Why do hunters seem to be extremely dissatisfied with MM?

[Kidoeng7]

Well i came here to read whats wrong with MM spec and all i got was other class players bitching to hunters on how good they had it and how they will pay now.
Can we please have a some constructive opinions of Beta testers and not all the rest who have no clue and just want to raise their post numbers???

thank you

[sultangurde]

Well i came here to read whats wrong with MM spec and all i got was other class players bitching to hunters on how good they had it and how they will pay now.
Can we please have a some constructive opinions of Beta testers and not all the rest who have no clue and just want to raise their post numbers???

thank you

Played MM in alpha up to level 110 and also have 2 hunters on Beta (one BM and char copied MM).
What i noticed:
1. MM was gutted: they took away Chimera and Killshot. This was compensated by 50% crit chance during Trueshot trait and crit stacking under 20% on target.
2. Spells for aoe are in single target rotation.
3. Sidewinders is so lazy design: replaces arcane shot and multishot.
4. There are 1 (must pick) or 0 (useless) talents.
5. Mobility is low and gameplay is clunky (no fluency, focus problems, too long casts - vulnerable falls of the target before Aimed hits)
6. Trueaim talent is useless, because it drops too often before it even reaches 20 stacks - or you have to play with arcane shot (bye bye sidewinders).
7. LnL 10% chance to proc is too low.
8. Maybe if bombardment procs much more often and work with sidewinders it would be ok (not 100% sure about it).

[construkt]

I could give two shits about movement changes, buy leaving our core abilities to waiting on auto shot RNG is just garbage class design.

There are no ability/stat interactions, no real talent choices, static rotations, and waiting around for random debuffs to proc so you can actually do something.

I'm fine with movement limitations but don't make the rotation feel like clunky dog shit.

[DeicideUH]

IMO, it's a matter of how the spec "feels". In live, you feel like a powerful, slow sniper. You cast a few shots, but they do huge damage.

In Legion, it seems you are throwing arrows constantly, but they hit like a wet noodle. It's as if you were a learning gunslinger that's throwing arrows like crazy but can't hit most of the time.

We also lost our mobility and defenses, which makes it feel more like a gimped caster than an agile ranged fighter.

The talents are all messed up, with many options that are either not good or uninteresting (I hate Sidewinders in particular, because it's a dumb ability that murders the "class fantasy" of a sniper, but ends up being the mandatory talent of its row).

There should at least be a few talents to recreate the old feeling/style of the spec.

Also, the bolded parts:

I could give two shits about movement changes, buy leaving our core abilities to waiting on auto shot RNG is just garbage class design.

There are no ability/stat interactions, no real talent choices, static rotations, and waiting around for random debuffs to proc so you can actually do something.

I'm fine with movement limitations but don't make the rotation feel like clunky dog shit.

THe movement limitations may not seem bad from a raiding perspective, but in PvP and soloing things the mobility loss without defensive skills that casters have are going to make the spec really hard to play. In WoD I could solo a lot of content by using mobility as defense as MM Lone Wolf, in Legion I won't be able to do the same.

[Sylv_]

It doesn't play in a way that is fun anymore. I find it boring, lacking and just lacking.
I did not find anything enjoyable about any of the new specs.

It's not just MM. BM is lackluster, SV is really gimmicky; target switches are fucky, with the chance of losing a giant chunk of dps because you were stunned, etc.

The sheer gutting of the class and it's core abilities, like aspects, was a shit idea. Huge cooldowns, huuuugeeee. Utility and mobility scrapped.
They could have made each spec unique, but instead, they made 3 brand new classes, basically.
Hunters were inherently, as I feel, solo and two hybrid dps. GGGGGGGGG.
Class identity is gone.

RIP Hunter.

[Thursley]

IMO, it's a matter of how the spec "feels". In live, you feel like a powerful, slow sniper. You cast a few shots, but they do huge damage.

In Legion, it seems you are throwing arrows constantly, but they hit like a wet noodle. It's as if you were a learning gunslinger that's throwing arrows like crazy but can't hit most of the time.

We also lost our mobility and defenses, which makes it feel more like a gimped caster than an agile ranged fighter.

I'm not sure if we're playing the same spec on live. The only rotational ability with a cast time we use in PVE is Steady Shot (which does pitiful damage), and the rest of our time is spent spamming instant aimed/chimaera shots, with aimed shot's focus cost often being reduced by 40% due to thrill of the hunt, and often refunding another 40% of it's maximum focus due to crit (or 66% of the reduced cost, not counting what you regen during the GCD). None of that is "a few shots" or "huge damage."

In fact, for the first time if you really want a big damage shot you have the option to take Piercing Shot which will eat all your focus for a really big, AOE-capable, damage burst. As for Sidewinders, your dislike of it being mandatory is reasonable in principle, but your specific issue is contradictory with your previous complaint. Sidewinders gives you a single burst of damage and focus on a short cooldown, instead of having you spam weak, instant arcane shots over and over, which is exactly what you said you DON'T want to have to do.

In Legion the spec is losing a bit of defense, but so is basically every dps spec, because blizzard is intentionally making DPS players a bit more fragile. As far as mobility I think it's pretty unreasonable to say we're MUCH WORSE off than casters even with not being able to move during aimed shot, and if that's your big concern you can still play BM. Giving multiple specs of a pure DPS class different strengths is a pretty standard move.

[DeicideUH]

I'm not sure if we're playing the same spec on live. The only rotational ability with a cast time we use in PVE is Steady Shot (which does pitiful damage), and the rest of our time is spent spamming instant aimed/chimaera shots, with aimed shot's focus cost often being reduced by 40% due to thrill of the hunt, and often refunding another 40% of it's maximum focus due to crit (or 66% of the reduced cost, not counting what you regen during the GCD). None of that is "a few shots" or "huge damage."

That's because you are playing with 4-set piece, and I'm mostly doing PvP/solo content and very little raiding. So, for me, Aimed Shot has cast-time, and if there was another tier in WoD, it would return to a cast-time for you as well, since that's the base form of the ability.

And Aimed Shot (and Chimaera Shot) do a lot of damage on live. Just compare:

- Aimed Shot: live (500% dmg) vs Legion (185% dmg). Even with Vulnerability or Patient Sniper, Aimed Shot damage in Legion doesn't compare with its former self.
- Chimaera Shot: live (660% magic dmg) vs not existing anymore
- Kill Shot: live (785% dmg) vs not existing anymore
- Marked Shot: Legion (225% dmg)

MM in Legion feels really weak.

In fact, for the first time if you really want a big damage shot you have the option to take Piercing Shot which will eat all your focus for a really big, AOE-capable, damage burst.

I like Piercing Shot. It's one of the few talents that feel right for a sniper. It consuming all focus doesn't bother me at all. However, it doesn't compensate the feeling that you are just shooting blanks the rest of the time.

As for Sidewinders, your dislike of it being mandatory is reasonable in principle, but your specific issue is contradictory with your previous complaint. Sidewinders gives you a single burst of damage and focus on a short cooldown, instead of having you spam weak, instant arcane shots over and over, which is exactly what you said you DON'T want to have to do.

Sidewinders just kills the fantasy of the spec. I mean, you can't even define what are those things you are firing.

And beyond that, sidewinders makes the spec feel even less with its former self. Other classes I've played in PTR, like Ret pally, mage specs or Enh Shaman still feel like themselves, but MM is shaping up to be something ill-defined. In an expansion that defined "class fantasy" as one of its goals, they did a very poor job with MM.

In Legion the spec is losing a bit of defense, but so is basically every dps spec, because blizzard is intentionally making DPS players a bit more fragile. As far as mobility I think it's pretty unreasonable to say we're MUCH WORSE off than casters even with not being able to move during aimed shot, and if that's your big concern you can still play BM. Giving multiple specs of a pure DPS class different strengths is a pretty standard move.

Less defense I can handle. Everyone lost something, but we lost too much compared to others. I could handle losing traps, mobility or defensive cooldowns, but all three of them is a big too much. If we are being considered "casters" now, then we are still at a loss. As an example, my arcane mage in PTR can still sheep people, blink, backwards-blink, Ice himself, create a shield to soak damage or turn invisible, and I'm not counting talents. MM hunter has Exhilaration, Aspect of the Turtle, Disengage and Bursting Shot. Our main defense (mobility) is gone, our 2-charge Deterrence is gone, our traps are gone.

If it were up to me, I'd make the following changes to MM:

- Aimed shot back to doing big damage. Now applies Vulnerability, but doesn't benefit from it.

- Arcane shot damage reduced. Benefits from Vulnerability, but it never becomes better than Aimed Shot.

- Arcane shot and Multishot still apply Hunter's Mark.

- Marked Shot becomes our big-damage rotational shot. Can only be shot at targets with a Hunter's Mark. Benefits hugely from Vulnerability, but consumes the stack on the target.

- Lone Wolf is baseline.

- Lvl 15 Talent row: a talent to get pet back; one to cast Aimed Shot while moving and giving it a bonus crit chance, and a new version of Exotic Munitions that alters Aimed Shot instead of autoshots.

- Level 45 Talent row: Dash also makes AotC remove effects that limite movement and reduces its CD to 1 minute.

- Level 100: Sidewinders benefit from vulnerability, and apply Hunter's Mark instead of Vulnerability; Trick Shot improves AiS base damage by 15% always (instead of applying a buff to do that against a single target).

Other talents would need to be changed as well, but since this is just a wishful list, I'm not going to think too deep about it.

[ShasVa]

If anything I'm more pleased with MM now than I am with BM.

- MM can, with certain talents, double-pet tank, and without one of the pets dying on a 2 min cooldown.
- MM doesn't have downtime or focus starvation (or as much) like BM does.
- Bows seem to be more favourable with the Hunter community than guns, especially since Titanstrike is viewed as somewhat bland.

[Thursley]

That's because you are playing with 4-set piece, and I'm mostly doing PvP/solo content and very little raiding. So, for me, Aimed Shot has cast-time, and if there was another tier in WoD, it would return to a cast-time for you as well, since that's the base form of the ability.

And Aimed Shot (and Chimaera Shot) do a lot of damage on live. Just compare:

- Aimed Shot: live (500% dmg) vs Legion (185% dmg). Even with Vulnerability or Patient Sniper, Aimed Shot damage in Legion doesn't compare with its former self.
- Chimaera Shot: live (660% magic dmg) vs not existing anymore
- Kill Shot: live (785% dmg) vs not existing anymore
- Marked Shot: Legion (225% dmg)

MM in Legion feels really weak.



I like Piercing Shot. It's one of the few talents that feel right for a sniper. It consuming all focus doesn't bother me at all. However, it doesn't compensate the feeling that you are just shooting blanks the rest of the time.



Sidewinders just kills the fantasy of the spec. I mean, you can't even define what are those things you are firing.

And beyond that, sidewinders makes the spec feel even less with its former self. Other classes I've played in PTR, like Ret pally, mage specs or Enh Shaman still feel like themselves, but MM is shaping up to be something ill-defined. In an expansion that defined "class fantasy" as one of its goals, they did a very poor job with MM.



Less defense I can handle. Everyone lost something, but we lost too much compared to others. I could handle losing traps, mobility or defensive cooldowns, but all three of them is a big too much. If we are being considered "casters" now, then we are still at a loss. As an example, my arcane mage in PTR can still sheep people, blink, backwards-blink, Ice himself, create a shield to soak damage or turn invisible, and I'm not counting talents. MM hunter has Exhilaration, Aspect of the Turtle, Disengage and Bursting Shot. Our main defense (mobility) is gone, our 2-charge Deterrence is gone, our traps are gone.

If it were up to me, I'd make the following changes to MM:

- Aimed shot back to doing big damage. Now applies Vulnerability, but doesn't benefit from it.

- Arcane shot damage reduced. Benefits from Vulnerability, but it never becomes better than Aimed Shot.

- Arcane shot and Multishot still apply Hunter's Mark.

- Marked Shot becomes our big-damage rotational shot. Can only be shot at targets with a Hunter's Mark. Benefits hugely from Vulnerability, but consumes the stack on the target.

- Lone Wolf is baseline.

- Lvl 15 Talent row: a talent to get pet back; one to cast Aimed Shot while moving and giving it a bonus crit chance, and a new version of Exotic Munitions that alters Aimed Shot instead of autoshots.

- Level 45 Talent row: Dash also makes AotC remove effects that limite movement and reduces its CD to 1 minute.

- Level 100: Sidewinders benefit from vulnerability, and apply Hunter's Mark instead of Vulnerability; Trick Shot improves AiS base damage by 15% always (instead of applying a buff to do that against a single target).

Other talents would need to be changed as well, but since this is just a wishful list, I'm not going to think too deep about it.

Flatly comparing the tooltip damage % of aimed shot on live to Legion is silly, they aren't supposed to be on the same terms. The Legion version is buffed enormously by the Vulnerable debuff and artifact traits, among other things. The same is true of other abilities. Why does it matter that our abilities do a lower % of weapon damage? As long as they're properly balanced with other specs and classes and the spec is competitive, it's meaningless. As for the PVE set bonus fine, in Legion the cast will be even more sniper-like (slower cast and you can't move during it), and often still be our most damaging ability. Again, don't look at weapon damage %, that's not what matters.

In your list of defensives you shouldn't ignore talents, they're a part of the kit. MM gets an additional defensive ability in the level 75 row and a buff to one of your choice in the 45 row, which seems on par with what most classes get. Actually looking at arcane mages, if they want to add a CC ability instead of just modifying a currently existing one their only talent option is ring of frost, while hunters have 3. In addition to talents you didn't include concussive shot for slowing enemies (comparable to mage's slow) or aspect of the cheetah as a sprint. Mobility is limited, not "gone."

Your list of changes is also confusing because you don't give any specifics on balancing. How can aimed shot do "big damage" without even needing to be buffed by vulnerability, but then Marked Shot is also "big damage" and is buffed even more by vulnerability? How do you expect to keep damage balanced when you're only reducing the damage of Arcane Shot, our lowest damage ability (well, until it gets buffed by vulnerability, then it's decent damage again I guess), while buffing the damage of both Aimed Shot and Marked Shot? It's like when you say that you want the spec to be a "sniper" with slow, hard hits, but also be highly mobile and throw in very powerful defensive abilities and CC too. You can't have everything at once.

[Shaqthefat]

Thats not true though, that sort of game play and mobility can still be achieved. Consider semantics aside, Marked Shot hits as hard as
Try it on PTR, it actually feels pretty good

How it feels to me.. (Legion vs Live)
Piercing Shot = Live Kill Shot
Marked Shot = Live Arcane Shot (with TotH)
Aimed Shot = Live Explosive Shot (with L&L)
Windburst = Powershot

The rotation I fell into was;
Open with Sentinel > Marked Shot (twice)
Arcane Shot spam
Marked Shot on proc
Aimed Shot on L&L proc

For burst (3 stacks of vulnerability on target)
L&L proc up
Hunters Mark proc up
Marked Shot > Aimed shot x 2 > Piercing Shot

MM doesn't have arcane shot or Explosive Shot on live. Also if you are on live using powershot you shouldn't be playing a MM hunter

[DeicideUH]

Flatly comparing the tooltip damage % of aimed shot on live to Legion is silly, they aren't supposed to be on the same terms. The Legion version is buffed enormously by the Vulnerable debuff and artifact traits, among other things. The same is true of other abilities. Why does it matter that our abilities do a lower % of weapon damage? As long as they're properly balanced with other specs and classes and the spec is competitive, it's meaningless. As for the PVE set bonus fine, in Legion the cast will be even more sniper-like (slower cast and you can't move during it), and often still be our most damaging ability. Again, don't look at weapon damage %, that's not what matters.

Your list of changes is also confusing because you don't give any specifics on balancing.

Of course it matters. I'm talking about how a spec feels, not just about numbers. Numbers-wise, a 1-button spec with a single skill on a 1-minute CD can be balanced, but is boring as hell to play, doesn't feel right. Even if they manage to balance MM perfectly (and BTW, it'd not balanced right now), it would still feel strange and unrewarding if things are kept as they are now.

Just for fun, I'm leveling a hunter in PTR, swapping between specs now and then. It feels weird that, as low level BM, a single instant Cobra Shot can take away 80-100% of an enemy's health, as Surv I can kill one enemy per cast of the hatchet toss talent, but as MM the same hunter needs to stay still, cast for 2 seconds, and take something along 40-60% of an enemy of the same type. That's how MM feels like.

How can aimed shot do "big damage" without even needing to be buffed by vulnerability

Uh... like in, I don't know, WoD?

but then Marked Shot is also "big damage"

Like Chimaera does in WoD? Even better damage than Aimed Shot, but on CD to not be over-used?

and is buffed even more by vulnerability?

The idea is that base damage of Marked shot is lower, but once you reach higher levels of vulnerability, Marked Shot becomes a beast.

How do you expect to keep damage balanced when you're only reducing the damage of Arcane Shot, our lowest damage ability (well, until it gets buffed by Vulnerability, then it's decent damage again I guess), while buffing the damage of both Aimed Shot and Marked Shot? It's like when you say that you want the spec to be a "sniper" with slow, hard hits, but also be highly mobile and throw in very powerful defensive abilities and CC too. You can't have everything at once.

It's essentially a slightly different version of WoD's MM that incorporates the notions of Hunter's Mark and Vulnerability from Legion.
WoD AiS ~= Legion AiS
WoD Steady Shot ~= Legion Arcane Shot
WoD Chimaera Shot + WoD Kill Shot ~= Marked Shot

How do you balance it? Well, by changing how they interact with CDs and talents. Some CDs may be modified, AiS could have a slightly larger cast time. Marked Shot could be up more rarely.

That's how Blizzard makes a class: they first set up how the rotation feels, then later manage to adjust the numbers. Legion classes are not even balanced yet.

[Bullettime]

The overdependence on Sidewinders and Patient Sniper just feels fucking awful. Like they design a spec that clearly has problems in transition but give you the fixes as talented options. Makes everything else feel like crap to use.

[Thursley]

...
It's essentially a slightly different version of WoD's MM that incorporates the notions of Hunter's Mark and Vulnerability from Legion.
WoD AiS ~= Legion AiS
WoD Steady Shot ~= Legion Arcane Shot
WoD Chimaera Shot + WoD Kill Shot ~= Marked Shot

How do you balance it? Well, by changing how they interact with CDs and talents. Some CDs may be modified, AiS could have a slightly larger cast time. Marked Shot could be up more rarely.

That's how Blizzard makes a class: they first set up how the rotation feels, then later manage to adjust the numbers. Legion classes are not even balanced yet.

As far as I can tell that's more or less exactly what we're getting in Legion. Look, here's the first parse I found of a MM hunter from today's raid testing: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...et=27&source=5. I have no idea how well he's playing, and obviously things like different talents or AOE fights or whatever will mix things up, and this is only in the first 2 minutes of a fight so Aimed Shot is obviously propped up by cooldowns, but just consider this as a VERY preliminary baseline for the spec's damage distribution. Aimed Shot: highest damage total, damage propped up enormously by procs/cooldowns. Marked Shot: highest damage per shot, but available less often. Sidewinders: moderate damage, used for bursts of focus and applying Vulnerable. Marked Shot even has a similar feature as Chimaera Shot where it will be extra effective against additional targets.

So what's the difference between that and your proposal? Do you want Marked Shot to do a little more, and Aimed Shot a little less? Is that really SO significant? Being unhappy with the "feel" of the spec is one thing, everyone gets to decide what that means for themselves. But I don't think it's fair to support that feeling by claiming that blizzard has made big changes to the damage distribution of the spec's core abilities.

[Xtin]

i find MM in the shittiest state of all the specs in beta atm . Nothing is as clunky and as unfun . I cant even say anything good about it , well quiver looks nice.

[Nihilist74]

I think they are making marksman beast mastery have incredibly boring rotations in legion. In WOD, I felt like they were the best they ever been. They are a real let down for me. It didn't mind the survival change but I wish they didn't change anything about marksman and beast mastery.

[Kidoeng7]

Played MM in alpha up to level 110 and also have 2 hunters on Beta (one BM and char copied MM).
What i noticed:
1. MM was gutted: they took away Chimera and Killshot. This was compensated by 50% crit chance during Trueshot trait and crit stacking under 20% on target.
2. Spells for aoe are in single target rotation.
3. Sidewinders is so lazy design: replaces arcane shot and multishot.
4. There are 1 (must pick) or 0 (useless) talents.
5. Mobility is low and gameplay is clunky (no fluency, focus problems, too long casts - vulnerable falls of the target before Aimed hits)
6. Trueaim talent is useless, because it drops too often before it even reaches 20 stacks - or you have to play with arcane shot (bye bye sidewinders).
7. LnL 10% chance to proc is too low.
8. Maybe if bombardment procs much more often and work with sidewinders it would be ok (not 100% sure about it).

thank you mate this is what i would love to see regarding replies, on the other hand i am feeling bad for my beloved class

[toolsv]

Honestly the problem is just Sidewinders. It locks you into awkward timings and limits your focus because of that. It does weird things to your usage of aimed shot. If you take Patient Sniper as well it just gets worse.

If Sidewinders/Patient Sniper wasn't the strongest build I don't think people would hate it nearly so much.

[Bullettime]

Honestly the problem is just Sidewinders. It locks you into awkward timings and limits your focus because of that. It does weird things to your usage of aimed shot. If you take Patient Sniper as well it just gets worse.

If Sidewinders/Patient Sniper wasn't the strongest build I don't think people would hate it nearly so much.

The problem is that the Sidewinders/Patient Sniper combo is both a problem and the fix at the same time. People don't like how the combination plays but that combination is what patches up Marksmanship's core problems in the process, akin to Exsanguinate for Assassination. They seem to have just dropped everything half way through reworks, again, and relying on only half way tuned talents to fix the core problems.

[sultangurde]

Some people might not know but there are also 895 ilvl legendary items for each class.
They generally bring a nice feature for the class for example:

1. Each enemy you hit with multishot increased the damage of your next Aimed shot by 10%. Stacking up to 20 times.
2. The remaining cooldown on Trueshot is reduced by 1.0 sec each time you cast a damaging shot.
3. Marked shot has a 15% chance to not remove Hunters Mark.

I am not sure but it can be kickass with all MM procs that come from Bow Traits.
If 6 additional arrows (Legacy of the Windrunner) reduce cd on Trueshot by 6 sec that can be crazy and arcane shot spam reduce it also we might have a crazy Trueshot uptime.

Remember that Trueshot will be insane now (40% haste, 50% additional crit strike damage and marking everything around).