How can people possibly be so bad?

[kamuimac]

And you're right, Archimonde isn't hard. Neither was Garrosh, but people fucked it up right up til WoD was released (and they STILL die to his smash in the vision phase).

both of those fight were "easy" when you were overgearing the f... out of them or doin them with people who were able to pull numbers to power through mechanics - majority of pugs dont pull those numbers so you are doin fight how it is supposed to be done which makes it 10 times harder.

[Taeldorian]

Because you're pugging. There's a group of people who join in, hoping for a one shot on the backs of everyone else, or just flat out don't know the mechanics and don't care to know. People are their absolute worst in pugs.

And you're right, Archimonde isn't hard. Neither was Garrosh, but people fucked it up right up til WoD was released (and they STILL die to his smash in the vision phase).

Yeah, in pugs people are just looking for an easy "skip phases by burning boss" group even if they aren't the one putting out 60k+ dps. I'm perfectly content with a normal/heroic progression guild which is what my guild is right now but they wanna push for mythics in Legion which I'm down to do. Every pug I enter has people pulling 29k or below which is shit for heroic and then leaving after because the group didn't one shot. I've also seen people who are 730 Ilvl doing worse dps then people 715 or 710 Ilvl. Nobody really wants to put in the effort when they're in a pug. Everyone just wants a quick run. Some people have even started putting "dont join the group if you expect a 1 shot, we are not a 1 shot group" in the description when they're recruiting from the premade group finder.

[kamuimac]

In one PuG I was in yesterday, a Hunter died to Shadowfel Burst and not enough people soaked him. We had a Rogue say the usual: "You're bad if you don't use Deterr to soak that" and declared that we shouldn't be soaking the Shadowfel Bursts if they're affecting Hunters or Mages or other classes that can solo soak. Now maybe in an organised guild run that makes sense. You have voice chat, you can call out which bursts to soak and which ones to ignore. But this was a PuG - quite a large one at that with around 25 players. If 3 players get Shadowfel Burst, I'm not gonna waste time wondering if it was a Hunter or trying to figure out which one is the Hunter. It's just safer to soak all of them. It's not about whether it's a Hunter or a Mage, but what if it's a Shaman or a Druid? They cannot solo soak.

the problem comes though when instead 1 players who "im to good to use personal cd cause others can do all the job for me" you end up with 10 of them all of who think "meh somebody other can take care of it i can just tunnel dps" - this is where a lot of wipes happen cause people think they are too good to deal with mechanics cause in their guild they didnt bother with them for months. and your example is prime example of that - hunter was probably tunneling to maximize burst dps so for him using deterance was dps drop so "f... mechanics ill tunnel others will take care of it cause my dps is more important then dps of 10 other dpses" .

[Idoru]

I don't think that's a problem. You might think some people are good because you think relative to yourself. Some people take a more objective approach and consider absolutes rather than their own relative capability. You can get this perspective by looking at the data (logs, meters, etc).

To say someone is bad because their performance is objectively very poor is not a personal attack. It's a statement of fact.

For instance, when you're looking to get your car fixed, do you want someone who can just barely perform mechanical fixes on a car, who does it more slowly than 90% of mechanics, and is more likely to make major errors? When you're looking to hire someone to deal with your finances or taxes, are you more interested in someone who is in the bottom 10% of their work, or someone in the top 10%?

Raiding in WoW is a hobby. Nobody can or will ever try to stop you from engaging in that as your hobby, but there are objective measures to someone's ability to do this hobby, and there are some activities that generally require a higher than average capability. Pugging is one of those things, because pugs tend not to have good coordination or a strong team ethic established over years. Everyone is basically doing their own thing, and in order for that to work, everyone actually needs to be better than they would need to be if it was a group that was working well together as a team, especially if those people don't have experience with the content. Similarly, if your goal is to 1-shot every boss and have 0 risk of ever wiping, you need an even higher level of play or experience.

When people with that same hobby look to do something in that hobby that objectively only like 40% of people can actually pull off, it's not unexpected to see people complaining about the fact that 60% of people are basically useless for this purpose, especially if those people don't filter themselves out. Imagine if I asked for help carrying a really heavy thing up 10 flights of stairs. Do you think it'd be awkward if some 12 year old girl showed up and offered to help carry something that weighs 5x her body weight up 10 flights of stairs? That's a bit like what we see in WoW raiding, hence this thread.

It's a problem when you apply them to random people in a pug, then jump on the forums and complain when people don't live up to them.

You have the right to refuse the help of that 12 year old because she's (obviously) not up for the task, but the OP actually accepted her offer then complains because she's not able to get up the first flight of stairs.

[BiggestNoob]

It's a problem when you apply them to random people in a pug, then jump on the forums and complain when people don't live up to them.

You have the right to refuse the help of that 12 year old because she's (obviously) not up for the task, but the OP actually accepted her offer then complains because she's not able to get up the first flight of stairs.

The fundamental problem is that we have no good way of determining if people who show up are actually capable. On top of that, lots of people are against implementing any kind of functionality that would allow us to determine this since it means those 12 year old girls who can't carry 300lb objects up stairs can't show up and get carried through the task because there's a reward at the end that they want. They'd be rightly detected and rejected via screening.

We had a trivial implementation of this in WoD for heroic dungeons: silver PG. It's a trivial thing to do, and all it does is guarantee that someone can press like 3 buttons even once every 3-4 GCDs. It doesn't guarantee the ability to perform in a raid environment, but it was a step in the right direction. Instead of extending that idea into something more comprehensive, and improving LFG by gathering stats on players and letting us make more informed decisions to build more successful groups (and thus to massively improve the quality of raiding in pugs), they removed it altogether and abandoned the idea, to the great joy of the 12 year old girls who want to be carried up the stairs on top of heavy objects they could never dream of lifting.

[Summer]

The basic problem is that Archimonde on heroic, if you don't overgear it, is actually quite a hard boss. There weren't many guilds that killed it during week one and I fully well remember spending a couple of night there wiping - this with the guild, mostly keeping the same players for each attempt, and all of us on voice comms. Is it really a surprise that this boss is difficult for pugs that can't keep the same people for two attempts, much less two raid nights? When done with lower ilvl gear there's several mechanics that can wipe the raid if done without coordination (Chains, Nether Banishes, separating the Infernals). This is easy to forget now but think back to when you first faced him :P

When I started raiding in Wrath there were pug groups forming in chat on a daily basis. A good player with some server rep could easily get into a group on a less geared alt. Now this doesn't happen because we're all strangers on the LFD and so ilvl and achis dictate. Because of the many cheat addons I guess a mythic achi rings false to some.

[Idoru]

The fundamental problem is that we have no good way of determining if people who show up are actually capable. On top of that, lots of people are against implementing any kind of functionality that would allow us to determine this since it means those 12 year old girls who can't carry 300lb objects up stairs can't show up and get carried through the task because there's a reward at the end that they want. They'd be rightly detected and rejected via screening.

We had a trivial implementation of this in WoD for heroic dungeons: silver PG. It's a trivial thing to do, and all it does is guarantee that someone can press like 3 buttons even once every 3-4 GCDs. It doesn't guarantee the ability to perform in a raid environment, but it was a step in the right direction. Instead of extending that idea into something more comprehensive, and improving LFG by gathering stats on players and letting us make more informed decisions to build more successful groups (and thus to massively improve the quality of raiding in pugs), they removed it altogether and abandoned the idea, to the great joy of the 12 year old girls who want to be carried up the stairs on top of heavy objects they could never dream of lifting.

If you only want to play with people who are up to your standards then play with people you know.

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

back in wrath, stormrage used to have great pugs. Like easily get shit done pugs. I bailed on cata early on, and i had a team for mop and early wod. I pugged all of hellfire because we called it quits like a day before HFC dropped. the best way to find a successful group is to find one that is at least half guild members half pug. full on pugs wipe to the second boss.

i dont know what changed, good players left? maybe the wrath puggers were left over from vanilla and BC days and have since departed.

[PaladinBash]

People are so fucking bad, it's fucking pathetic. I can now see why people pay me tens of thousands of gold to carry them repeatedly through H Arch just so they don't have to be involved in the sort of business I have regrettably involved myself in this week.

I would rather pay someone to carry me than ever deal with a single night of this garbage. Since my guild finished raiding, I often consider raiding on an alt but this reality puts a chill up my spine every time I think about it. Thankyou OP for keeping me from this fruitless endeavour.

[tj119]

Look at the game from level 1-100. From the very beginning it is all faceroll content a small child could comprehend and overcome. My 6 and 11 year olds raid normal-heroic content...

There's no desire or reason for players to get better, especially when so much in this game is fed to you from a silver spoon.

[BiggestNoob]

If you only want to play with people who are up to your standards then play with people you know.

That really has nothing to do with pugging. The point is that pugs do suck and will always suck so long as the game is completely open to every terrible player who can barely handle doing solo content where you 1-shot mobs without providing some means to filter players for those capable of actually doing the content.

[Fynzie]

The fact that not even a single mechanic of the game is explained throughout the 100 levels make it impossible for newcomers to play properly. In World of Warcraft the game doesn't teach you how to play, people on the Internet do

[Spiral Mage]

The funny part is, many of the people who you're talking about would be writing posts on how shit your item level is or what a bad player you are. You're fucking awful, etc.

It all boils down to one thing my friend responds with, every time I ask your question:
"People are fucking idiots."

That one quote explains -every- single thing you asked.

The worst part is that the LFD is so toxic, that I don't even bother trying to PUG. I don't want to deal with the same baddies you're describing and it isn't even the fact that they're bad at the game, it's that said baddie is LEADING THE GROUP .. while standing in every AOE, ignoring mechanics entirely -- and then .. it isn't enough that he tunnels the boss ALL FIGHT LONG ..

He does ...... horrible ... DPS .. just fucking awful .. the Disc Priest almost out DPSs him. But HE'S raging after every wipe, kicking people, calling them noobs, screaming that they don't know the fight and they should fucking watch a video .. when it's so painfully obvious he is the most clueless fuck in the group.

That's what really gets me. He's bad, and arrogant as all hell, and blaming EVERYONE else for the wipe but himself.

Seeing that over and over, has massacred my urge to try raiding at all anymore. It's just a fucking game, CHILL. I get that we need to do the fight correctly, but hell, if you don't know the fight, don't be ragin' at the rest of the group for it either.

[chooi]

Yeah, in pugs people are just looking for an easy "skip phases by burning boss" group even if they aren't the one putting out 60k+ dps. I'm perfectly content with a normal/heroic progression guild which is what my guild is right now but they wanna push for mythics in Legion which I'm down to do. Every pug I enter has people pulling 29k or below which is shit for heroic and then leaving after because the group didn't one shot. I've also seen people who are 730 Ilvl doing worse dps then people 715 or 710 Ilvl. Nobody really wants to put in the effort when they're in a pug. Everyone just wants a quick run. Some people have even started putting "dont join the group if you expect a 1 shot, we are not a 1 shot group" in the description when they're recruiting from the premade group finder.

I know it's true but I don't understand the logic of these players. If you want a quick run why not give your best so you're done with it quickly? Why are there so many players that think they can play like lazy asses and get carried from others to get through bosses fast? It just doesn't make any sense. It's like purposefully choosing the longer route when you could just drive the direct route on the highway in a lot less time.

IMO the problem is that a lot of players are just bad at this game and there is nothing that's gonna change that. And even worse, they are just ignorant about their own awful performance and can't or don't want to improve themselves. They rather blame everyone else to hide their own incompetence and ignorance.

Conclusion: avoid PuGs to not waste your precious time.

[Deleted]

we have no good way of determining if people who show up are actually capable.

We do have a good enough method for heroic. Check logs, or only check armory, and make reasonable assumptions based on what you see. People usually go only by ilevel and that's fundamentally wrong because players are often badly itemized, or they might had been carried in the past and that can be easily determined or assumed with reasonable possibility by checking their armory.

[Deleted]

A lot of those problems are caused because people are looking only at the ilevel and not anything else. ilevel means very little. It means very little especially when that high ilevel comes without an echievement or only a single kill (which might imply a boost) or it comes with very bad decisions in gearing, all red flags for inviting.

Yeh, we're in a situation where 695 ilvl guy with 4-set (basically full normal HFC without valor upgrades) does much better than 710 ilvl composed of random baleful and conquest gear. That doesn't prevent leaders from judging purely by ilvl tho. I've seen plenty of people with Mark of Supreme Fucking Doom ffs. Okay to cheat your way into a group with it, not okay to not unequip it once you are in the group :/

[desert-wind]

I've been attempting to pug a successful Heroic Archimonde about 10 times this week on my 714 Resto Druid. Obviously, not one of these groups have succeeded and, within them, I have encounter well over 100 unique players. I have outhealed numerous other classes with far superior ilvl to mine as well as with full set bonuses, I have been turned down from a number of pugs because my ilvl is "too shitty" or I'm "lying about my Mythic Archimonde achievement", I have seen a number of different strategies implemented. Nothing. It doesn't matter. I watch raid leaders fill the raid with 720+ players and the fucking Infernals don't die, people take 5+ stacks of Doomfire, people don't kill the Living Shadows, people don't use their abilities correctly, some people never break shackles, some people break them all at the same time despite weak healing. It's a fucking nightmare.

People are so fucking bad, it's fucking pathetic. I can now see why people pay me tens of thousands of gold to carry them repeatedly through H Arch just so they don't have to be involved in the sort of business I have regrettably involved myself in this week.

He's not even that hard of a boss.

Let me ask you...

Did you Bear form > taunt > stun an infernal?

Did you ursol's or typhoon the shadow beasts?

Did you pad all your healing to "outheal numerous other classes with far superior ilvl" instead of saving your mana / cds for when it is truly needed?

Did you suggest not lusting phase 1 as it's needless and probably what the pug group was doing?

Did you even suggest to the players there what wasn't working in order to improve it?

Did you even talk to anyone???

Or did you just whine that everyone is so bad?

Do everything you can do first then start worrying about other people.

[Deleted]

Its the same thing i saw at SoO what you just described and why i decided "I will just raid 4-6 hours a week instead of trying 30 hours a week with randoms".

It takes longer usually..around a couple/few weeks longer than with desperately trying to get a good group..but i am much calmer.

This is what I don't get. I understand people running these PuGs on alts, but on a main why not just join a guild. There's like zero commitment required to do this. There are so many guilds that raid one day a week, and the flexible nature of normal/heroic means that you can just pick a guild that raids on a night that you can mostly make and, if a few times you can't or even just don't feel like it, they go without you. It's a much more pleasant experience, surely to goodness, and far more reliable.

[Deleted]

You would think after 1 year People got a clue by now. But No My sugestion is to create the raid yourself. Get a bunch of guild mates and req. Myth progression from upper hfc

[Bryntrollian]

I'm aware. It's just sad to me that, even after linking Mythic Archimonde I got last year, people are still not convinced that I am the alt of a competent player. This kind of shit happens during every content drought and it really upsets me. People's expectations get out of control and it negatively impacts people who actually need to do content, and I'm not talking about myself here. The average Joe of WoW can't be "730+ w/ max Legendary ring" and realistically still want to do H Arch. It's absurd.

Why would they pick a 714 with a few achievements over the 730+ people with the same achievements?