1. #6821
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    So in case anyone is wondering how fucked up the points system is, let me give you a story in numbers:

    Started season, 2400. almost 200 points below my last full season final and 600 points below my season high. (Almost had Diamond that season)
    Played up to plat.
    Every time I eclipsed 2500, the game started handing me my ass in massive losing streaks.
    Season high this season is 2704.
    Currently I'm at 1997 and about to be in silver for the first time ever since this ranking system was added in S2.

    Do you want to know the number of loss differential it took to fall that low? 6

    Record this season: 403-409-27 (49.57%Win Rate) This is the most unrewarding, negative piece of shit change blizzard has ever done to PvP in their games. And I've played WoW since it launched, so that's saying something.
    I seem to be having the opposite, where I'm gaining more for my wins than losing, over the last couple of days. Was at 2606 this morning, lost 4 games and dropped about 75-80 points. Later in the day, I won 3 and gained it all back and then some. I thought it might have been because 90% of my games I'm solo healing, but then I had a few game playing as Zen and those 2 games I earned roughly 40 a piece.
    The Zen games truely make me question how the rating system works. 1 game I actually did pretty well and felt it was justified, the other I played like absolute garbage. I used Ult twice on defense, once just to get to our overextended Rein and get him back to choke safely, but the big one was a telegraphing Reaper trying to Ult. He was obviously trying to get into an Ult position, so I had my finger hovering over Q and listened specifically for him. He dropped behind me, and I pressed Q about a .25 of a second after he did and nullified him completely. Other than that I got a few kills, and our turn on attack we onlyneeded 1 tick and I wasn't ever alive for the pushes. That game earned me 40+, almost 50 if I remember correctly. Should not have earned that much based on how I played.

  2. #6822
    Quote Originally Posted by RadasNoir View Post
    Unless I'm missing something with the both of them, Genji and Widomaker seem to be the weakest of the additions to the Junkenstein Endless mode. Widowmaker especially. Everything she can do Ana, Hanzo, or Soldier can do either better or with more utility, and her Ultimate is absolutely worthless in that mode. Genji isn't quite as bad, since he can do decent damage in the hands of someone who knows how to play him, but I still don't know why you'd want to pick him over any of the other damage dealer characters since, again, most of them either bring more utility with them or have an easier time doing damage at a safer distance.
    Genji's good for a quick mop up, reflecting Roadhog's ult, and jumping onto Mercy, but really, those can be done by anyone else better as you said.

  3. #6823
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You know how it's harder for you to shoot them to heal them?

    Yeah. Same works for ENEMIES trying to shoot them.
    talking about the junkenstein event where jumping literally does not help
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  4. #6824
    Wish they released the Halloween event with an endless mode where you could pick any class. Kind of like the other Overwatch event with the omnics.

  5. #6825
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    So in case anyone is wondering how fucked up the points system is, let me give you a story in numbers:

    Started season, 2400. almost 200 points below my last full season final and 600 points below my season high. (Almost had Diamond that season)
    Played up to plat.
    Every time I eclipsed 2500, the game started handing me my ass in massive losing streaks.
    Season high this season is 2704.
    Currently I'm at 1997 and about to be in silver for the first time ever since this ranking system was added in S2.

    Do you want to know the number of loss differential it took to fall that low? 6

    Record this season: 403-409-27 (49.57%Win Rate) This is the most unrewarding, negative piece of shit change blizzard has ever done to PvP in their games. And I've played WoW since it launched, so that's saying something.
    What that strongly suggests is that you shouldn't have been as high as you were. So on average, you've been losing more points than winning, until you dropped down to where you should be.

    That's exactly how the system is meant to work. The adjustments to SR gains and losses are meant to give you more of a shift, if your performance is out of line with your current rank. Nothing you described here shows that there's any kind of flaw in the system, just the system working exactly as intended.

  6. #6826
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    That's exactly how the system is meant to work.
    *yawn* same stupid bullshit, another day. I guess you conveniently overlooked my rating in all other seasons which I specifically mentioned. It's not convenient to your robot argument, so why acknowledge it right? I guess I forgot I had an arm amputated so I'm playing at half the skill level I've had 1.5 years. EYYYEEEEROLLLL.
    BAD WOLF

  7. #6827
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    *yawn* same stupid bullshit, another day. I guess you conveniently overlooked my rating in all other seasons which I specifically mentioned. It's not convenient to your robot argument, so why acknowledge it right? I guess I forgot I had an arm amputated so I'm playing at half the skill level I've had 1.5 years. EYYYEEEEROLLLL.
    Throwing a tantrum really doesn't help your case. There's a simple explanation for the results you're seeing. You just don't want to accept that explanation.

  8. #6828
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    Wish they released the Halloween event with an endless mode where you could pick any class. Kind of like the other Overwatch event with the omnics.
    I did really enjoy the alternate "any hero" option on the anniversary event, but I also feel like there are some heroes that would probably make this event too easy given its set up of slowing marching omnics in three steady streams. Mowing them down with an Orisa or Bastion or something with area denial would probably cheese it too much, or make those heroes mandatory picks and maybe a little less fun.

    So, yeah, kinda conflicted because I can see both ways.
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  9. #6829
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I did really enjoy the alternate "any hero" option on the anniversary event, but I also feel like there are some heroes that would probably make this event too easy given its set up of slowing marching omnics in three steady streams. Mowing them down with an Orisa or Bastion or something with area denial would probably cheese it too much, or make those heroes mandatory picks and maybe a little less fun.

    So, yeah, kinda conflicted because I can see both ways.
    It doesn't really matter how much certain heroes can cheese a game, it's all meant for fun. If the players find it fun to run 4 Bastion against a horde of robots, more power to them.

  10. #6830
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    I did really enjoy the alternate "any hero" option on the anniversary event, but I also feel like there are some heroes that would probably make this event too easy given its set up of slowing marching omnics in three steady streams. Mowing them down with an Orisa or Bastion or something with area denial would probably cheese it too much, or make those heroes mandatory picks and maybe a little less fun.

    So, yeah, kinda conflicted because I can see both ways.
    Well yeah, bastion would annihilate the hog, Pharah could destroy anyone (since all incoming damage apart from hog/reaper are projectiles), Orisa/Rein/Mei could prevent a robot from damaging the door, Sym could cover the front area by herself with her turrets and the the left side with her RMB...Mhm...

    At least they gave us more heroes to play with instead of sticking with 4, so that's something.
    If you have to attack a person instead of what they're saying, then you've already lost the argument.

  11. #6831
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    It doesn't really matter how much certain heroes can cheese a game, it's all meant for fun. If the players find it fun to run 4 Bastion against a horde of robots, more power to them.
    You can use Custom games to go any hero.

  12. #6832
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Throwing a tantrum really doesn't help your case. There's a simple explanation for the results you're seeing. You just don't want to accept that explanation.
    I did realize countering inane repetition with logic was 'throwing a tantrum'. Can't even imagine what dystopian horrors are going on in your brain. Too bad moderators can't be ignored, especially when all they do is provide veiled insults and the equivalent of 'ur bad' in every post they do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    You can use Custom games to go any hero.
    Yeah, but rewards and achievements aren't there so it's really not as fun. They really should just add these game modes into the arcade rotation.
    BAD WOLF

  13. #6833
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    What that strongly suggests is that you shouldn't have been as high as you were. So on average, you've been losing more points than winning, until you dropped down to where you should be.

    That's exactly how the system is meant to work. The adjustments to SR gains and losses are meant to give you more of a shift, if your performance is out of line with your current rank. Nothing you described here shows that there's any kind of flaw in the system, just the system working exactly as intended.
    That's the crux of the issue though, isn't it? In your examples, how does the SR system determine where you should be? How is it when I am at 2200 I could lose 40 points 1 game, gain 15 the next for 1/2 a day, and then flip that right around? How does it then determine the same issue if you climb up to 2600 and decide to make you lose 15 points on a loss but gain 30-40 per win, when according to your example it determined I should have been in the 2100-2200 range the whole time?
    There is no consistency to the gain:loss ratio, nothing solid to say "this is how it's done," or "this is what it means.."

    - - - Updated - - -

    On the forum topic, I don't seem to have had any major losing streaks like I have in previous seasons. The worst one I had was about 5-6, but previous seasons I would go on a streak of about 10-15 with maybe 2-4 wins and then back to a small losing streak before going into a 14 game winning streak.
    Not sure if they tweaked matchmaking a bit or not, but feels good not having the same experience I had over the last 4 seasons.
    Also, had a game this morning at Lunar Colony, playing comp, round 2 my team is on defense and we go with no healers. We won. Shocked and awed, but felt good and confusing.

  14. #6834
    Genji is far more reliable taking out tires imo with RMB+SS, and he can take out Zombardiers while the other three deal with bosses. You can also take out Sym's generators and do decent damage to her with Dragonblade before zipping out, but I agree that he's far from optimal.

    I don't even see the point of Widowmaker unless you are Kephrii. The Zombardier's just focus her down and if things get hairy she has absolutely nothing to help with that.

    Torbjorn and Zenyatta are great additions though.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  15. #6835
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Torbjorn and Zenyatta are great additions though.
    To be honest, it seems like they are mandatory for the harder difficulties. The discord plus torbs just crazy damage output from turret is insane. Molten Core is up for every boss fight and I pretty much take out the tires with right click plus turret. Armor drops less than I thought it would, but I guess that is intentional.
    BAD WOLF

  16. #6836
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    That's the crux of the issue though, isn't it? In your examples, how does the SR system determine where you should be? How is it when I am at 2200 I could lose 40 points 1 game, gain 15 the next for 1/2 a day, and then flip that right around? How does it then determine the same issue if you climb up to 2600 and decide to make you lose 15 points on a loss but gain 30-40 per win, when according to your example it determined I should have been in the 2100-2200 range the whole time?
    There is no consistency to the gain:loss ratio, nothing solid to say "this is how it's done," or "this is what it means.."
    I seriously have to assume you folks A> aren't tracking your SR gains/losses, and are reacting off recalled impressions, and/or B> your performance is all over the place and you don't see that.

    I've been tracking my own SR gains and losses for several seasons, right around the gold/plat breakpoint (been anywhere from 1950-2700 the last two seasons the majority between 2450-2650, the low stuff was REAL early last season because I ended the season before at a low point).

    My SR gains and losses are VERY consistent. And when there's a weird value, it's almost always because I had an unusually good or bad match, or was pushed into playing something other than support (which I've been maining). And that makes sense to me, because I'm probably not quite as good at DPS or tanking after focusing on support so much.

    As for how it determines this, we know the basics. It figures out from your performance overall where it thinks you "should be". The performance in any individual match also factors in. As does the combined SR difference between teams. Factor all those in, and that's what adjusts the win or loss value up or down from the 25 I assume is the baseline (that's what my data tends to balance out around, at least).

    I'm not trying to be rude or condescending. I'm not claiming people are "bad". But the rank system is not a progression system, and people seem to forget that. Its purpose is to find your rank, stick you there, and keep you there. The only reason it should change all that much is if your personal performance isn't in line with that position; if you're consistently playing better, it'll reward you more points and penalize you less, and you'll tend to climb. Vice versa if it's flagging.

    And we're talking about a moving baseline. Everyone's improving slowly. A rank 2500 player today is probably better at the game than a rank 2500 player in Season 2. If you want to climb ranking, you need to be improving personally at a faster rate than the average player of your rank.

    Can't really get more specific than this; Blizzard is deliberately cagey about exactly how this is all evaluated, because they don't want people gaming the system rather than just trying to play well. But while there are people out there complaining the system is broken, there's a lot of us tracking our data who don't see it.

    Track your data. Track all your SR gains and losses. Get some actual data to try and back your assertions, a full season worth of match-by-match data, including heroes played if possible. You won't convince anyone by complaining about how the system feels if you don't have data to demonstrate an actual problem, especially when there's data that shows there isn't such a problem.

  17. #6837
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Meanwhile his Winston is also dead from over-extending. His team is worse off without Winston than mine without Widow. Seen it so many times, in QP and in Comp, in QP Winston will always try to farm me, but it's the same shit, he's ignoring his team and his objective and leaving his role. In comp, they just don't seem to do that, for obvious reasons, which gives Widow a lot more space to work. If it's Genji chasing, he's just doing what he should be; unless Winston has switched specifically to counter me from another DPS which is another plus for my team because there's plenty Winston isn't good for.

    In a technical sense, yes, he's a great counter, but in a practical sense he doesn't bother me too much. And, I can always pick up Reaper or D.Va to counter him.
    It counts on the map and the enemy team build. If it is wide open and he splits off to deal with you his team will miss him, unless they have another tank to cover for him. if it is close he can deal with you and hop back to the action. Frankly Zenyatta playing peekaboo behind a wall is a better alternative to Winston. That and Widows escape hook is much faster now for get aways.
    If you push a button that finds you a 'random group' and it gives you a random group of people with random skill and random knowledge then you have no right to complain that a 'random group' button did what it was designed to do. The fault lies in your inability to make friends to play with instead of relying on a button designed to be random. It is a 'random group' button, not a 'best of the best' button.

  18. #6838
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    It counts on the map and the enemy team build. If it is wide open and he splits off to deal with you his team will miss him, unless they have another tank to cover for him. if it is close he can deal with you and hop back to the action. Frankly Zenyatta playing peekaboo behind a wall is a better alternative to Winston. That and Widows escape hook is much faster now for get aways.
    I've played as Peek-a-boo Zen against a number of Widows, it makes me sad how effective it is. Once I realised, he moved very quickly up my target priority list. Not that he was ever low.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyway, 4 wins, 2 losses and a draw tonight. The draw and one of the losses were against smurfs boosting their customers "friends". It's infuriating how common it is, I'd love for a pure solo-queue mode just to avoid that shit. For all Kaplan's talk of Boosting being 'serious' and 'against the rules', they seem to take precious little action against it. They were talking of developing systems to pick it up and cut it out nearly a year ago now, but still we've seen nothing come of it.

    Either way, I'm 60SR up and have the new Mei skin so wasn't a complete waste of an evening.

  19. #6839
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I seriously have to assume you folks A> aren't tracking your SR gains/losses, and are reacting off recalled impressions, and/or B> your performance is all over the place and you don't see that.

    I've been tracking my own SR gains and losses for several seasons, right around the gold/plat breakpoint (been anywhere from 1950-2700 the last two seasons the majority between 2450-2650, the low stuff was REAL early last season because I ended the season before at a low point).

    My SR gains and losses are VERY consistent. And when there's a weird value, it's almost always because I had an unusually good or bad match, or was pushed into playing something other than support (which I've been maining). And that makes sense to me, because I'm probably not quite as good at DPS or tanking after focusing on support so much.

    As for how it determines this, we know the basics. It figures out from your performance overall where it thinks you "should be". The performance in any individual match also factors in. As does the combined SR difference between teams. Factor all those in, and that's what adjusts the win or loss value up or down from the 25 I assume is the baseline (that's what my data tends to balance out around, at least).

    I'm not trying to be rude or condescending. I'm not claiming people are "bad". But the rank system is not a progression system, and people seem to forget that. Its purpose is to find your rank, stick you there, and keep you there. The only reason it should change all that much is if your personal performance isn't in line with that position; if you're consistently playing better, it'll reward you more points and penalize you less, and you'll tend to climb. Vice versa if it's flagging.

    And we're talking about a moving baseline. Everyone's improving slowly. A rank 2500 player today is probably better at the game than a rank 2500 player in Season 2. If you want to climb ranking, you need to be improving personally at a faster rate than the average player of your rank.

    Can't really get more specific than this; Blizzard is deliberately cagey about exactly how this is all evaluated, because they don't want people gaming the system rather than just trying to play well. But while there are people out there complaining the system is broken, there's a lot of us tracking our data who don't see it.

    Track your data. Track all your SR gains and losses. Get some actual data to try and back your assertions, a full season worth of match-by-match data, including heroes played if possible. You won't convince anyone by complaining about how the system feels if you don't have data to demonstrate an actual problem, especially when there's data that shows there isn't such a problem.
    You act as if I haven't been watching my gains/losses over the last 300 odd games I've played this season. It wasn't a month ago that I made comments about it not making sense that in 2200 rating I would gain 5 points and then lose 40, and the next few matches gain 20 and lose 15-25. You stated even then (yes, in 1 of your replies) that the ranking system was normal and was deciding that that is the ranking I should be at, stuck in that area between 2000-2300. Since then, I've climbed ever so slowly and lately my wins have been much greater gains than my losses, which by your logic the game is deciding I should actually be placed higher than what I am and is trying to help me get there with higher SR obtained.
    That makes little to no sense. I have not improved that much over a month, very little actually, and my stats are pretty consistent game to game. Hell, the most inconsistent match I had was yesterday where my team got stomped, I did a whopping 4K healing on Mercy over 2 rounds because either I was constantly dead or my team was, and I lost a whole whopping 5 points. There's no way a system you describe: weighs my performance against other players on that character, map, and team comp, and decides to only net me a 5 point loss when I played like absolute dogshit.

  20. #6840
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    You act as if I haven't been watching my gains/losses over the last 300 odd games I've played this season. It wasn't a month ago that I made comments about it not making sense that in 2200 rating I would gain 5 points and then lose 40, and the next few matches gain 20 and lose 15-25. You stated even then (yes, in 1 of your replies) that the ranking system was normal and was deciding that that is the ranking I should be at, stuck in that area between 2000-2300. Since then, I've climbed ever so slowly and lately my wins have been much greater gains than my losses, which by your logic the game is deciding I should actually be placed higher than what I am and is trying to help me get there with higher SR obtained.
    That makes little to no sense. I have not improved that much over a month, very little actually, and my stats are pretty consistent game to game. Hell, the most inconsistent match I had was yesterday where my team got stomped, I did a whopping 4K healing on Mercy over 2 rounds because either I was constantly dead or my team was, and I lost a whole whopping 5 points. There's no way a system you describe: weighs my performance against other players on that character, map, and team comp, and decides to only net me a 5 point loss when I played like absolute dogshit.
    Given that plenty of people, like myself, do not see the same kinds of results is why I keep suggesting that the variable that's changing (the player) is what makes the difference, here. If it were a problem with the system as a whole, we'd all be seeing that kind of behaviour, and we're not.

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