What will you miss in Legion?

[Deleted User Guy]

I'll miss the old Survival priority/rotation, but the new version looks just as fun.

[Daedius]

Garrisons...!

:B

[Deleted]

Hellfire Citadel

[Firebyrd]

No doubt there's plenty of people that like specs that do poor damage, and don't like ones that do great damage. The problem is it's very hard to gauge that at a broad level. But either way, my original question is the same: if you like (or liked, in MOP or whatever) survival, what about it specifically do you like? "I had fun with it" is a perfectly fine reason to like and play a spec, but not really for building anything around. As a followup I proposed that people who liked it in MOP but not in WOD were probably mostly responding to the lack of DPS rather than any significant changes to the spec, because there weren't any significant ones, but that's a side argument and not central to my real question.

I just don't see what any recent version of the spec has that BM or MM doesn't capture better (and if the answer is "I like the feel of hunter but DON'T like the BM or MM playstyle" that's fine too, but different from liking survival, and doesn't support keeping survival the same), and general statements like "I think it's fun" don't help my understanding. The only even partially solid answer I've read is that some people really prefer a spec that is similar to other available specs but maximally simple, and survival captured that for them (though so far I don't think anyone has actually said that, only people citing it as a reason for others). But I have to think that notion isn't popular enough to warrant a spec quite as straightforward as survival has been going forward.

It flowed well. It does not flow anymore. It also had variation due to having things that broke up the standard rotation like kill shot. It is completely static now. Even though it still has LnL procs, it feels like you're doing the exact same thing in the exact same way. I'm pretty sure I covered all this. I know I specifically mentioned flow. I know I specifically mentioned how RF and KS gave some variety. It does not have either of those things anymore. It is boring.

And as far as my opinion goes, SV has never felt like BM since I first tried it in Cata. Before 4.3, BM was the only spec that wasn't focus starved, and the management of using focus fire (even though it had less impact because of its more regular stacking and lack of AP) at the right time, pooling focus for BW, then unloading like crazy, all while managing the pet (I keep mine on passive to stop shenanigans. Less of those happen now with serpent sting gone and no longer ticking at just the wrong moment to pull a pet on assist back to an old target, but it's old habit at this point for me, plus there tend to be times when it makes more sense not to switch to an add that blows up quickly and lose all that travel time dps). SV, meanwhile, had the LnL procs, which feels different to me than anything BM has, and it used to require the weaving with arcane shot to properly use those. It could very well be that SV had lots of little things that I didn't appreciate because I play BM, period, that made them more samey, but that's not how it felt to me. It's always baffled me the way people complain about how the hunters are all the same, because compared to rogues (especially with how sub got simplified post-Cata), they're extremely different.

[Thursley]

It flowed well. It does not flow anymore. It also had variation due to having things that broke up the standard rotation like kill shot. It is completely static now. Even though it still has LnL procs, it feels like you're doing the exact same thing in the exact same way. I'm pretty sure I covered all this. I know I specifically mentioned flow. I know I specifically mentioned how RF and KS gave some variety. It does not have either of those things anymore. It is boring.

And as far as my opinion goes, SV has never felt like BM since I first tried it in Cata. Before 4.3, BM was the only spec that wasn't focus starved, and the management of using focus fire (even though it had less impact because of its more regular stacking and lack of AP) at the right time, pooling focus for BW, then unloading like crazy, all while managing the pet (I keep mine on passive to stop shenanigans. Less of those happen now with serpent sting gone and no longer ticking at just the wrong moment to pull a pet on assist back to an old target, but it's old habit at this point for me, plus there tend to be times when it makes more sense not to switch to an add that blows up quickly and lose all that travel time dps). SV, meanwhile, had the LnL procs, which feels different to me than anything BM has, and it used to require the weaving with arcane shot to properly use those. It could very well be that SV had lots of little things that I didn't appreciate because I play BM, period, that made them more samey, but that's not how it felt to me. It's always baffled me the way people complain about how the hunters are all the same, because compared to rogues (especially with how sub got simplified post-Cata), they're extremely different.

What do you mean exactly by "flow"? I don't have the beta so I can't play it now to see what's different, but can you describe what aspects of the old rotation felt like they flowed naturally, and why it doesn't any more? The way I would interpret that term makes the second half of your statement confusing, because having "rapid fire and kill shot break up the standard rotation" could also be said as "rapid fire and kill shot break up the flow of the rotation." Personally I still don't see rapid fire or kill shot as things that add meaningful variety to the rotation, but we can just agree to disagree on this point. Blizzard must have felt simply returning the spec to the cata/MOP version wasn't good enough, and I guess after their attempt to change the spec in the WOD beta failed they were essentially out of ideas for ways to make the spec more interesting without completely redoing it.

I think you're right about rogue specs being even more homogenized than hunters historically. However I don't know how much that counts for, because both are clear outliers from the other classes in this department (at least since warlocks got their revamp), even if rogue was a little worse. And it seems like Blizzard agreed because (based on my admittedly limited knowledge of rogues in Legion) both classes have had a lot of revisions to specs in Legion, including at least 1 spec with major changes.

[FertsBlert]

Traps, Killshot, the MD glyph and Tranq as BM.

So many options just plain gone I've run into mobs at several times in the beta that had a buff I wanted gone or had an enrage, the aggro holding of the pet is shite once you get your artifact leveled a bit on any mob that the pet isn't focused on it'd be nice to be able to say "wait your turn I'll get to you in a bit" or keep the mobs MD'd to the pet and Killshot was just plain good gave me something to look forward to when mobs started getting a bit low on health "wait for it, wait for it, BOOM HEADSHOT mofo, lol"

[Radaney]

Nothing. Legion hunters are amazing compared to live. Sadly that can't be said about well..Any other class

I have not played Hunter, what spec do you think I should test on beta?

[Luxeley]

Pretty much everything, I truly hate how they consistently dumb down the game and strip it of more and more complexity. I hated ability pruning in WOD and don't like the idea of it in Legion. But, I do recognize they are adding new abilities and play styles in Legion. I'll be open minded and give Legion a fair shot, but if I really don't like it, the benefit of the doubt after the WOD trash is long gone, I will finally be done with WOW.

[Malmmoc]

My top 5 things I'll miss:

1. 10 second cooldown on disengage
2. nice long distance on glyphed disengage
3. 2 charges of deterrence on a 2 min recharge (made it feel so much more ok to use often)
4. misdirect cd being reset when used on pet
5. MM (as fully mobile priority add beast)


There is a lot more than 5 things on my list, but these were the biggest nerfs to fun for me. A great many classes in Legion look like they are upgrades over WoD (for my personal taste / preferences), but sadly my favorite spec in the game wasn't one of them.

[DeiVias]

Nothing. Legion hunters are amazing compared to live. Sadly that can't be said about well..Any other class

Sarcasm?

No one that's played BM on beta would say it's better then live, it's an abomination.

We get 6% dodge from an artifact trait, that there shows how much effort they have put in to BM lol

[swango]

Aspect of the Fox.

[Firebyrd]

What do you mean exactly by "flow"? I don't have the beta so I can't play it now to see what's different, but can you describe what aspects of the old rotation felt like they flowed naturally, and why it doesn't any more? The way I would interpret that term makes the second half of your statement confusing, because having "rapid fire and kill shot break up the standard rotation" could also be said as "rapid fire and kill shot break up the flow of the rotation." Personally I still don't see rapid fire or kill shot as things that add meaningful variety to the rotation, but we can just agree to disagree on this point. Blizzard must have felt simply returning the spec to the cata/MOP version wasn't good enough, and I guess after their attempt to change the spec in the WOD beta failed they were essentially out of ideas for ways to make the spec more interesting without completely redoing it.

I think you're right about rogue specs being even more homogenized than hunters historically. However I don't know how much that counts for, because both are clear outliers from the other classes in this department (at least since warlocks got their revamp), even if rogue was a little worse. And it seems like Blizzard agreed because (based on my admittedly limited knowledge of rogues in Legion) both classes have had a lot of revisions to specs in Legion, including at least 1 spec with major changes.

I honestly don't know how to describe it better. And having RF and KS didn't break up the flow, it just helped things alternate some to keep things from getting boring. As I think back, LnL felt more exciting than it does now, presumably because it didn't proc as often (and the arcane shot weaving made you feel cool and skilled, much as using Borrowed Time to get both a sped up Penance and some other spell used to feel with disc). LnL is guaranteed, what, two procs per BA now? This is partly why Celestalon is so damn bad at class design, I think. He just seems to look at numbers and not the overall feel, which can't always be described well. Like, I haven't played frost dk a ton, but when I have, having lots of Killing Machine procs seems fun and exciting and it seems like if there were fewer, it would feel bad (much as Fire depends on lots of instant Pyroblasts to feel fun). More LnL, though, potentially contributed to the spec seeming less exciting.

If Kill Shot had never existed, maybe the idea of it wouldn't have contributed much to the spec, but after a decade of having it, suddenly not having it felt bad. It felt bad to do nothing different sub-20%. It's the whole thing about how it's worse to have something taken away than to never have it at all. When I pop on my SV hunter, I still frequently start to try to mash the button when mobs get low health (which probably says more about how often I play her for things other than crafting than anything, but it happens).

I bring up the rogues, because to me, it's felt like Blizz has focused more on hunters and mucked them up in the process when rogues were in worse shape as far as homogenization went. I honestly think with SV gone melee, they could have left current BM and MM as they were and things would have felt fine and diversified. I seem to be in the minority with thinking they had plenty of distinction already, but Blizzard classes already have so much more distinction than any other MMO I've tried. In most of them, the classes seem to have one or two distinct resources and play very similar beyond that (take FFXIV and their combos on most of the melee classes. The abilities might be named differently, but if I'm playing a monk? I'm lining up combos of the same abilities over and over. Dragoon? Same thing. Etc.). I remember thinking SW:TOR classes had rage or mana and nothing else. So even in one of the least diversified classes, Blizz seems to have more variety.

[Delaios]

This may sound insincere but I'm asking in all honesty: what is it actually about survival on live that you enjoy? As in, not worrying about the actual damage or anything, but about the playstyle of the spec. It doesn't have any interesting functionality that I can see. There's no unique resource, no DOTs to manage (applying serpent sting as an AOE is hardly multi-dotting), no positional or movement requirements, no buffs to maintain, no extra abilities to weave in situationally such as for an execute, and not even a unique cooldown to use, never mind one that changes gameplay in an interesting way. You use black arrow and explosive shot on cooldown, then hit explosive shot a few more times when your screen lights up for lock and load. Arcane shot with extra focus, otherwise cobra shot.

Even going back to MOP when survival still had rapid fire and kill shot, it wasn't really that different. Back then the only interesting thing about the spec was the SOO set bonus that sometimes let you spam explosive shot endlessly. Is hitting the same button over and over really the most compelling gameplay they could come up with? At least there was an element of excitement when you got lucky and were able to do it like 15 times in a row or whatever, but still. And the spec has only gotten worse.

On live there's nothing to enjoy about Survival. It plays terribly and it has no strong points. The person responsible for the "revamp" of Survival going into WoD did a terrible job. The spec has no on demand burst, no AoE, mediocre sustained damage and it's boring to play.
It used to be good at AoE, but for some reason they removed Improved Serpent Sting. The option to do a weak multi-dot has been hampered with the removal of Cobra Shot refreshing Serpent Sting. You also used to be able to guarantee a proc of Lock n Load with traps. The spec would be in a much better place with all of that stuff re-instated.

[Bisso]

Sarcasm?

No one that's played BM on beta would say it's better then live, it's an abomination.

We get 6% dodge from an artifact trait, that there shows how much effort they have put in to BM lol

I didn't know about that, just looked it up because I couldn't believe you. da f*ck?

[Deleted]

Current version of starfall ;(

[Firebyrd]

I didn't know about that, just looked it up because I couldn't believe you. da f*ck?

Yeah. I mean, if the complete lack of iteration of BM wasn't clue enough, stuff like this just makes it even more blatant they neither understand hunters nor give a shit about them.

[Radaney]

I might miss seeing Rogues. Probably not tbh.

[Salty Maud]

Hunter. 10 chars.

[Marmot]

Hunter. 10 chars.

Amen friend.