Sweden votes yes to controversial Nato deal

[Deleted]

NATO better fucking stay out of Finland.

[Deleted]

Yeah but we are a great moral power!
Yeah, that anyone associated with that mess wasn't fired is a testament to how fucking corrupt our political system is.

But they didn't knooooow, how they could they have known!?

[muwatallis]

US bringing democracy to Swe, just the other way round.

[Deleted]

US bringing democracy to Swe, just the other way round.

Swedish democracy is a joke anyways, we have 7 parties who pretty much sit in broad agreement on some topics and shut anyone out that's critical of it and there's no way to get people to vote for parties that would change things up. Too little influence from the people to be able to change things.

[Aggrophobic]

Not sure what to say about this one. Staying neutral has worked well for us and I think I'd rather we stayed neutral.

[Skroe]

That's not non-trivial. The law should apply equally to everyone that's in Sweden. No special treatment.

Except for the fact that Sweden has no garnateed right to trial by jury in criminal cases. You may not look at it like we do, but from our perspective, that's deeply flawed. Let's spare ourselves the part where we go back and forth over how great/terrible jury trials are though. Legal Scholars broadly disagree and we're not legal scholars.

But if you want the biggest reason as to why the US plays hardball with foreign prosecution, this is why. It's not like someone going on a vacation and raping some girl. US Government employees go where they are told. And since in the US, you're innocent until proven guilty, and the burden of evidence lies on the accuser, it is philosophically consistent to think of jury trials as a protection against injustice. Going with that, anyone deployed overseas who doesn't have a jury trial under agreement with the US would be left unprotected.

Sometimes the US goes with that and is convinced that legal protections in foreign countries, though different, are up to US standards, and allows its citizens to be tried under foreign law. Sometimes it doesn't. It's case by case. From what I recall from the Julian Assange rape case, Sweden's legal system is highly regarded by the US. Going with that, I doubt there would be a problem.

But if you want a reason, this is why, and from our perspective, there are few bigger deals than the protection of our citizens rights when our citizens are being ordered to foreign lands. Stationing US forces is a negotiation, and this is part of the negotiation. The US will take the most it can get, and the host will try (and should try) to take the most they get. The result will be something nobody is completely pleased about. It's a compromise and civilized nations can do it.

[Shibito]

Incoming Shalcker and the rest

[PC2]

It's worked for Switzerland for hundreds of years.

Then they are exceptional, the majority of states have failed at convincing hegemons they are truly neutral.

[Skroe]

NATO better fucking stay out of Finland.

It won't. You can count on that.

Finland joining NATO one day makes a hysterical amount of sense.

[Amirila]

Who gives a shit what Russia says lol.

Sweden does, that's for sure

[Deleted]

I mean, Sweden is easily the most NATO-Ready military in the world along with Japan and Australia.

The process of bringing Poland into NATO has been a 15 year affair. It wasn't just signing some paper. It was reorganizing their entire defense structure, reequipping them with western-standarized gear. Retraining even the lowliest technician (NOT a minor deal considering training, manuals and institutional knowledge get handed down over decades). Poland has come a long way but it'll be another 10+ years before it's fully "there".

Sweden? They can change the letter head on some official documents, go down to a flag store and buy a NATO flag, and they're pretty much there.

Everyone forgets half of NATO. One half is the fighting force. The other half, the other half is the one making sure that 28 different nations (well 29 now) conform to equipment and tech standards. It's no small thing making sure an F-16 that takes off from the US could land in Germany and be maintained by a German crew no differently, and then flown to Norway where they do the same. Heck a big chunk of the F-35 program is a revolutionary new logistics systems designed to help ease this.

Sounds interessting. Not sure what he had to do with what I said though

[Deleted]

Except for the fact that Sweden has no garnateed right to trial by jury in criminal cases.

Which is how it should be. No special treatment for people. In Sweden, everyone should be equal before the law. They should be sentenced after our laws and standards, not yours. If we start having different standards for people depending on where they come from, that opens up for a lot of exploitation.

[PC2]

Which is how it should be. No special treatment for people. In Sweden, everyone should be equal before the law. They should be sentenced after our laws and standards, not yours.

A greater number of people making decisions is going to increase the chance of special treatment? Usually special treatment arises from consolidated power.

[Crispin]

NATO better fucking stay out of Finland.

Well there's a NATO excercise in June, which also involves US troops on Finland soil afaik.

[Deleted]

A greater number of people making decisions is going to increase the chance of special treatment? Usually special treatment arises from consolidated power.

Unlike a jury, our system relies on people educated within the law largely instead of random people in society.

[PC2]

Unlike a jury, our system relies on people educated within the law largely instead of random people in society.

Right, that argument is okay. However educated people with more centralized power can just as (or much more) easily use it to give special treatment.

[Deleted]

Which is how it should be. No special treatment for people. In Sweden, everyone should be equal before the law. They should be sentenced after our laws and standards, not yours. If we start having different standards for people depending on where they come from, that opens up for a lot of exploitation.

They'd be lucky to get a Swedish trial instead of an American, we are much more lenient when it comes to sentencing. As long as there is due process and justice i don't really care either way.

[Deleted]

Right, that argument is okay. However educated people with more centralized power can just as (or more) easily use it to give special treatment.

Juries are easier to sway/influence than those who are working as judges and are educated within the law, they are more susceptible to emotional arguments than those educated within the law since they're just an average citizen and not a professional who have to look past emotions.

[PC2]

Juries are easier to sway/influence than those who are working as judges and are educated within the law, they are more susceptible to emotional arguments than those educated within the law since they're just an average citizen and not a professional who have to look past emotions.

I don't know if that is true but if it is that sounds good, I want a system based more on logic, less on emotion.

[Puupi]

Yeah. I mean, I'd rather be sentenced for rape in Sweden than in the US.

I'd rather not be sentenced for rape anywhere.