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  1. #41
    The Insane Kujako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polyxo View Post
    Is there a good reason for them to do so? While it's not the same thing, I know the US military makes exceptions in military dress for sikh turbans.
    Because part of the intent behind military training, is to beat the individuality out of you.
    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.

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  2. #42
    Titan Tierbook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    Wrong. Go read the Federalist Papers and get back to me.
    No what he said is correct, your inability to understand that is irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I'd never compare him to Hitler, Hitler was actually well educated, and by all accounts pretty intelligent.

  3. #43
    The Lightbringer Dr Assbandit's Avatar
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    If they have a strict dress code that is held to the same standard for everyone then she shouldn't go in expecting special privileges denied to others. There are many other schools that will allow her a hijab and she should pursue those avenues.
    "It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all outta ass."

    I'm a British gay Muslim Pakistani American citizen, ask me how that works! (terribly)

  4. #44
    as long as one religious item applies to all religious items regardless said religion, I don't see an issue, she knew what she was signing up to

  5. #45
    Bloodsail Admiral Fooliecoolie's Avatar
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    The Citadel is not attached to the US military, cadets are still civilians but they can participate in ROTC units. The only official institutions that are attached are the United States Military Academy(aka West Point), United States Naval Academy(for both Navy and Marine Corps), US Air Force Academy, US Coast Guard Academy and US Merchant Marine Academy. The Citadel would be required to follow DOD standards if they were attached to the US military.

    DODD-1300.17

    A. REISSUANCE AND PURPOSE
    This Directive reissues reference (a) and, pursuant to references (b) and (c), prescribes policy, procedures, and responsibilities for the accommodation of religious practices in the Military Services.

    horizontal rule

    C. POLICY

    A basic principle of our nation is free exercise of religion. The Department of Defense places a high value on the rights of members of the Armed Forces to observe the tenets of their respective religions. It is DoD policy that requests for accommodation of religious practices should be approved by commanders when accommodation will not have an adverse impact on military readiness, unit cohesion, standards or discipline.
    The following goals are to be used by the Military Departments in the development of guidance on the exercise of command discretion concerning the accommodation of religious practices. Nothing in these goals or in the implementing rules of the Military Departments (except when expressly provided therein) shall be interpreted as requiring a specific form of accommodation in individual circumstances.
    a. Worship services, holy days, and Sabbath observance should be accommodated, except when precluded by military necessity.

    b. The Military Departments should include religious belief as one factor for consideration when granting separate rations, and permit commanders to authorize individuals to provide their own supplemental food rations in a field or "at sea" environment to accommodate their religious beliefs.

    c. The Military Departments should consider religious beliefs as a factor for waiver of immunizations, subject to medical risks to the unit and military requirements, such as alert status and deployment potential.

    d. The Military Departments should include relevant materials on religious traditions, practices, and policies in the curricula for command, judge advocate, chaplain, and similar courses and orientations.

    e. The Military Departments should develop a statement advising of DoD policy on individual religious practices and military requirements to applicants for commissioning, enlistment, and reenlistment.

    f. Religious items or articles not visible or otherwise apparent may be worn with the uniform, provided they shall not interfere with the performance of the member's military duties, as discussed in subparagraph C.2.g.(5), below, or interfere with the proper wearing of any authorized article of the uniform.

    g. Under Public Law 100-180, section 508 (reference (c)), members of the Armed Forces may wear visible items of religious apparel while in uniform, except under circumstances in which an item is not neat and conservative or its wearing shall interfere with the performance of the member's military duties.

    Under this Directive, "religious apparel" is defined as articles of clothing worn as part of the doctrinal or traditional observance of the religious faith practiced by the member. Hair and grooming practices required or observed by religious groups are not included within the meaning of religious apparel. Jewelry bearing religious inscriptions or otherwise indicating religious affiliation or belief is subject to existing Service uniform regulations just as jewelry that is not of a religious nature.
    In the context of the wearing of a military uniform, "neat and conservative" items of religious apparel are those that:
    (a) Are discreet, tidy, and not dissonant or showy in style, size, design, brightness, or color.

    (b) Do not replace or interfere with the proper wearing of any authorized article of the uniform.

    (c) Are not temporarily or permanently affixed or appended to any authorized article of the uniform.

    The standards in subparagraph C.2.g.(2), above, are intended to serve as a basis for determining a member's entitlement under Public Law 100- 180, section 508 (reference (c)), to wear religious apparel with the uniform. For example, unless prohibited by subparagraph C.2.g.(6), below, a Jewish yarmulke may be worn with the uniform whenever a military cap, hat, or other headgear is not prescribed. A yarmulke may also be worn underneath military headgear as long as it does not interfere with the proper wearing, functioning, or appearance of the prescribed headgear.
    Exceptions to the standards in subparagraph C.2.g.(2), above, and other special accommodations for members of particular religious groups may be granted by the Military Departments under section D., below.
    Whether an item of religious apparel interferes with the performance of the member's military duties depends on the characteristics of the item, the circumstances of its intended wear, and the particular nature of the member's duties. Factors in determining if an item of religious apparel interferes with military duties include, but are not limited to, whether the item may:
    (a) Impair the safe and effective operation of weapons, military equipment, or machinery.

    (b) Pose a health or safety hazard to the wearer or others.

    (c) Interfere with the wearing or proper functioning of special or protective clothing or equipment (e.g., helmets, flack jackets, flight suits, camouflaged uniforms, gas masks, wet suits, and crash and rescue equipment).

    (d) Otherwise impair the accomplishment of the military mission.

    A complete prohibition on the wearing of any visible items of religious apparel may be appropriate under unique circumstances in which the member's duties, the military mission, or the maintenance of discipline require absolute uniformity. For example, members may be prohibited from wearing visible religious apparel while wearing historical or ceremonial uniforms; participating in review formations, parades, honor or color guards, and similar ceremonial details and functions.
    The authority to approve the wearing of an item of religious apparel with the uniform, under the guidelines of this paragraph, shall be exercised at the command level specified by each Military Department. Denials of requests to wear religious apparel shall be subject to review at the Service Headquarters level. Final review shall occur within 30 days following the date of initial denial for cases arising in the United States, and within 60 days for all other cases. Exceptions to these deadlines shall be limited to exigent circumstances, such as extended deployment. Service members shall be obliged to comply with orders prohibiting the wearing of questionable items of religious apparel pending review of such orders under regulations issued by the Secretaries of the Military Departments.
    h. Notwithstanding paragraphs C.2.f. and g., above, chaplains may wear any required religious apparel or accouterments with the uniform while conducting worship services and during the performance of rites and rituals distinct to their faith groups.
    D. PROCEDURES

    Under rules prescribed by the Secretary of the Military Department concerned, military commanders should consider the following factors along with any other factors deemed appropriate in determining whether to grant a request for accommodation of religious practices addressed in section C., above:
    a. The importance of military requirements in terms of individual and unit readiness, health and safety, discipline, morale, and cohesion.

    b. The religious importance of the accommodation to the requester.

    c. The cumulative impact of repeated accommodations of a similar nature.

    d. Alternative means available to meet the requested accommodation.

    e. Previous treatment of the same or similar requests, including treatment of similar requests made for other than religious reasons.

    The factors in subsection D.1, above, are intended to promote standard procedure for resolving difficult questions involving accommodation of religious practices. In view of the different mission requirements of each command, individual consideration of specific requests for accommodation is necessary; With the exception of requests involving the wearing of visible items of religious apparel with the uniform, denials of which must be reviewed at the Service Headquarters level, the appropriate level of command for resolution of these issues shall be determined by each of the Military Departments, based on its particular requirements and circumstances.
    When requests for accommodation are not in the best interest of the unit and continued tension between the unit's requirements and the individual's religious beliefs is apparent, administrative actions should be considered. These actions may include, but are not limited to, assignment, reassignment, reclassification, or separation. Nothing in this Directive precludes action under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (reference (d)) in appropriate circumstances.
    Last edited by Fooliecoolie; 2016-05-11 at 06:17 PM.

  6. #46
    There is no room for highly religious people (those who wear hijab) in military.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    Not allowing her goes against everything America stands for.

    Really sad!

    Not at all ... but I expected nothing else from you.
    How to tell if somebody learned World Geography in school or from SNL:
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    PALIN: They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska."
    SNL: Can't be Diomede Islands, say her backyard instead.

  8. #48
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    There is no room for highly religious people (those who wear hijab) in military.
    You've displayed a double helping of ignorance here: 1) the Citadel is, for all its military trappings and focus, still a private institution, and, 2) your contrafactual assertion that there's no place for the devoutly religious (including those who wear head coverings for religious reasons, in the military.

    For the US military, that latter point is explicitly established by the DoD instruction on Accommodation of Religious Practices Within the Military Services (updated Jan. 2014) (pdf link), which reads in part,
    5. In accordance with section 774 of Reference (eg), members of the Military Services may wear
    items of religious apparel while in uniform, except where the items would interfere with the
    performance of military duties or the item is not neat and conservative. The Military
    Departments shall prescribe regulations on the wear of such items. Factors used to determine if
    an item of religious apparel interferes with military duties include, but are not limited to, whether
    or not the item:

    a. Impairs the safe and effective operation of weapons, military equipment, or machinery.

    b. Poses a health or safety hazard to the Service member wearing the religious apparel
    and/or others.

    c. Interferes with the wear or proper function of special or protective clothing or equipment
    (e.g., helmets, flak jackets, flight suits, camouflaged uniforms, gas protective masks, wet suits,
    and crash and rescue equipment).

    d. Otherwise impairs the accomplishment of the military mission.
    Now, they're not being actively stupid about it - but there's plenty of room for reasonable implementation, like this gentleman:


    (All that said, I think the Citadel, as a truly private institution, is well within their rights to deny special religious dress accommodations.)
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    You've displayed a double helping of ignorance here
    I didn't claim there is no room in USA military, I just expressed my personal opinion. You've just displayed your pathetic comprehension skills here, which isn't shocking since this is mmo-c.

  10. #50
    The Lightbringer Dr Assbandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    I didn't claim there is no room in USA military, I just expressed my personal opinion. You've just displayed your pathetic comprehension skills here, which isn't shocking since this is mmo-c.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    There is no room for highly religious people (those who wear hijab) in military.
    "It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all outta ass."

    I'm a British gay Muslim Pakistani American citizen, ask me how that works! (terribly)

  11. #51
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    I didn't claim there is no room in USA military, I just expressed my personal opinion. You've just displayed your pathetic comprehension skills here, which isn't shocking since this is mmo-c.
    You can express your personal opinion that 2+2 = 5 and that the sun rises in the North, but you're still going to be wrong - nice job trying to dodge the fact that you didn't know the Citadel was private, though. (Are you now going to try to pretend you weren't talking about the Citadel at all, and had dropped in the thread to randomly toss off your "opinion" on a completely tangential point? )
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    You can express your personal opinion that 2+2 = 5 and that the sun rises in the North, but you're still going to be wrong - nice job trying to dodge the fact that you didn't know the Citadel was private, though. (Are you now going to try to pretend you weren't talking about the Citadel at all, and had dropped in the thread to randomly toss off your "opinion" on a completely tangential point? )
    I read previous post stating that this particular college was private, however, that didn't hold me expressing my opinion on the issue. "There is no room for religious people in military"... it's not describing USA military, it's purely my opinion. Since my opinion is not making a statement about USA's system, I am not sure how the system in USA is a counter example to my opinion. Moving on, as expected from an average American, high level of ignorance is displayed without hesitation. There are certain military around the world implementing what I said fully. One of them is Turkish Military. You are highly religious? You aren't stepping into Turkish military.

    So, what I said is my opinion, which is not describing the system in USA, and is actually implemented in certain military, effectively making me right.

    You are ignorant, lack reasoning and have poor comprehension skills.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2016-05-11 at 07:35 PM.

  13. #53
    Rules of the academy. Now for those people out their who swear they are losing their precious religious freedom. Maybe.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Assbandit View Post
    This post, your avatar, nickname and signature says much about you. Spent 30 min in Gen-OT after some time, I am disappointed yet again.

  15. #55
    The Lightbringer Dr Assbandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    This post, your avatar, nickname and signature says much about you.


    And I'd say the first 4 letters of your username describe you aptly
    "It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all outta ass."

    I'm a British gay Muslim Pakistani American citizen, ask me how that works! (terribly)

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Assbandit View Post
    And I'd say the first 4 letters of your username describe you aptly
    As if I didn't see that coming.

  17. #57
    The Lightbringer Dr Assbandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    As if I didn't see that coming.
    Clever girl.
    "It's time to kick ass and chew bubblegum... and I'm all outta ass."

    I'm a British gay Muslim Pakistani American citizen, ask me how that works! (terribly)

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by ParanoiD84 View Post
    Christian cadets have been told not to display crosses, for example.
    This is the crucial post right here. This student can go to any other US military college, she can also go to this one if she decides to hone up to the uniform and take off her religious regalia.

  19. #59
    The Insane Underverse's Avatar
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    No problem here. Would it to be reasonable to ask for an accommodation to wear a colander on my head in service of the flying spaghetti monster? No. This is the military. Lives are on the line.

  20. #60
    Deleted
    Are atheists also not allowed because not displaying any religious symbol IS displaying a religious symbol?

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