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  1. #1
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Captain America, the first paladin

    OK that was a play on words ("Captain America the First Avenger"), but is there any doubt he's a paladin? Avengers Shield has to have been inspired by him. He may not talk about the light, but has there ever been a hero more virtuous? More straight and true?

    (Sitting in theater waiting to finally see latest movie)

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  2. #2
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Yes, Iron Man. But you will find out in the next two hours.
    Nothing virtuous, straight and true about aiding a terrorist and murderer.
    That's modern writing for you. All characters must be flawed, preferably in stupid ways so as to make for more "drama", and pre-current-year ones must act and behave is if they've grown up in the current year and not 60+ years ago.

  3. #3
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I think so.
    A quick Google didn't find any other mention of shield-throwing heroes.

    Have fun! And click this only after you've seen the movie.
    Yes, Iron Man. But you will find out in the next two hours.
    Nothing virtuous, straight and true about aiding a terrorist and murderer.
    Sure there is, if you know the back story. This "terrorist" was mind-controlled/brain-washed to commit those crimes. Before he was captured and brain-washed, he was an absolute war-hero. He was also Steve Rogers' best friend as a child, the one who looked out for him after his parents died, especially when bullies were picking on the nerd that he grew up as. If a member of your raid team gets mind-controlled and attacks you, do you kick him off the raid team?

    I would say Iron Man has a LOT of soul-searching to do, to let grief over his parents goad him into continuing to attack someone who was a fellow victim.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  4. #4
    Titan Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Steve stood up for his friend who was in trouble, even though it meant the whole world turning on him.

    That's straight up paladin material right there.
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  5. #5
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallahadd View Post
    Steve stood up for his friend who was in trouble, even though it meant the whole world turning on him.
    Not seen the movie yet*, but wasn't he standing up for the man who was his friend :P ?

    You know, before all the Hydra brainwashing and stuff. I mean, maybe the Winter Soldier ends up a good guy (again, I don't know), but Captain America is being very naive to risk the lives of so many others by trusting the Winter Soldier.

    *I don't mind spoilers, but others might.

    = + =

    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    This "terrorist" was mind-controlled/brain-washed to commit those crimes.
    It might not have been the "real" him doing it, but he (well, his body if you want to be pedantic) was still a terrorist/assassin/what-have-you.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    Before he was captured and brain-washed, he was an absolute war-hero.
    Meh. He's a regular soldier when captured by Hydra, and then joins Captain America's little band of elites, quite possibly due to his personal connection to Captain America. By all means praise him as a good soldier, with all the courage and other martial virtues that implies, but don't cheapen "absolute war hero" that way, because honestly I don't think he did anything really exceptional: he shot well and he knew a superhero. He was no Horatio Nelson, or Major Tommy Macpherson, or Colonel David Stirling, to pick just a trio of my own countrymen.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    If a member of your raid team gets mind-controlled and attacks you, do you kick him off the raid team?
    If a raid member gets mind controlled, you CC/kill them. Or wipe, because it's one of those fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    I would say Iron Man has a LOT of soul-searching to do, to let grief over his parents goad him into continuing to attack someone who was a fellow victim.
    "Oh the poor victim. Look, he just killed some more good guys, how terrible it must be for him..."

    :P

    Realistic characters shouldn't be aware that they're operating under movie laws: if a guy has been brainwashed into being a killing machine for the bad guys, your first priority is to make sure he can't do any more harm, because your job is to protect the innocent, the civilians, and so on. Risking their lives and livelihoods on the chance that the evil brainwashed killing machine can be redeemed is totally irresponsible and ethically very dubious indeed.

    From what I've seen/heard, Iron Man's problem is naively supporting the idea of a UN superhero oversight agency or w/e it was. Because trusting the Avengers to a group that (a) canonically decided to just nuke New York when the aliens invaded, and (b) IRL has such paragons of virtue as Libya or Saudi Arabia on the human rights council... yeah.

  6. #6
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    Not seen the movie yet*, but wasn't he standing up for the man who was his friend :P ?

    You know, before all the Hydra brainwashing and stuff. I mean, maybe the Winter Soldier ends up a good guy (again, I don't know), but Captain America is being very naive to risk the lives of so many others by trusting the Winter Soldier.

    *I don't mind spoilers, but others might.

    = + =


    It might not have been the "real" him doing it, but he (well, his body if you want to be pedantic) was still a terrorist/assassin/what-have-you.


    Meh. He's a regular soldier when captured by Hydra, and then joins Captain America's little band of elites, quite possibly due to his personal connection to Captain America. By all means praise him as a good soldier, with all the courage and other martial virtues that implies, but don't cheapen "absolute war hero" that way, because honestly I don't think he did anything really exceptional: he shot well and he knew a superhero. He was no Horatio Nelson, or Major Tommy Macpherson, or Colonel David Stirling, to pick just a trio of my own countrymen.


    If a raid member gets mind controlled, you CC/kill them. Or wipe, because it's one of those fights.


    "Oh the poor victim. Look, he just killed some more good guys, how terrible it must be for him..."

    :P

    Realistic characters shouldn't be aware that they're operating under movie laws: if a guy has been brainwashed into being a killing machine for the bad guys, your first priority is to make sure he can't do any more harm, because your job is to protect the innocent, the civilians, and so on. Risking their lives and livelihoods on the chance that the evil brainwashed killing machine can be redeemed is totally irresponsible and ethically very dubious indeed.

    From what I've seen/heard, Iron Man's problem is naively supporting the idea of a UN superhero oversight agency or w/e it was. Because trusting the Avengers to a group that (a) canonically decided to just nuke New York when the aliens invaded, and (b) IRL has such paragons of virtue as Libya or Saudi Arabia on the human rights council... yeah.
    Iron Man is a good guy, and Cap tells him as much at the end of the movie. But he has serious guilt issues that cloud his judgment at times. He usually ends up doing the right thing, but frequently takes a while to come around to it. This is from his character inception, not just for this movie.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  7. #7
    Cap maybe a PROT pala.
    While Retribution is definitely Batman

  8. #8
    I always said a paladin in WoW felt like a mix of Captain America and Thor. How many hammers do we throw made out of Light? Or Lightning. They both basically do the same thing. Cause shit to go on fire when it hits them.

  9. #9
    And yet Capt. America is an agent of hydra. Real paladin material.

  10. #10
    There's little doubt Avenger's Shield was inspired by (and named in honour of) Captain America. Before the MCU existed
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  11. #11
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gref View Post
    And yet Capt. America is an agent of hydra. Real paladin material.
    I dunno... how many times can you retell the same superhero stories before even comic book fans have had enough?

    This way, they get to (a) do something new, and (b) engage in some left-wing America-bashing virtue-signalling... it's a win-win for them :P .

  12. #12
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    If there was any doubt remaining, look at the first row talents for Legion: http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=203776/first-avenger

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  13. #13
    Paladins are Metzen's/Blizz love letter to Marvel. Thors Hammer, Caps Shield and Iron Mans hand beam blast/Holy Prism =D https://youtu.be/Nx2mhPEr7kA?t=132

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    That's modern writing for you. All characters must be flawed, preferably in stupid ways so as to make for more "drama", and pre-current-year ones must act and behave is if they've grown up in the current year and not 60+ years ago.
    Character flaws are important because characters without them are both unrealistic and incredibly uninteresting. Superman is a pretty prime example of this. DC has been spending decades trying to make him interesting. Heck, the de-powered version of him in the New 52 (despite the flaws it still has) is at least more interesting than no-flaw superman.

  15. #15
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armakus View Post
    Character flaws are important because characters without them are both unrealistic and incredibly uninteresting.
    Not really. Character flaws (that is, flaws that affect the character's behaviour, not ones they always overcome) make it easier to to be lazy and easier to write drama etc, but some people really are just awesome and with few (if any) character defects IRL.

    What it does do in terms of the adventures they get into is force the writer to be stricter with how they treat the character. If a character is morally incorruptible then whilst they might be tempted by [insert immoral thing here], they won't give in. They also probably won't sacrifice their moral code: this is right and this is wrong and damn the consequences.

    Let's use the example of non-Hydra-agent Captain America, but without any other superheroes: he's basically morally incorruptible, and at the physical peak of humanity. So him versus random crooks won't be much of a story. But him versus a serious, organised and well-resourced criminal enterprise, or him versus corruption on Capitol Hill, or in WW2 when things like snipers, artillery & tank shells exist (ie he can die)... well I put it to you that he can still have very exciting adventures. Instead of cheap "ZOMG HE R SUPA SIKRIT HYDRA SPY!!!1!" lazy-writer "drama", you just have to give him well written challenges.

  16. #16
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    Well he "was" once the Lawful Good Type. He isn't anymore. But he is still very close to a Paladin-Like-Character.

    Ignoring the whole Hydra thing currently ofc.

    But that's probably why I like the Lawful Good/Neutral Archetype like Captain America or Judge Dredd.

    Yes, I am that guy. I don't care. :P
    Last edited by mmoc8d59f12786; 2016-06-04 at 01:00 AM.

  17. #17
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vjnzen View Post
    Well he "was" once the Lawful Good Type. He isn't anymore. But he is still very close to a Paladin-Like-Character.

    Ignoring the whole Hydra thing currently ofc.

    But that's probably why I like the Lawful Good/Neutral Archetype like Captain America or Judge Dredd.

    Yes, I am that guy. I don't care. :P
    Seems only natural to me that he would be less trusting of authority after Hydra infiltrated Shield. He's kind of like me now - supports the troops but distrusts the politicians.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

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  19. #19
    Spider-man is generally viewed as the prime example of morally pure-hearted lawful good in the marvel universe, but yeah, Captain America is about as close to paladins as super heroes get.

  20. #20
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellhowl View Post
    Spider-man is generally viewed as the prime example of morally pure-hearted lawful good in the marvel universe, but yeah, Captain America is about as close to paladins as super heroes get.
    I dunno, Spiderman has all that emo stuff and wise-cracking as well, which I don't tend to associate with paladins.

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