So how are your games going lately? [megathread]

[Freighter]

Playing placement matches now, will be interesting to see what division I get.

[kaamila]

Playing placement matches now, will be interesting to see what division I get.

did you already play in a previous season? because if so, thats around the same rank youll be regardless how well you play.

[tankbug]

Snipers may only be useful in the hands of the skilled, but they're the only ones getting singled out and shat on constantly if the team loses for whatever reason. Bad Tracer? Bad Phara? Bad Soldier? People don't believe these exist, and they will not be targeted for blame.

[Jessicka]

I've said countless times, the binary dichotomy of snipers is a total myth. They are probably the purest skill based class, but there are many, many 'average' snipers out there who fall between GM and Bronze, and are seemingly ranked appropriately. That's the nature of human skills and ability; different people can do different thinks to different standards. Everyone can run, but it doesn't mean only Usain Bolt should be allowed to.

I don't understand this idea that you must be able to play them to GM level, or not at all; because that spread in ability would not happen if that was the case. I've played plenty of comp with Widows and Hanzos by now to just realise and accept that they're probably going to do well enough where they are; I've seen them carry and I've seen them suck, but mostly they just do as well as you'd expect any other hero to. They can usually deal with Pharmercy, they're great tank busters - especially if the other team are using Orisa - and they actual deal with supports unlike the flankers and 76s at this level who chase the target of Mercy's beam rather than Mercy herself.

[Deleted]

Snipers may only be useful in the hands of the skilled, but they're the only ones getting singled out and shat on constantly if the team loses for whatever reason. Bad Tracer? Bad Phara? Bad Soldier? People don't believe these exist, and they will not be targeted for blame.

That's not true. From my experience, often when the game is not going too well someone starts crying in voice chat how every DPS in the team is shit and their grandmother would play better. Doesn't matter if it's Hanzo or Soldier 76.

Granted it does happen more often with snipers.

[Deleted]

I've said countless times, the binary dichotomy of snipers is a total myth. They are probably the purest skill based class, but there are many, many 'average' snipers out there who fall between GM and Bronze, and are seemingly ranked appropriately. That's the nature of human skills and ability; different people can do different thinks to different standards. Everyone can run, but it doesn't mean only Usain Bolt should be allowed to.

I don't understand this idea that you must be able to play them to GM level, or not at all; because that spread in ability would not happen if that was the case. I've played plenty of comp with Widows and Hanzos by now to just realise and accept that they're probably going to do well enough where they are; I've seen them carry and I've seen them suck, but mostly they just do as well as you'd expect any other hero to. They can usually deal with Pharmercy, they're great tank busters - especially if the other team are using Orisa - and they actual deal with supports unlike the flankers and 76s at this level who chase the target of Mercy's beam rather than Mercy herself.

Probably because most of the time when you play a KoTH map and you have 1 or 2 snipers in your team. Its a insta loss.
most snipers in this game don't get picks they just get killed over and over and don't switch so making it a 4v6/5v6.

I fucking hate snipers in this game. I met 1 good one after 17 hours of competitive this season.

[Jessicka]

Probably because most of the time when you play a KoTH map and you have 1 or 2 snipers in your team. Its a insta loss.
most snipers in this game don't get picks they just get killed over and over and don't switch so making it a 4v6/5v6.

I fucking hate snipers in this game. I met 1 good one after 17 hours of competitive this season.

2 Snipers on KotH is just bad composition, it doesn't make snipers bad. I'd say the same going 2 harassers (Genji/Tracer/Sombra/McCree) on KotH, you have nothing that can actually hold point, so end up with the same issue.

[Deleted]

2 Snipers on KotH is just bad composition, it doesn't make snipers bad. I'd say the same going 2 harassers (Genji/Tracer/Sombra/McCree) on KotH, you have nothing that can actually hold point, so end up with the same issue.

At least the harrasers actually do dmg.
Snipers sit in the back watching IZombie on Netflix and eating unsalted popcorn.

As I said, 1 good sniper in 17 hours of Comp vs 10's of good genji's and tracers.

Snipers give them selfs a bad rep but you do see that seeing you are a sniper main your self.

[Jessicka]

At least the harrasers actually do dmg.
Snipers sit in the back watching IZombie on Netflix and eating unsalted popcorn.

As I said, 1 good sniper in 17 hours of Comp vs 10's of good genji's and tracers.

Snipers give them selfs a bad rep but you do see that seeing you are a sniper main your self.

I main D.Va in comp. And, playing tank, I have more issue with too many flankers/harassers because people think that's "okay" or "legit", but wonder why they lose when they can't actually hold any ground - you take the point, and they're immediately off it chasing shadows and looking for a 1v6. At least a Sniper will help hold ground by picking off people who trickle in; as well they do.

[Deleted]

I main D.Va in comp. And, playing tank, I have more issue with too many flankers/harassers because people think that's "okay" or "legit", but wonder why they lose when they can't actually hold any ground - you take the point, and they're immediately off it chasing shadows and looking for a 1v6. At least a Sniper will help hold ground by picking off people who trickle in; as well they do.

A "decent" sniper.
Which 99% of the snipers aren't.

How bout when you are fighting on the point and your sniper is 200 miles away shooting people in the hip not actually doing anything?
Would you not rather have a roadhog in the middle of the fight on the point shooting people in the hip?
Or a McCree? Or a Soldier?

The only thing a sniper is good for in a objective based game is picking people off. Something that the 1 guy I met in Comp did, he was also a masters smurf playing on a Plat account.
Every other Sniper is by definition useless as he doesn't do the one job hes there to do, to pick off AT LEAST 2 targets to make it a more favorable fight for the people on the objective.

Again. Everyone would rather have a "decent" ANYTHING else then a "decent" sniper.

[Endus]

I've said countless times, the binary dichotomy of snipers is a total myth. They are probably the purest skill based class, but there are many, many 'average' snipers out there who fall between GM and Bronze, and are seemingly ranked appropriately. That's the nature of human skills and ability; different people can do different thinks to different standards. Everyone can run, but it doesn't mean only Usain Bolt should be allowed to.

I don't understand this idea that you must be able to play them to GM level, or not at all; because that spread in ability would not happen if that was the case. I've played plenty of comp with Widows and Hanzos by now to just realise and accept that they're probably going to do well enough where they are; I've seen them carry and I've seen them suck, but mostly they just do as well as you'd expect any other hero to. They can usually deal with Pharmercy, they're great tank busters - especially if the other team are using Orisa - and they actual deal with supports unlike the flankers and 76s at this level who chase the target of Mercy's beam rather than Mercy herself.

The reason I say "you need to be outperforming the other heroes in terms of elims" is because you're not providing pressure on the objective the majority of the time, and you need to make up for that.

As the the binary dichotomy, it's because they have a high skill floor, combined with the above. An "okay" Widowmaker provides less to their team than an "okay" Soldier 76, so they end up being a detriment. Does it automatically mean your team loses? No. The other team might have issues too. It's just not helping.

The one exception is if you're okay with Widowmaker, and you're swapping to her to deal with a Phamercy combo that's killing your team, or the like. Widow's a great Pharah counter and Mercy can't stop her, since it's a one-shot to the head. I'm not saying Widowmaker doesn't have uses, I'm referring to people who "main" Widowmaker and refuse to play anything else.

[Jessicka]

The reason I say "you need to be outperforming the other heroes in terms of elims" is because you're not providing pressure on the objective the majority of the time, and you need to make up for that.

As the the binary dichotomy, it's because they have a high skill floor, combined with the above. An "okay" Widowmaker provides less to their team than an "okay" Soldier 76, so they end up being a detriment. Does it automatically mean your team loses? No. The other team might have issues too. It's just not helping.

The one exception is if you're okay with Widowmaker, and you're swapping to her to deal with a Phamercy combo that's killing your team, or the like. Widow's a great Pharah counter and Mercy can't stop her, since it's a one-shot to the head. I'm not saying Widowmaker doesn't have uses, I'm referring to people who "main" Widowmaker and refuse to play anything else.

But those underperforming and causing you to lose will sink, but strangely they all don't, nor do the good ones carry you to GM. Most hover at their mediocre rank... Being GM or Bronze does not exist for snipers, it's a lie. Plenty exist in that mid-ground.

They may have a high skill floor, but there is a lot more to them than twitch, you can overcome a lot of that with positioning, situational awareness and experience that creates expectation and knowing where to look. This is where the mid-ground exists.

[Endus]

But those underperforming and causing you to lose will sink, but strangely they don't, they hover at their mediocre rank... GM or Bronze does not exist for snipers, it's a lie.

I assume they DO sink or climb. Most matches I play with a sniper hero on my team who isn't great, we lose, because of the factors I mentioned.

Plus, when new accounts get slotted into the mid-range, which is where I'm still ranked, there's always going to be an influx of new players.

[Freighter]

did you already play in a previous season? because if so, thats around the same rank youll be regardless how well you play.

No, first season. I got 2131, gold. Won 5, 1 draw, 4 losses or maybe it was 5 wins and 5 losses, can't remember.

[Jessicka]

I assume they DO sink or climb. Most matches I play with a sniper hero on my team who isn't great, we lose, because of the factors I mentioned.

Plus, when new accounts get slotted into the mid-range, which is where I'm still ranked, there's always going to be an influx of new players.

But this is the point, they don't sink or climb, you're deluded if you think all the ones you're encountering at mid-rank are just new.

It's rare I win or lose because of one player.

[Tziva]

I've said countless times, the binary dichotomy of snipers is a total myth. They are probably the purest skill based class, but there are many, many 'average' snipers out there who fall between GM and Bronze, and are seemingly ranked appropriately. That's the nature of human skills and ability; different people can do different thinks to different standards.

I don't think anyone is truly arguing that there are only awful snipers and amazing snipers and nothing in between. I think most people are arguing (as I am, at least for Widow) that if you're not an amazing sniper, you're probably more useful to the team on a different hero. The skill level to team contribution ratio is not equal for all heroes.

[Endus]

I don't think anyone is truly arguing that there are only awful snipers and amazing snipers and nothing in between. I think most people are arguing (as I am, at least for Widow) that if you're not an amazing sniper, you're probably more useful to the team on a different hero. The skill level to team contribution ratio is not equal for all heroes.

Right.

What I'm saying is that a Widowmaker and a Soldier 76 providing the same elimination count means the Soldier 76 is probably a better contribution to the team. He provides presence on the point, he's got some healing with his biotic field, and he's probably pushing more direct damage into things like Reinhardt shields to drop them so the team can get shots in.

All I'm saying is that, for Widowmaker to be a competitive pick, the player needs to be able to offset those weak points and make up for that elsewhere, and with Widowmaker, that's basically via headshotting everything you see.


The same applies to flankers, FWIW. A Reaper who sneaks around and jumps down and gets a single kill and runs away is probably doing way worse than the rest of his team, because of the time spent sneaking around, which doesn't contribute. Flanking's a great tactic, but if you do it right, it breaks the enemy team when you dive in. If you get a kill or two and escape/die and their defense didn't break because they're getting enough kills on YOUR team via attrition, then your flanking wasn't successful.

[Jessicka]

I don't think anyone is truly arguing that there are only awful snipers and amazing snipers and nothing in between. I think most people are arguing (as I am, at least for Widow) that if you're not an amazing sniper, you're probably more useful to the team on a different hero. The skill level to team contribution ratio is not equal for all heroes.

All things being equal, it basically is though; that's the whole point of balance and Widow hasn't been touched or mentioned in getting on for a year now. There will be situational variances, but unless you're suggesting that snipers are specifically very underpowered - which they're not - then you're just going back over the overall composition being bad. And, it's not bad always and specifically because someone picked a sniper.

People like you and Endus have very specific expectations of what you want them to do and be. You want them to be Kephrii's highlight reel and snap shot everyone all the time from grapple jumps. That's not even realistic for Kephrii most of the time and certainly not at levels below where they play. And you're never, ever going to get to play with players who can do that unless you're on their level with your main hero.

That's where this whole gap in perception and dichotomy really comes in, through this ridiculous expectation from seeing the high skill ceiling and that becoming a norm which you expect but never see. If you do see a player doing that, you won't be playing with them long.

And yes, Endus does think there's nothing in between, he's explicit in saying that in his follow up post that he assumes that they sink or climb - never settle.

[Fus Ro Yay]

so with only winning 2 out of my placement matches i got placed just above 2000 SR. while understandable, since i lost so many of my placement matches, its still frustrating, since im usually a mid plat player, and none of the matches were roflstomp one way or another, they were all very balanced and had clutch moments from both sides.
can't wait to get back home to actually claw my way back up the ladder.

[Jessicka]

Right.

What I'm saying is that a Widowmaker and a Soldier 76 providing the same elimination count means the Soldier 76 is probably a better contribution to the team. He provides presence on the point, he's got some healing with his biotic field, and he's probably pushing more direct damage into things like Reinhardt shields to drop them so the team can get shots in.

All I'm saying is that, for Widowmaker to be a competitive pick, the player needs to be able to offset those weak points and make up for that elsewhere, and with Widowmaker, that's basically via headshotting everything you see.

Not true, 76 gets high Elim rates by virtue of having automatic fire, same way DVa gets very high Elim rates; hitting with a couple of rounds or some splash from a Helix Rocket doesn't mean he made a definitive contribution to the kill. Also, he's being nerfed so 'pick OP hero' is a poor place to start your case.

Yes, he provides point presence and some beefiness from the self healing, but that would be the same argument against picking Tracer, Sombra, Genji or McCree over him.