Frostbrand- Infuriatingly Bad in PvP

[Tumble]

If you consider one actual cap closer on a 45 sec cool down plenty, than I guess you're right.

[Hekili]

Is this a PvP issue?

What about http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=211062/static-cling?

[Applemonkey]

I've been messing around on the Ptr server and I find that dropping earthgrab totem is a good starter allowing you to close the distance and get Maelstrom up so you can apply Frostbrand also earthgrab is only a 30 sec cd

[LTCrystallite]

If you consider one actual cap closer on a 45 sec cool down plenty, than I guess you're right.

Earthgrab Totem = 30 sec cd
Spirit Walk = 1 min
Feral Lunge = 30 sec cd
Ghost Wolf = snare suppression back and 30% movement speed, 15 maelstrom/2 sec in combat with the artifact trait

Get yourself a priest with Angelic Feathers or Body and Soul or something. Legion is a lot more team focused and less lone wolf PvP hero. We'll be fine.

- - - Updated - - -

Is this a PvP issue?

What about http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=211062/static-cling?

It's good, but considering you need to be in melee range to use it, it's not really a way to close gaps or keep targets still. It does help a tad bit, but it's situational.

[Deleted]

I wasn't referring to gap closing alone, just how the new Frostbrand isn't all that bad. As a gap closer, Frost Shock is definitely miles better, especially with Frozen Power, but I'm pretty sure with all the classes/specs losing CC, defensives, DPS cooldowns etc that no class is supposed to be able to do everything all the time.

The new Fb isn't just worse than FrS (talented or not), it is also weaker than the original FB, save that we're spared of imbue twisting. The MS cost and limited duration make it more maintenancy for lower benefit (3s duration only, no UE version for ranged snare).
I cant comment much on the overall balance, but I know that warriors at the least haven't lost much in the mobility department. Demon Hunters supposedly have it as part of their class identity, and I kinda doubt rogue/ww monks/ferals suddenly turned into cripples there. I've also heard that paladins got supercharged gap closing as well, to the point of which it's hard to maintain a distance on them. Looking at the things I do know, I am doubtful that enh is on even ground mobility-wise.
I've seen legion enh pvp vids where we wreck face, but the opponents there hardly kite much there, so that's not much of a help.

-A 2 second charge on capacitor totem (now Lightning Surge) that can be placed up to a 35 yard range is mountains better than it's current WoD self. It has a more accurate animation as well.

Similar to hex, you might want to save that for an actual kill window, rather than gap closing. Especially if the enemy is trying to kite you, meaning he's most likely to outrange even the new version with shorter charge.

-On the current PTR, Ghost Wolf does still have the snare suppression.

That's a ray of hope at the least. I wonder how much it will account/balance out for with other classes' toolkits then.

-I think I read Wordup's graph on Feral Spirit being like 11-13% overall damage if you include the Doom Wolves and Alpha Wolf traits, but I'm not sure how much more dmg Doom Wolves adds so I'll just reserve judgement til I get confirmation on this.

The point being was that Wolves dont count as mobility really, because you're not going to make kills with them or pressure enemies or something. The MS they generate requires you to make it into close range, which is the beginning issue.
You've set me a little at ease though with ghostwolf's snare repression's return.

-Less magic buffs in the game > Purge is more vital, something to abuse when you're running at a target

Yes, but we need mobility to make use of those purged effects to make it into our preferred distance.

-Most classes and specs have less tools and are relatively more squishy than on live

That counts for us just as well though. Enh got much more squishier as well and If we cant put continuous pressure on our enemies, they'll turn us into mince meat instead quicker than you can say "shaman kabob".

- Feral Lunge, Spirit Walk and Ghost Wolf can be enough to get within 10 yards of many of the roster. If you have a team with enough stuns, you can even go with Earthgrab Totem now that you can place it at a 35 yard range.

I hope they indeed are. That said; Feral Lunge being a talent is bugging me. Talents are supposed to be optional, not mandatory. So far, it seems Feral Lunge will be mandatory, hence the suggestion to strenghten baseline utility. Spirit Walk has it's 1m cd still and also shortened (halved) duration. Assuming you dont go FL in terms of talents, and SW is on cd, GW will need to be good enough indeed (what I am hoping for). If it's not, FB getting a range buff would be very much welcome.

-I also want to point out that the alternatives to Feral Lunge are a not so reliable AoE heal that doesn't move and a sweet movement speed raid buff totem that is on a long 2 min cooldown. Feral Lunge is plenty useful, Gust of Wind is great but apparently Blizz doesn't think Enhance should have a safety net air blink on a 15 second cooldown.

True, but maybe blizz will buff these two exactly because of that. If HR ticked for 5% health every 2s for example, it'd be good enough to consider instead of SL. The point of talents is to be an option, not a dictate.

[Renedric]

Certain posts in this thread made me question whether some people even know what a gap closer is. Scenario: Ranged attacks you with ranged attacks (whaddayaknow?!) after having a melee combat and using up your talent coolies. You run towards ranged, they start kiting. You use ghost wolf for that fat 30% speed bonus, they use one of those basic snares most classes come equipped with (You know, similar to frost shock?). You're back down 100% speed (cuz ghost wolf yay), but they're still kiting and you have no way to catch up! Distance closed = 0yds. By the time your 45 second cooldowns are up, you are dead.

This my friends, happens quite often. I mean pretty much all the time you're facing a ranged player. In case I do have some of my utility available, lets not forget they also have their own escape utility. When player utilities cancel each other out, it all comes down to this basic essential ranged snare that they took away from us. Frostbrand is shit. If they want to remove our ranged snares, give us the full warrior treatment. Make Feral Lunge a basic shaman ability with a similar cooldown to charge and have it generate some maelstrom. Frostbrand should also be an 8 second player debuff instead of this bullshit auto attack 3 second snare. Lets face it, if your opponent gets out of melee range for a mere 3 seconds, they're free. Where's the fucking logic behind having a self-applying short duration melee snare (which it really isnt, cuz you gotta cast it and then wait for auto swings to land) when you're already in melee range? Snares are applied so opponents do not get a way from you and frostbrand's 3 second debuff, no matter how fast is reapplied, its extremely easy to get out of.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

most of us think you just want to be OP and have no possible downtime on a range player at all, we have a gap closer and its one that has been asked for since the dawn of time, we have a lot of slows and we have good damage if you dont like that well...warriors are that way

[Renedric]

most of us think you just want to be OP and have no possible downtime on a range player at all, we have a gap closer and its one that has been asked for since the dawn of time, we have a lot of slows and we have good damage if you dont like that well...warriors are that way

I'm sure whoever "most of us" is, did not read what I posted about the limitations of frostbrand as a snare ability compared to pretty much all other snares out there. I've been playing enhance for a very very long time in both pve and pvp at high levels and I can assure you that what we got as a replacement for frost shock is far inferior and pretty much locks us out of a whole talent tier by making feral lunge mandatory in pvp. I don't know if you're too slow to catch on this, but we got screwed with this ability.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

so what? its mandatory in arena? its not a bad ability, it could have a shorter cd but its what most people have wanted for enhance. iv been playing enhance since vanilla and it has come a long way ,in legion it has the viability to be in more arena comps than it has in the past five years or more. in rbgs i can see us also making use of the speed buffing totem to some extent. having talents that arnt good in all situations is what has been the case since forever so crying about that is kinda silly at this point. sure its not as good as frost shock for instant slows from afar but its not our only ability in our toolkit that we have to reach the enemy not to mention that 1v1 doesnt matter in the slightest because arena is not based around that. now that we have a much more dependable kit to use from without having to manage totems half as much as we did prior we will be able to work with other classes that make catching our enemy easier. i understand that its not as good as it was but having it is the lesser of two evils if the other choice was to be the same as we are in live.

[Renedric]

Lesser of two evils? Do you even hear yourself talk? This isn't a presidential primary and Frostbrand isn't Hillary. Also I won't accept any of this crap just because you dreamed of a charge ability when you were a little boy (and apparently so did a buttload of imaginary enhance shammies that support your point of view lol) because we clearly got the shaft with it compared to what we had. Here, "warriors are that way" as you clearly stated before. We got screwed over with Frostbrand most likely because of some class identity bullshit design choice and Blizz needs to realize they made a mistake with it and revert it before it goes live.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

man i think if you cried any harder we might actually need a boat, frost shock is gone deal with it. we have more abilities than just frostshock and it was far from an iconic ability for shamans. how is gaining better dmg, an actual gap closer not just a slow and a speed buff and lightning leash shafted? we have one real gap closer atm but we have a lot of abilities to stick to our enemies.the only thing you are willing to hear is yes renedrick is right lets all bend over and take all his ideas into our ass. we have much better abilities then we do now and if you really think that that pvp is dead for shamans because we dont have frostshock then you are just a joke and really should reroll to a different class

[Renedric]

man i think if you cried any harder we might actually need a boat, frost shock is gone deal with it. we have more abilities than just frostshock and it was far from an iconic ability for shamans. how is gaining better dmg, an actual gap closer not just a slow and a speed buff and lightning leash shafted? we have one real gap closer atm but we have a lot of abilities to stick to our enemies.the only thing you are willing to hear is yes renedrick is right lets all bend over and take all his ideas into our ass. we have much better abilities then we do now and if you really think that that pvp is dead for shamans because we dont have frostshock then you are just a joke and really should reroll to a different class

At this point I don't know whether you're real or are playing some reverse mindfuck with me. So you're agreeing that it's a shitty ability, but accept it nonetheless because you have a talent tier that can make up for it? I don't know where that "if you really think pvp is dead" came from, but I suspect from the same place as the supporting imaginary enhancement shaman population that you love mentioning in all your posts. I've presented you with all the reasons why frostbrand is inferior to frostshock and a really bad gap closer/snare in pvp, yet you're still just passively accepting it with no real valid reason why. Your counter arguments are the arguments i'm trying to make against Frostbrand. Please tell me you're a troll because you've succeeded in blowing my mind. I mean this shit is reaching high levels of autism never reached before.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

there's no point arguing with you man, there are threads on this very forum where other shamans have talked about abilities like lunge so its not imaginary people as you claim. but i cant be bothered continuing this pointless discussion.

[Renedric]

...title says "Frostbrand"

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

doesnt matter now lol that nerf to our resouce regen was crazy, we probs are screwed in pvp now since we wont even be able to heal anymore

[Renedric]

doesnt matter now lol that nerf to our resouce regen was crazy, we probs are screwed in pvp now since we wont even be able to heal anymore

Least we can agree on something. I can somewhat agree with the dmg nerfs but current resource regen is limited and does not change much from gear progression. Doubt these resource changes will last long though.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

i just hope it doesnt end like it always does and we are sub par until a week before expansion ends...again

[Renedric]

Wouldn't be surprised. Blizz has a history of pulling these kinds of stunts on shammies.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

ok i take it all back it really is a shit pvp ability
playing in ptr bgs is just....blaaarg

[Applemonkey]

This is what i want but for shaman

Hand of Hindrance
Paladin - Retribution Spec
27% of Base Mana 30 yd range
Instant 30 sec cooldown
Requires Paladin (Retribution)
Places a Hand on an enemy target, reducing movement speed by 70% for 10 sec.

Or maybe frost shock would be fine