Content in MMOs.

[VXFadhel]

While jumping around threads and playing around in many MMOs, you start to notice a trend in MMOs about "End-Game" content. Apparently, some people starting to focus solely on reaching max level to get to said "end-game" content. Some even feel burnt out or disappointed in some MMOs due to lack of. However, said people are approaching some MMOs wrong. Not all MMOs are about reaching max level.

Seems that most starting to forget that it is about having fun, not reaching max level. Thou I understand that due to some massive success in some games (Mostly WoW), reaching max level is getting the focus of developers. WoW didn't really start that way even, but now it became streamed as such. People just compete on reaching max level so they can raid.

What made me remember said mentality is that I was in TESO and someone mentioned something like that (Was there cause Main theme is awesome...). As I remember in my journey. Someone was telling me that I should watch some youtubers and read to get the best path for leveling. To reach max level fast, because that is when the game really start. That is where the end-game content starts as he called.

Now, content is there all over the place; Yet we (and I don't mean all) don't take time to appreciate it. TSW and ESO is some games that the journey starts when you start playing not when you reach max level. GW2 was the same but I am not sure how it is now. I remember ArenaNet saying something about people getting confused about leveling. Content shouldn't be tied to leveling mostly, but distributed all over the place whether you want to focus on PvP or PvE. You can still group in said games, and do content. So it is not like the main focus on these games are solo or something.

So what do you think about content in MMOs? Does the mentality of people changed too much that it became like that? Are we different type of gamers that Max level is that important that developers should focus on that kind of content? Have some games that tried different approach to MMOs? Share your thoughts.

[I Push Buttons]

Because max level content is all that matters... Whether you are hardcore and get to max level in two days of straight play or super casual and get to max level over several weeks... Eventually everyone who doesn't quit the game will be max level and endgame/max level content is all there is at that point... Its all there will be for months, years even, if they don't raise the level cap.

[Pull My Finger]

Yeah, it's funny that people have adopted this "endgame is where the game actually begins" when in fact, when you think about it historically, "endgame" content was an attempt to prolongue the progression of the game at a point where it had reached its completion. It completely shifted from endgame being something that attempts to prolongate the game, to something you're supposed to work your way through in order to get to the game. You can even see it in the wording - when people talk about the "leveling phase". It's just a "phase", something transitional. It's not really where it's "at", it's nothing that "matters". It's a totally backwards way of thinking, and I think that a game like WoW stuck to it for too long because the players seemed to be comfortable with it for quite a while.

I think the more the players' mentality gravitates towards performance and competition (PvP, progression races, topping meters, topping ilvl, etc.), the more they lose sense for the game in its entirety.

I would actually much more prefer a game that doesn't really settle in a densely tiered, bracketed endgame. I wouldn't mind continuously leveling troughout content patches, for example. Like, you hit max level 50 at the end of the initial game. When patch 1.1 hits, the cap gets increased by 5 levels, etc. And so on. Additional systems like the whole artefact thing could tie in very nicely with that. I even wouldn't mind gating of zones - with places you can't enter yet, but will be able eventually, throughout the expansion. And that would obviously be something that could be tied in with lore and questing content.

Would also feel much more like a continuous world. One of the cool things about the really great classic adventuring games, like Zelda, or more recently Dark Souls, is this sense of scope and wonder that you get from seeing things in the distance, or regularly passing areas or buildings, but not being able to enter them. You always wonder: what's inside that tower? Ist there any way to open that big ol' gate over there? How do you kill that one goon that doesn't let you pass? If Iwas somehow able to cross that gulch, walk through the waterfall or surive that one long drop down, what would I discover on the other side?

It's a very different cosciousness than "hey, a new island magically appeared as of today". You're being aware of stuff for a long time, and eventually, you finally find that missing key, unravel a secret passage or gain a new ability with which you can trespass what was previously off limits. And once you do, the game suddenly organically grows in your mind. Stuff like that could be connected to really cool, long quest chains that could involve outdoor zones as well as dungeons, perhaps spanning over multiple content patches.

[VXFadhel]

Interesting thoughts @Pull My Finger . True that exploring in games you mentioned feels continuous. Having horizontal progress also helps. I know that I was turned off in some games due to game not being interesting in leveling "phase". Quests that takes you over the place (not just for the sake of it) is nice when it gives you a hints so you can put things together. I remember a quest in WoW:Cataclysm I think. Bad lands I think, about 3 guys or something telling you the story of how it was when death wing came or something. It is not a serious quest, and it isn't really max level quest. But it is cool, thou if you asked me about quests in high level places. I would say some dragons or something. Paladin horse quest had a purpose at least to say.
@I Push Buttons :well such mentality also bred the "instant level ##" services and so on. Would it help to remove leveling or make it less impactful so they start making content to do whenever you want (Like Soul games)?

[PACOX]

"Must get to max level ARGGGH" mentality is heavily propetuated by the success of WoW where you always had to been at max level and/or within the current ilvl range to do new content. After an expac launches, thats pretty much besides raids so you better keep up. Doesn't help that leveling is pretty dead in WoW.

Many MMOs out there don't require to be max level or have the best gear hav a good time. Some have really good leveling experiences, SWTOR. Some use levels loosely, TSW. GW2 was pretty flat (you mostly did the same stuff at max level that you did while leveling) for most of its run, BDO is the new thing and is akin to sandbox mmos where fighting monsters isn't even the main focus.

I think MMO games should try to build their own niches and stop trying to (intentionally/not on merit) steal players from other games. People will come if they like your product.

[VXFadhel]

The problem is most developers usually spend their time on making max level content. Sure it is hard, to go back after going through all these years on such thing. Like what Blizzard can do is after expansion all their raids require the same amount of iLvl and doesn't give higher ilvl (of course that is not really practical due to other reasons) so people just focus on playing whatever raid they feel they want to do. That doesn't solve the problem but it helps.

Now as I said, I noticed that many approach some MMOs the same way they approach WoW (as well as many others). They have to get to max level to enjoy "end game" content, even thou the content is all over. I am not talking about these MMOs where there is nothing to do but farm to the next level until you can do next content.
I haven't play BDO yet, but you are right about using levels loosely in TSW. Now I know it is hard for some not to have gear treadmills and leveling, since it has been fed to them for years (Biggest is WoW).

[May90]

I don't see the point of "MMO" part in modern "MMO"s, to be honest. What is the point of those open worlds, if players just rush through them in a couple of days to get the max level and do instances afterwards?

[VXFadhel]

I don't see the point of "MMO" part in modern "MMO"s, to be honest. What is the point of those open worlds, if players just rush through them in a couple of days to get the max level and do instances afterwards?

Some MMOs takes different approach to things, which is why some are confused when playing some of these MMO. All the content and beautiful worlds are thrown out (in their view) but in that mindset. Max level is the goal and the end. Usually in single player games, people take their time to enjoy the world and do stuff around. Yet, in MMOs, most wouldn't think to do that (that some games are said to be bad cause of it, when developers take their time to put content all around). You should start having fun as you are playing not when you reach max level.

[May90]

Some MMOs takes different approach to things, which is why some are confused when playing some of these MMO. All the content and beautiful worlds are thrown out (in their view) but in that mindset. Max level is the goal and the end. Usually in single player games, people take their time to enjoy the world and do stuff around. Yet, in MMOs, most wouldn't think to do that (that some games are said to be bad cause of it, when developers take their time to put content all around). You should start having fun as you are playing not when you reach max level.

Guild Wars 2 is probably the only modern MMO I've tried (granted, I haven't tried many) that gave me this feeling, and I've heard ESO is like that too. I liked it how in GW2 you could go anywhere in the world and do content there which stays relevant for you, no matter what level you are (as long as you are not way below the expected level for that area), and how the main story had you go to various spots all around the world - sometimes reminiscent of how it is in Morrowind, which I'm playing currently.

I just wish more games utilized that approach.

[VXFadhel]

Guild Wars 2 is probably the only modern MMO I've tried (granted, I haven't tried many) that gave me this feeling, and I've heard ESO is like that too. I liked it how in GW2 you could go anywhere in the world and do content there which stays relevant for you, no matter what level you are (as long as you are not way below the expected level for that area), and how the main story had you go to various spots all around the world - sometimes reminiscent of how it is in Morrowind, which I'm playing currently.

I just wish more games utilized that approach.

Mhm, it is fun mostly. Thou, easier for some to follow the formula, especially since most are used to it by now. Throw gear in, dungeons and all that. Put costumes, dye them different color or give the choice to dye them. I have nothing against costumes thou, some are cools and others are just there to milk the player while keeping you playing. Sadly, being milked is a trend these days.