Study: Sanders' economic plan piles $18T on federal debt

[Fugus]

That's what I was thinking. I saw this article today and went "Wait a sec...I think I've seen this before."

Didn't they basically ignore any cuts he had planned for other departments like the military and all other standing medical systems since they'd be rolled into this one and just focused on how much increased tax revenue would provide?

Pretty much. They just took a look at the expenses the plans would have cost in a vacuum and ignored all redundant programs it would cut in the process or how his policies would change revenue and such.

[Sunseeker]

Pretty much. They just took a look at the expenses the plans would have cost in a vacuum and ignored all redundant programs it would cut in the process or how his policies would change revenue and such.

Seems like an utterly pointless analysis.

I'm happy to hear they are now being paid to report on if water is still wet. /sarcasm

[Fugus]

Seems like an utterly pointless analysis.

I'm happy to hear they are now being paid to report on if water is still wet. /sarcasm

Pretty much, it was such a piss poor report that they got laughed at and even had to apologize it was so bad to save face if I remember correctly.

[PosPosPos]

This isn't the first time supertony51 has post this(and subsequently got debunked as well); certainly, there's also a trend of people on a certain side of the political spectrum, on this forums, linking all sorts of conspiracy theories, bad math/science, ludicrous unsupported accusations of crime etc.

You know that the OP just has a personal vendetta and axe to grind when he consistently ignores the other half of the balance sheet; the part conveniently left out about how the plan actually pays for itself and then some, while bringing massive social benefits and quality-of-life to the middle and lower classes.

The facts speak for themselves, but there are people who love to twist, or outright ignore them, if it means furthering their debunked narrative. You know, the act of shouting louder and sticking fingers into ears when someone else tries to be the voice of reason - post more nonsense threads, opinion articles and bad math to hopefully whitewash all the dissent.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Well usually federal spending involves creating new jobs, and the people that get those jobs put a lot of their earnings back into the economy. The government picking up the bill for services people are already doing isn't going to accomplish that.

That changes the source of the money, not the fact that it's injected back into the economy, so increased spending means more jobs, not less.

[SodiumChloride]

People need to learn that debt isn't necessarily bad.

As long as you are making back at least enough in profit to cover the interest payment, you are golden.

Now whether spending $18T the way Sanders is planning to do so is going to generate said required profit ... that's another discussion.

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That changes the source of the money, not the fact that it's injected back into the economy, so increased spending means more jobs, not less.

You don't need government spending to get money into the economy.

Banks can and will "print" as much money as it's necessary for an efficient economy.

[Cthulhu 2020]

You don't need government spending to get money into the economy.

Banks can and will "print" as much money as it's necessary for an efficient economy.

It's not necessary that the government does it. My point was that the government's debt does not directly correlate to the success or lack thereof of the market. If anything, government packages that increase spending start circulating more money. When our economy's problem is wealth not being spent, soundslike that might help a bit.

[Bigvizz]

He also had plans to pay for them that covered the expenses and then some.

And a $15 minimum wage would be a huge boon to the economy in multiple areas.

Yep, along with all those new unemployed minimum wage workers.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/mcdon...th-automation/ < this is just the begining of such changes.

[Captain N]

Yep, along with all those new unemployed minimum wage workers.

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/mcdon...th-automation/ < this is just the begining of such changes.

Good ole IP -- Owned by the Koch Brothers. If you think automation is only coming for low wage workers because of the impending wage increase I have a bridge to sell you.

[Grummgug]

Democracy can only last until people figure out they can vote themselves free stuff. Then its just a race to the bottom. Bernie isn't doing anything but saying "vote for me and I'll give you free!" He's just buying support. He appeals to our most base instincts when we should aim higher.

[Vash The Stampede]

In other news Bernie Sanders is bad, and should feel bad. This report was done with smarty smart smart people who know what they're talking about. In other news Trump said something appalling, and Hillary is probably going to be president of the world at this rate. In other news, Bernie should stop and let master Hillary win presidency already.

*KNOCK* *KNOCK*

Just ignore that. It's probably the peasants that want some free food and stuff. Nothing special.

*KNOCK* *KNOCK*

[Sunseeker]

Good ole IP -- Owned by the Koch Brothers. If you think automation is only coming for low wage workers because of the impending wage increase I have a bridge to sell you.

In the words of John Snow: Win...I mean Automation is coming.

Automation is coming for everyone. It'll come for the indoor manual labor first, which it already has in many places. Then it'll come for the outdoor manual labor as soon as they make the devices durable enough to endure extended use in the sun and weather. It'll start with the big, heavy, stupid jobs. Digging holes, bending things, breaking things, moving big heavy stuff. As fine mechanical motor control increases, it'll move its way up the ladder. It's already widely used in hospitals, just controlled by people. But that's just the next target. Once you have a machine that you can program to perform a task without any outside assistance you're golden.

If machines can control themselves to perform the same tasks humans can, then that also means they're thinking at least on the level required for that task. It may not be abstract thought, but if you program a machine with the information to address enough possible variables it won't really matter. It'll be able to cross-reference and connect the dots to create a faster, more exacting solution.

Automation comes for us all. It's no excuse to pay people less. It's an excuse to find a better system. Because those sabot certain didn't stop it.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Democracy can only last until people figure out they can vote themselves free stuff. Then its just a race to the bottom. Bernie isn't doing anything but saying "vote for me and I'll give you free!" He's just buying support. He appeals to our most base instincts when we should aim higher.

This applies both directions. The wealthy have been voting for their own money for years and the Republicans support it, meanwhile whining about anyone who's not rich voting money for themselves. News flash: The wealthy that you worship for working so hard really just instituted laws that eliminated competition and ensured their place in the market would never be threatened no matter how shitty they became as a company. They voted for money for themselves, and you defend it.

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Good ole IP -- Owned by the Koch Brothers. If you think automation is only coming for low wage workers because of the impending wage increase I have a bridge to sell you.

Yeah, people don't seem to realize that if raising wages is what causes automation, then the jobs that automation is coming for first are the higher paid people.

How you know that it's JUST propaganda when they bring up automation every time minimum wage hike is mentioned: They don't seem to realize that employers are looking for ways to automate $30+/hr jobs. Why go for the cheap labor, even if the price does raise a little? The cost of a machine is much higher than the piddle you pay a minimum wage worker even at $15/hr.

No, it's the idiots who think their $35/hr job is safe from automation that should be worried.

[Captain N]

In the words of John Snow: Win...I mean Automation is coming.

Automation is coming for everyone. It'll come for the indoor manual labor first, which it already has in many places. Then it'll come for the outdoor manual labor as soon as they make the devices durable enough to endure extended use in the sun and weather. It'll start with the big, heavy, stupid jobs. Digging holes, bending things, breaking things, moving big heavy stuff. As fine mechanical motor control increases, it'll move its way up the ladder. It's already widely used in hospitals, just controlled by people. But that's just the next target. Once you have a machine that you can program to perform a task without any outside assistance you're golden.

If machines can control themselves to perform the same tasks humans can, then that also means they're thinking at least on the level required for that task. It may not be abstract thought, but if you program a machine with the information to address enough possible variables it won't really matter. It'll be able to cross-reference and connect the dots to create a faster, more exacting solution.

Automation comes for us all. It's no excuse to pay people less. It's an excuse to find a better system. Because those sabot certain didn't stop it.

This is spot on. As automation pushes through a majority of occupations (If I remember Connal's post from a few months back 85% of all jobs) we're going to have to find other ways to take care of our population. Basic Income would be the most optimal but you first have to convince those currently barely ahead of their bills that everyone is worth a basic lifestyle. These seem to be the folks who are all too eager to complain about helping the lowest of workers yet have no idea that once those below them drown the water is already at their own necks.

Yeah, people don't seem to realize that if raising wages is what causes automation, then the jobs that automation is coming for first are the higher paid people.

Exactly. You're doing a whole lot more for your profits if you can automate the middle management workers instead of the low wage workers who are often performing more than one task at any given time.

[alexkeren]

not true. sanders plan will raise 15 trillion over 10 years in increased revenue

But the overall cost of his plan is $33 trillion over that time.

33 - 15 = 18

[Deleted]

That sobering assessment comes from a joint analysis released Monday by the nonpartisan Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center and the Urban Institute Health Policy Center, well-known Washington think tanks.

Establishment "think tanks" were recruited to shoot down the one candidate the entire establishment hates? Oh, how surprising. This "study" isn't full of lies and propaganda, at all.

[Huehuecoyotl]

The UK spends 10% of its GDP on health, and covers everyone. The US spends 20% of its GDP on healthcare, and doesn't.

Over a 10 year period, you could in theory save trillions of dollars, possibly even 10s of trillions, and give your country a better overall standard of healthcare. But that would be dependent on breaking the hold that big pharma has on the country, and removing it from the teet currently squeezing out their massive profits. You bet your left nut they are going to react to that possibility.

Honestly, I think at this point that the big companies have such a level of control that violent revolution is the only way this kind of change is ever going to happen. Because there is no way in hell anyone proposing this kind of change will get through the current "democratic" process. And even if they did, the whole setup of the political structure is designed to provide plenty of ways for paid for political blocking.

[Vash The Stampede]

Yeah, people don't seem to realize that if raising wages is what causes automation, then the jobs that automation is coming for first are the higher paid people.

How you know that it's JUST propaganda when they bring up automation every time minimum wage hike is mentioned: They don't seem to realize that employers are looking for ways to automate $30+/hr jobs. Why go for the cheap labor, even if the price does raise a little? The cost of a machine is much higher than the piddle you pay a minimum wage worker even at $15/hr.

No, it's the idiots who think their $35/hr job is safe from automation that should be worried.

As someone who knows about tech, the first set of jobs to be lost are desk jobs. They have AI that writes articles for newspapers, and even creates songs. Wall Street is also entirely run by computers. It costs a lot more for machine to do physical labor, than it does for AI to deal with software.

You people think they're going to replace workers at Burger King for Atlas Robots? These machines cost more and do less than a teenager. But a software AI is dirt cheap compared to your salary.

[Cthulhu 2020]

As someone who knows about tech, the first set of jobs to be lost are desk jobs. They have AI that writes articles for newspapers, and even creates songs. Wall Street is also entirely run by computers. It costs a lot more for machine to do physical labor, than it does for AI to deal with software.

You people think they're going to replace workers at Burger King for Atlas Robots? These machines cost more and do less than a teenager. But a software AI is dirt cheap compared to your salary.

I haven't really seen many articles about this, but someone needs to write one, and it will go viral.

"You know how Republicans bring up automation every time minimum wage hike is talked about? Yeah, they're not coming for the jobs at Burger King, they're coming for your middle class desk job."

[Hooked]

Sanders is an old fool who only appeals to college students. His ideas are the very definition of pandering, outside of free shit and make the rich pay, sanders is a one trick phony. Sorry Bernie berkenstocks, not enough strung out hippies left in the usa to put you over the top, as groovy as you are.