is the "newest" character on my list, and he was added in Cataclysm; though he was also featured in a number of the comics, and has a fairly fleshed out backstory, making him a little more interesting than a generic Warrior trainer or quest giver with no history or player interaction.
  
• His alternate, August Foehammer (alternate because I didn't want two alliance dwarfs on the list), was featured in Vanilla WoW during the Ahn'Qiraj event and during Wrath of the Lich King, story wise he was one of the leaders of the Might of Kalimdor, which later became known as the 7th Legion, which is a reoccuring subfaction within Alliance story.
  
• Danath Trollbane was featured during the Burning Crusade. While not often featured in World of Warcraft, he's one of the "big name" characters who reached fame along with Khadgar, Turalyon, Alleria, Kurdan, and their counterpart Horde heroes during the Warcraft II expansion, Tides of Darkness. A new player might not care so much about this, but reusing them helps build continuity within the universe.
  
• Nazgrel was also featured during the Burning Crusade, as Danath Trollbane's counterpart. While he was not a part of Warcraft II, he first became known for his supporting role in the Warcraft III expansion's extra campaign, The Founding Of Durotar, in helping Thrall establish Orgrimmar.

Again, you could just make up some new characters to throw in and this list was only a quick example I drafted to make a point that the class hall could work without discluding Alliance/Horde characters, but reusing an existing character is a matter of continuity - why create new characters, which requires fleshing out their story to make them feel important to players, when you can reuse a character which players already have a connection with? In building a living world in which time progresses, there's no reason to leave characters to stagnate; they should be moving on and participating in the events of the world, just as the player does.

The greatest (and by that I mean most recognized/remembered by players) NPC characters in the game are the ones that evolve along with your character. Everyone knows who Saurfang is, precisely because he wasn't just shown during Ahn'Qiraj and then abandoned - he's been involved in nearly as many major story events as Thrall has at this point. Re-using story characters and evolving them along with the world is what makes the difference between a great story and a bland one, it's one of the cornerstones of great fiction.

[Leyl]

No offense, but you really don't have a clue what you're talking about here. While I've suggested some "programming" changes (and I cringe to put it that way, but I'm using your words), these issues detailed above are all narrative ones. A few simple lines of dialogue would fix them, which doesn't require a heavy amount of scripting. Regardless, it's a poor excuse; it's akin to saying "while building this car, we discovered the navigation was wrong, but we aren't going to fix it because we still have other cars to build". No matter how you cut it, it's still a flawed product.

Yeah, actually I kinda do as I code for a living, but I'm not gonna go into that. Regardless of your thought process, a text edit means a build change, a build change means a QA review, a review means more than a few hands looking into it and laying hands on it. This isn't to mention all of the other lines of text they gotta check because, shocker, there may have been other parts of the story impacted.

There are gonna be flaws, I get you find that utterly incomprehensible, but it is the reality of existence. You're not entitled to perfection, nor entitled to demand it unless you're the one calling the shots. To be even more fair, you're in a beta you're not even paying for. It'll go live though, so I'll wait for the "I'm a paying customer" thump at some point. Narrative ones are programatic one at some level; any scripting changes - especially to meet your standards of excellence - will have to go through a few hands.

I've been playing Warcraft since 1995, and I can say there are bigger holes to drive trucks thru as far as lore is concerned. But you're not highlighting those at all, won't acknowledge they exist, or more importantly post rants on multiple forums that they still yet stand. You make one post, focus on how your "immersion" is broken, and then podium grandstand - its entirely inappropriate. I don't consider it feedback mainly b/c the feedback involved is once sentence long, not a litany of garbage.

"There's a plot hole, please fix, thanks."

Regarding being contradictory, no, I don't find myself contradictory in the slightest, I'm agreeing with the points you made, not the fact that YOU ARE doing critiquing. I don't agree with your criticisms, and I know other people won't either. Its how people approach these things that make a difference. One sentence, cool, not a critique - just a fix. Great, that's feedback! Rants - not feedback.

[Archimtiros]

Yeah, actually I kinda do as I code for a living, but I'm not gonna go into that. Regardless of your thought process, a text edit means a build change, a build change means a QA review, a review means more than a few hands looking into it and laying hands on it. This isn't to mention all of the other lines of text they gotta check because, shocker, there may have been other parts of the story impacted.

Yeah, but that's not what you suggested, you said "Some changes are made programmatically to ensure things work out mechanically well, and leads to these plot holes you see." which is asinine. I'm perfectly aware of what causes the issue - writer says Odyn can't send out Valarjar, quest design unknowingly sends out a Valarjar on a quest, but one of the jobs of QA is to find these issues and fix them.
If the mechanics change creates a plot hole, either change the text so the plot hole no longer exists, or change the mechanic, plain and simple. Furthermore, I'm not suggesting they push out a new build for the sole purpose of these changes, but they can be done concurrently if they're pushing out builds anyway, which they are. You might be a "programmer", but your ways of thinking are incredibly naive if you think these things can't, or don't happen in exactly this manner. It's akin to saying they can't fix a tree floating above the ground because it requires programming and a new build.

There are gonna be flaws, I get you find that utterly incomprehensible, but it is the reality of existence.

And yet, that's exactly what the beta process is for... finding flaws so they can be addressed and fixed.

I've been playing Warcraft since 1995, and I can say there are bigger holes to drive trucks thru as far as lore is concerned. But you're not highlighting those at all, won't acknowledge they exist, or more importantly post rants on multiple forums that they still yet stand. You make one post, focus on how your "immersion" is broken, and then podium grandstand - its entirely inappropriate. I don't consider it feedback mainly b/c the feedback involved is once sentence long, not a litany of garbage.

"There's a plot hole, please fix, thanks."

Those plot holes aren't the subject of this thread, though I've spoken on numerous issues in the past as well (you really think this is my only forum post, or the first time I've been involved in an Alpha?). "There's a plot hole" isn't effective feedback if you don't also explain:

A) how there's a plot hole,
B) why it's a problem,
C) a potential solution (optional)

I don't find myself contradictory in the slightest, I'm agreeing with the points you made, not the fact that YOU ARE doing critiquing. I don't agree with your criticisms

Nope, not contradictory at all...

Your issue is that I'm the one saying it, and that I've said it more than once. Not only is that childish, it's also your problem, not mine. These forums are for discussion, so we're going to discuss, especially when people step in and offer conflicting points of view; if it's an ongoing problem, it's inordinately shortsighted to think that we won't discuss it more than once. For that matter, repeating feedback is important, no matter how much people may hate to hear it - the expression "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" exists for a reason - it's completely true. Mention a problem once, and it's easily pushed aside; repeatedly bringing up the problem raises awareness and serves as a reminder that the problem still exists, increasing the chances of it being addressed, whether you like hearing about it or not. That's not simply about games, it's true in almost every facet of modern life.

[Recke]

This is an MMO. There aren't 39490293 staves of Alodi. There aren't 3383092390 Warswords of the Valar'jar. You're going to see them AND other players b/c this is not a single player game. I find the argument holds no water as there have been tons of quests in the past that say "you are the last hope of XXX" when 284 other people are doing it at the same time.

Something I'd like to address is that the other Order Class Halls have a very minor version of this, which can be assumed as success for the other class halls. It's not like Mages are told they are the one true heir to Maylgos, champion of all that is blue and glowing. It's like those 4 out of 5 prefer Trident gum commercials.

[Archimtiros]

Something I'd like to address is that the other Order Class Halls have a very minor version of this, which can be assumed as success for the other class halls. It's not like Mages are told they are the one true heir to Maylgos, champion of all that is blue and glowing. It's like those 4 out of 5 prefer Trident gum commercials.

As I've said, it's all in the narrative.

Other classes are told the class hall is a place for all [class] to come together, and you see that represented in the hall by the myriad NPCs, both named and otherwise. Therefore, it can be readily assumed that other players you see are simply other members of the class (and in fact, this is the exact justification they gave for the shared space at blizzcon when the feature was announced).

The Warrior class hall doesn't have this for two reasons. First, we are told outright that we are the only mortal champion, which automatically precludes any other player races from being present. Second, visually, because unlike the other class halls, you don't see any other player-race Warriors present, thus reinforcing the concept of it being a Vrykul exclusive space.

[Kirbydude65]

As I've said, it's all in the narrative.

Other classes are told the class hall is a place for all [class] to come together, and you see that represented in the hall by the myriad NPCs, both named and otherwise. Therefore, it can be readily assumed that other players you see are simply other members of the class (and in fact, this is the exact justification they gave for the shared space at blizzcon when the feature was announced).

The Warrior class hall doesn't have this for two reasons. First, we are told outright that we are the only mortal champion, which automatically precludes any other player races from being present.

To add on to this, the whole Storm peaks quest line throws that concept out the window since mortals do combat to gain access to the hall through a lengthy trial.

[Deleted]

Hi,

I don't have beta access, so please take my input with a grain of salt and correct me if I'm wrong.

The lore aspect could certainly be handled better (especially the starting scenario). I like your vision much more, the "vrykul assist us" thingie. Us choosing some random turds over our leaders is kind of stupid. However, isn't it handled the way that either:
A) we ask Vrykul to help us in aiding our friends

Or

B) It is agreed that we need to push forward, no matter what, we don't come back for anyone because mission > all else, and we simply stumble upon Vrykul?

Also, the plot hole with other mortals in the class hall while being told we're the only one allowed in is certainly terrible - but maybe we could explain that other players are Valarjar (sorry if misspelled), dead ones that were allowed in, we are just the only LIVING one? I think it would make some more sense.

[Sixnalia]

Hi,

Also, the plot hole with other mortals in the class hall while being told we're the only one allowed in is certainly terrible - but maybe we could explain that other players are Valarjar (sorry if misspelled), dead ones that were allowed in, we are just the only LIVING one? I think it would make some more sense.

The thing is, this would mean our character set a precedent for allowing non-Vrykul into the Halls, as it is supposed to be Vrykul only. We're the exception in all of this. If that precedent was acknowledged by Devs, that now the Halls allow any who die a valorous death to ascend to the Halls, then we should expect to get non-Vrykul followers.

Ultimately, with how Odyn treats you as the special non-Vrykul/still-living snowflake, seeing other non-vrykul makes little sense.
If they -really- want to drive that fantasy home, they should make a buff that affects you when entering the halls, making all players appear as Valarjar. Which is totally possibly, just like the Underbelly potion that turns everyone into human mages. That would fix this particular plot hole presented when you enter the Halls.

[Toppy]

The thing is, this would mean our character set a precedent for allowing non-Vrykul into the Halls, as it is supposed to be Vrykul only. We're the exception in all of this. If that precedent was acknowledged by Devs, that now the Halls allow any who die a valorous death to ascend to the Halls, then we should expect to get non-Vrykul followers.

Ultimately, with how Odyn treats you as the special non-Vrykul/still-living snowflake, seeing other non-vrykul makes little sense.
If they -really- want to drive that fantasy home, they should make a buff that affects you when entering the halls, making all players appear as Valarjar. Which is totally possibly, just like the Underbelly potion that turns everyone into human mages. That would fix this particular plot hole presented when you enter the Halls.

This would imply blizzard cares. Blizzard doesnt tend to care about storyline consistency or the honestly the world itself at all. People arent meant to roleplay in Warcraft. The world building is at the barest minimum and retcons are overly common.

[Sixnalia]

This would imply blizzard cares. Blizzard doesnt tend to care about storyline consistency or the honestly the world itself at all. People arent meant to roleplay in Warcraft. The world building is at the barest minimum and retcons are overly common.

I can dream ;_;

[Deleted]

I will just imagine that other players are deformed vrykul, then ;_;

[Archimtiros]

The thing is, this would mean our character set a precedent for allowing non-Vrykul into the Halls, as it is supposed to be Vrykul only. We're the exception in all of this. If that precedent was acknowledged by Devs, that now the Halls allow any who die a valorous death to ascend to the Halls, then we should expect to get non-Vrykul followers.

I'm not even sure if it does though, because the player doesn't even die. Now this may just be a technicality, but to me that seemed a very important distinction - that Odyn needed a still living champion.

[mysticx]

To add on to this, the whole Storm peaks quest line throws that concept out the window since mortals do combat to gain access to the hall through a lengthy trial.

That's the bit that irks me more than the whole "vrykul heaven"-thing, that our class hall doubles as a 5-man (or rather, that a 5-man is reused as our class hall), what's next: farming the rogues' or warlocks' hideout for APs?

[Archimtiros]

This would imply blizzard cares. Blizzard doesnt tend to care about storyline consistency or the honestly the world itself at all. People arent meant to roleplay in Warcraft. The world building is at the barest minimum and retcons are overly common.

I don't know about that, but obviously they're selective about what they fix. Unfortunately, there's no easy fix for this, since both are hugely impactful on the story. At best they could only hope to "easily" adjust lines of dialogue in the HoV to account for other players, etc, but even that would only be a half measure towards addressing the core issues.

[Sixnalia]

I don't know about that, but obviously they're selective about what they fix. Unfortunately, there's no easy fix for this, since both are hugely impactful on the story. At best they could only hope to "easily" adjust lines of dialogue in the HoV to account for other players, etc, but even that would only be a half measure towards addressing the core issues.

A friend mentioned Druids got unique dialogue from the first boss in Darkwood Thicket.
If that's true, then they have done it, they just haven't done it for warriors. So just doing that would be nice ;_;

[Toppy]

A friend mentioned Druids got unique dialogue from the first boss in Darkwood Thicket.
If that's true, then they have done it, they just haven't done it for warriors. So just doing that would be nice ;_;

Some classes get little changes in the dungeons.

So far none for warrior though, go figure. Our hall is literally a dungeon and we dont get anything unique when entering said dungeon.

Then again one of our followers, and the one that you can use as a bodyguard, is a random iron dwarf using a wotlk model that no one knows or cares about. So something tells me Warrior is fairly low on blizzards "stuff we care about" list.

[Archimtiros]

Some classes get little changes in the dungeons.

So far none for warrior though, go figure. Our hall is literally a dungeon and we dont get anything unique when entering said dungeon.

Then again one of our followers, and the one that you can use as a bodyguard, is a random iron dwarf using a wotlk model that no one knows or cares about. So something tells me Warrior is fairly low on blizzards "stuff we care about" list.

There are a couple minor mentions for Fury which are easy to miss.

In the Halls of Valor dungeon, Hymdall says something to the effect of "those swords should have been mine" if you're Fury.... which doesn't really make sense as presumably he could have gone and gotten them at any time before we showed up, but there it is.

There are also a couple minor mentions of the artifacts/warrior in Stormheim now. At the end of the Stormheim quest chain when Odyn makes himself known and tells you to go to the Halls of Valor, he says something like "I wouldn't circumvent the trials, even for my chosen champion", referencing the fact that you already had his blessing/had been to the Skyhold. Similarly, a few random Vrykul NPCs mention your wearing the Fury swords with a line similar to "glad to see those swords back in good hands".

[Toppy]

There are a couple minor mentions for Fury which are easy to miss.

In the Halls of Valor dungeon, Hymdall says something to the effect of "those swords should have been mine" if you're Fury.... which doesn't really make sense as presumably he could have gone and gotten them at any time before we showed up, but there it is.

There are also a couple minor mentions of the artifacts/warrior in Stormheim now. At the end of the Stormheim quest chain when Odyn makes himself known and tells you to go to the Halls of Valor, he says something like "I wouldn't circumvent the trials, even for my chosen champion", referencing the fact that you already had his blessing/had been to the Skyhold. Similarly, a few random Vrykul NPCs mention your wearing the Fury swords with a line similar to "glad to see those swords back in good hands".

That just sounds even more crap to me.

"YOU ARE THE LEADER OF MY VRYKUL! HERE IS ONE OF MY BEST HYMDALL!"

"YOU LITTLE SHIT. THOSE SHOULD HAVE BEEN MY SWORDS."