The problem with left vs right on mmo regarding refugees

[bufferunderrun]

Currently migrant use 3 main routes to try and enter: Turkey-Greece, Italy-Libya, Spain-Morocco; the first is used mainly by syrian refugee mixed with migrant from pakistan, afganistan, yemen and some other south asian countries, the second is mainly used by libyans, egyptians, a mix of south saharian migrants, and the last mainly from maroccans and other west african countries.
Most of those migrants don't want to stay in Greece, Italy or Spain because those countries don't offer big benefits they try to reach the north europe, Germany, Scandinavian countries and UK, both because the benefits there are to good and because relatives already live there (and are usually the one who send the money for the smuggling through money transfers).
The problem with the left is that they consider everyone included those who come from relatively stable countries like Morocco or Egypt or Pakistan refugee thus no one could be returned to it's own country.
The right is dumb has well because from one side they don't want to accept anyone but they also don't want to commit into a real foreign polices to prevent those peoples to come.
Europe is basically stuck into doing nothing, we don't put any pressure on the north african countries to prevent the smuggle, we don't do anything for the south saharian countries, we are letting russian and american do what they please in syria and generally try to avoid any problem until shit hit the fan.

[Deleted]

All I know is that when shit really hits the fan either by immense amount of suicide attacks or immensely increased violence by the immigrants, extermination camps will be back. If not by governments, then by people themselves.

[Forogil]

People will say 'but muh international law' but countries have a right to properly vet each refugee applicant into a country no matter how many there may be. Hence why what is happening now is the worse possible solution because there is too many in total and too many that are potentially not genuine refugee's to properly vet before allowing into the country.

Additionally there is no obligation to allow people to enter your country, and there is no strong obligation to help outside your country.

Thus the solution consistent with international law is to build fences and block refugees from entering - or have some other country build the fence, since you can then pride yourself of "being welcoming", which is as good as having a soup kitchen inside a gated community - and then the gates were breached.
(Of course, the ones who say that we should help closer to the conflicts are not necessarily going to actually do that, and some people are ignorant that there is a fence - and ignorant about the number of asylum-seekers - including their country of origin, and people - regardless of political stance - will often say one thing and do another.)

That's why we got the strange facts that non-accepted refugee-seekers are flown back to their country (in chartered flights) - but the migrants have to face death on the med to reach Europe.

And then we have people who seem to think that 'oh, he paid his life saving and almost drowned on the way to seek fortune in Europe, but was denied asylum - of course he will voluntarily return now'.

And 'international law' and 'human rights' are used so much by various organizations that it reminds me of a story of a boy who cried wolf.
Some publicly decry this 'human rights activism':
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...an-rights.html
http://www.theguardian.com/news/2014...t-human-rights

[Super Kami Dende]

The issue with these topics is it is people arguing points which neither side will ever change their view on.

One of the main problems is when people give LEGITIMATE reasons why mass refugee/immigration is not good they are instantly called "Racists" or "Xenophobes" and "Right Wingers." When many legitimate reasons have nothing to do with being racist or xenophobic or even being right wing.

I lean more Left than Right and when I am critical of Immigration and Refugees I instantly get the "OMFG YOU'RE JUST A RACIST RIGHT WINGER!"

It is hilarious but fucking goddamn stupid at the same time, that talking about things like this on MMO and the internet in general just gets countered with pathetic buzzwords and ad hominem attacks.

The worst part is, there are a certain few extremely "liberal" moderators on MMO-champ that infract and silence people being genuinely critical without being racist or xenophobic simply on the grounds of them having a different opinion.

[Sentynel]

Never seen "leftists" defending mindless immigration in this forum or importing crime for that matter, it's just xenophobic right-wingers percieving everything as immigrant worshipping. Most of what you call leftist do not even self-label as such. The term "leftist" is mostly expressed in attack posts from your usual illiterate right wingers.

And the term "nazi" is mostly expressed in attack posts from your usual illiterate left wingers.

I think we're even now.

[Deleted]

Never seen "leftists" defending mindless immigration in this forum or importing crime for that matter, it's just xenophobic right-wingers percieving everything as immigrant worshipping. Most of what you call leftist do not even self-label as such. The term "leftist" is mostly expressed in attack posts from your usual illiterate right wingers.

Hahaha, we are not reading the same forums then.
Have you seen the EU and South Africa topics? Your "leftist" blame white people regardless of topics and such. When SA passes idiotic laws, its whites fault for being colonialists, when people dont want millions upon millions of unasimilated immigrants in EU its white faults for being racist.

Do you actually know whats a xenophobia?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...77336536_o.jpg

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, ignorant black and white thinking is a problem on both sides on all political issues.

Id say the tint is more towards blackish gray regarding those immigrants.

[Super Kami Dende]

People who are in denial about being racist are pretty funny.

Indeed, just like all the far leftists that are in denial about also being bigots/sexist/racists.

[Super Kami Dende]

Im not going to deny that the left is full of bad people but so is the right.

they both are, each side at their extreme is as bad as each other. Just seems one side gets a free pass and the other side gets called on it.

[Deleted]

This is not a MMO Exclusive phenomen. It's everywhere.
I did not read the whole thread, but I'd like to add my view/experience.

I am from austria, what basically means that if you voice a rather negative opinion about the current situation or foreigners overall - you are called a Nazi.
This isn't even new. While the situation gets worse every week, the faster you are called bigotted etc etc.

Only idiots, deniers and people with no experience in life (long term students etc - yeah, going to universities is free of charge in austria)are who scream and shout the most.
Thy is that you might ask? Well I can't tell for certain, but you can draw a correlation there. Many of those in my experience live in a safety bubble. They don't have to deal with this mess on a daily basis, live in richer areas (where no immigrants obviously are - joke of the day: they [not the immigrants] don't want housing for them [immigrants] near their houses etc) and send their kids to private schools etc pp.

Short: far left people either live in denial, or did not experience enough shit with stuff like this. It's no wonder why right wing parties get more and more voters on their side.

Iwas about to write much more, but I've lost interest because no matter what, people with common sense will still called Nazi here.

DIsh of the day: 14 year old Afghan (at least thats what he told them) attacks 52 year old nurse because of the food. They only pressed charges against him, but did not take him into custody. THATS !! what makes us angry about the situation.
Also: 7 times sex molestor and 1 time attempted rape (on an underage girl) migrant vanished into thin air. WTF
Also: About 1/3 of all migrants in vienna alone took part in criminal actions, study shows. Thats around 20.000. 33 percent of migrants not just got in trouble with the police, they actually broke the law in some sort (mainly sex-, theft/burglary- and drug related crimes). "they don't commit more crimes than the natives" <-- BS

And here something for the "they are no economic migrants"-crowd: Upper austria is about to cut welfare money for asylum seekers by 500 euros to about 340 per month or so. Many of those who are there already want to leave to vienna, where they still get 900 euros per month, free housing, free food, free bus and subway tickets and so forth.

Here it gets personal, I am currently unemployed for a bit (seasonal job). I do get around 900 euros but i have to pay for everything myself. I am not entitled to get anything else, nor do I want to. Worked my whole life since I was 14, and they get more than someone like me? Your retardness has to be as high as Mt. Everest to don't see why people like me are angry.

[Brexitftw]

The Left are EXTREMELY intolerant of other people's views and will silence you at every opportunity, not even allowing you to speak.

The right are quite tolerant, but if you disagree, you'll get smacked in the face for disagreeing.

There's your basic difference between the extreme left and extreme right loonies.

As always, balance is key. Centre left or centre right is always the best way forwards.

Extremists will darwinianism themselves by their sheer stupidity as time goes on.

[Fuck]

The left are gullible idiots that prioritize the welfare of others over their own.

Either way, if the election matters to you- you do not matter.

[Brexitftw]

they both are, each side at their extreme is as bad as each other. Just seems one side gets a free pass and the other side gets called on it.

Because the Left took control of many popular forum boards.

It stems from education where teachers and unions are full of left wing extremists.

It all balances out in the end dont worry.

Ive got a University leaver who is new in my workplace. He came in ranting racist this and xenophobic that.

His shit lasted about a week before he was put in his place.

As soon as these people are de-institutionalised and realise theyve been living in a cacoon, shielded from the real World, they soon change.

And those that dont quickly perish lol

[AwkwardSquirtle]

So basically what I'm asking is can we please in future try to stay on topic and have intelligent discussion about all political issues without ignoring people simply because they don't agree with your pov.

No chance. Not just on this issue, but on any issue ever. That's the nature of the internet unfortunately.

[Deleted]

No it isn't.
Europe faces an influx of refugees.
Refugees are NOT immigrants.
Learn the difference.
There's an exception applicable to a few countries, like Sweden who immediately grant immigration status, but that does not change the overall fact.
A refugee is not an immigrant.

Maybe you need to learn the difference. The people coming in are ASYLUM SEEKERS, who can be from any country in the world. They only become REFUGEES if their asylum applications get accepted in Europe.

All of them can be considered IMMIGRANTS because the definition of the word covers everyone that moves to a different country, regardless of reason.


Taken from Wikipedia, sources include the Oxford Dictionary and the Refugee Council if you're wondering:

Immigration is the international movement of people into a destination country of which they are not natives or where they do not possess citizenship in order to settle or reside there.

[HumbleDuck]

No it isn't.
Europe faces an influx of refugees.
Refugees are NOT immigrants.
Learn the difference.
There's an exception applicable to a few countries, like Sweden who immediately grant immigration status, but that does not change the overall fact.
A refugee is not an immigrant.

Pretty much this. I find people having strong feelings twords issues that they are not even slightly familiar with. It doesn't matter if you are closer to right or left, as far as you can propose an argument based on facts and logical thinking its considered valid in modern world.

[Brexitftw]

Pretty much this. I find people having strong feelings twords issues that they are not even slightly familiar with. It doesn't matter if you are closer to right or left, as far as you can propose an argument based on facts and logical thinking its considered valid in modern world.

Debating semantics on word definitions is a bit of a non factor really.

The subcategory classifications are micro details that can be classified into one broad debate.

Do locals want more people moving in from other countries, or do they not.

The label foreigners are attached to is really beside the point.

[Slant]

What is happening in Europe now is mindless immigration.

I was with you until this post. I'm all for sensible discussion, but when people don't even know what it is they're talking about, I become frustrated and try to educate rather than discuss. And this is the main problem I have on this forum accepting opposing views. It's not that I'm not able to being convinced of a different opinion. It's just that many people on this forum aren't able to form coherent thoughts that don't rely on false premises.

Take your post for example: You're saying "What is happening in Europe now is mindless immigration." and let's just assume you mean that to open up discussion. My problem is that I'd have to immediately stop you in your tracks and tell you "No, it's not immigration at all. It's refugees being given shelter." Unless you acknowledge that immigrants != refugees, we're just going to talk past each other without ever actually talking about the same thing. Now, I realise this, because I know how these issues actually work in the real world, and I'll keep on repeating to you that you're basing your discussion on wrong assumptions and instead of listening to me, REALLY LISTENING to me, you are assuming that I'm somehow stubborn and just contradict you to spite you because you assume it's my political position or some other bullshit...

Do you see now why these discussions look like it's an extreme left vs. extreme right mud slinging contest where people in the middle (me) are really just saying "Yo dude, inform yourself and then come back with actual arguments".

- - - Updated - - -

"Mindless immigration" is what's happening in the sense that folks are moving about without control. So long as we don't agree on anything, mindless it will be.

This is largely untrue at this point. The vast majority has been registered with biometric data (read: fingerprints) by now and their whereabouts are known to the authorities. They are part of the bureaucracy in Europe and while they may disappear for given times, they always have to come back to pick up their allowances. Europe is expensive and if they want to do anything here, they'll come back for money. And that's when you pick them up if you need them for anything, like investigations, deportation or what have you.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe you need to learn the difference. The people coming in are ASYLUM SEEKERS, who can be from any country in the world. They only become REFUGEES if their asylum applications get accepted in Europe.

All of them can be considered IMMIGRANTS because the definition of the word covers everyone that moves to a different country, regardless of reason.


Taken from Wikipedia, sources include the Oxford Dictionary and the Refugee Council if you're wondering:

Dude, if you want to criticise someone's knowledge, you better make sure... 100% certain that you are correct. Otherwise you look like a fool. Being a refugee is a legal status applied to you based on the geneva conventions on refugees. Asylum seeker is a legal status applied to you by the country that you seek asylum in. Immigration is yet another legal status based on different legislation of the country you want to immigrate to. All of those are seperate legislation, seperate statuses and have seperate consequences for the people involved.

All of them are MIGRANTS in the definition that they're moving from A to B. The term literally meaning "mover", nothing else. So the next time you want to bullshit your way through legal definitions and accuse someone of not knowing his stuff, how about you don't? Chances are there are half a dozen people on here who understand the material better than you.

- - - Updated - - -

Debating semantics on word definitions is a bit of a non factor really.

The subcategory classifications are micro details that can be classified into one broad debate.

Do locals want more people moving in from other countries, or do they not.

The label foreigners are attached to is really beside the point.

It's not semantics. In the real world each of the three groups has vastly different consequences for the involved parties and vastly different outcomes once their situation is resolved. And some of them can overlap, a refugee can apply for asylum. An Asylant (successful asylum seeker) can apply for immigration. And guess what, a successful immigrant can eventually even apply for citizenship. That's how it goes. But what I summarized in one sentence here? That can take up to 10 years all in all.

[Brexitftw]

I was with you until this post. I'm all for sensible discussion, but when people don't even know what it is they're talking about, I become frustrated and try to educate rather than discuss. And this is the main problem I have on this forum accepting opposing views. It's not that I'm not able to being convinced of a different opinion. It's just that many people on this forum aren't able to form coherent thoughts that don't rely on false premises.

Take your post for example: You're saying "What is happening in Europe now is mindless immigration." and let's just assume you mean that to open up discussion. My problem is that I'd have to immediately stop you in your tracks and tell you "No, it's not immigration at all. It's refugees being given shelter." Unless you acknowledge that immigrants != refugees, we're just going to talk past each other without ever actually talking about the same thing. Now, I realise this, because I know how these issues actually work in the real world, and I'll keep on repeating to you that you're basing your discussion on wrong assumptions and instead of listening to me, REALLY LISTENING to me, you are assuming that I'm somehow stubborn and just contradict you to spite you because you assume it's my political position or some other bullshit...

Do you see now why these discussions look like it's an extreme left vs. extreme right mud slinging contest where people in the middle (me) are really just saying "Yo dude, inform yourself and then come back with actual arguments".

- - - Updated - - -



This is largely untrue at this point. The vast majority has been registered with biometric data (read: fingerprints) by now and their whereabouts are known to the authorities. They are part of the bureaucracy in Europe and while they may disappear for given times, they always have to come back to pick up their allowances. Europe is expensive and if they want to do anything here, they'll come back for money. And that's when you pick them up if you need them for anything, like investigations, deportation or what have you.

- - - Updated - - -



Dude, if you want to criticise someone's knowledge, you better make sure... 100% certain that you are correct. Otherwise you look like a fool. Being a refugee is a legal status applied to you based on the geneva conventions on refugees. Asylum seeker is a legal status applied to you by the country that you seek asylum in. Immigration is yet another legal status based on different legislation of the country you want to immigrate to. All of those are seperate legislation, seperate statuses and have seperate consequences for the people involved.

All of them are MIGRANTS in the definition that they're moving from A to B. The term literally meaning "mover", nothing else. So the next time you want to bullshit your way through legal definitions and accuse someone of not knowing his stuff, how about you don't? Chances are there are half a dozen people on here who understand the material better than you.

The South East of England hasn't taken many asylum seekers or refugees in the recent crisis.

Yet immigration remains extraordinarily high.

Our public services are stretched to the limit.

I am definately a victim of mindless immigration.

Controlled immigration must happen, or my local area will disintegrate into a worse shit hole than it already is.

[Macaquerie]

The South East of England hasn't taken many asylum seekers or refugees in the recent crisis.

Yet immigration remains extraordinarily high.

Our public services are stretched to the limit.

I am definately a victim of mindless immigration.

Controlled immigration must happen, or my local area will disintegrate into a worse shit hole than it already is.

The gall of these migrants, to show up uninvited into someone else's country, disrespect local customs and culture, and go around acting like they own the damn place.

[Paklaaji]

Europe is taking in immigrants, not refugees. The moment they leave their camps in Turkey and Lebanon in which they`re safe - they become migrants.

And fuck me in the ass, just yesterday a Syrian family was interviewed and they openly said that they considered leaving my country because we didn`t provide enough goods for them and the daily ratitions they recieved lacked ''imaginiation'' (as in beint rice/buckwheat/potatos and no ''exotic'' seasoning).

Spoiled fucks think Europe will go out of it`s way to appease all of their needs. Die in Aegean, fucks.