What makes a Great Raid?

[caervek]

The theme, the design/layout, the encounter design/variety.

IMO my all time favourite raid is Naxxramas. One overriding theme (scourge), the introduction of the "wing" design with five separate wings with their own theme (in keeping with the main theme), the final wing only being accessible after the last boss of the first four wings is defeated. It was a great raid, the only thing that comes close for me is Kara (which ironically follows none of that methodology lol).

[grexly75]

One word "Karazhan" nuff said..

[Sencha]

Interesting mechanics and difficult trash mobs between boss.

[Deleted]

Anub'arak had nothing to do on heroic except for healers had a very hard time healing penetrating cold in the last phase and tanks had to not let the thingies get behind them.

I was in a guild at the time that was on the 25m hc version of the boss before the world first was done. I remember tanks farming the Violet Hold trinket to get more block if I recall correctly.

I don't find any boss in there badly designed; everything had flow; no boss was based just on a single gimmick; and I don't think any of them was just a copy paste.

[Deleted]

raid is great when raiders show up and raid is not disbanded before it starts.

[jayeffkay]

Lore, design/layout, mechanics, ambience, challenge, and something that I think gets overlooked is the music. Props to the people that have contributed and helped create some of these masterpieces. Listening to Ulduar antechamber as I post.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Things Blizzard does?
-An enviornment that is easy on the eyes
Good art. Good feel. Newer boss models and newer trasn mobs. Nothing in to much excess but never leaving anything out.

-Cleaver use of past mechanics and coming up with new ones
Reuse mechanics wisely from the past. Always try to weave in some new ones to keep things feeling fresh.

-Good flow in and around the instance
I love an instasnce that give me choice in what direction to go first. Optional bosses can sometimes be fun (just dont over do it). It is also kind of important to me that early bosses in a zone are "easier" and ones deeper in get harder. Just is logical and stops confusion.

-Meaningful rewards
The gear of course is an obvious answer. But feeling like I completed a challenge is good too. Really unlikely and random rewards like pets and mounts are cool. Achievements are fun to chase as well.

But really the biggest thing to make a raid great? Have a team of friends and like minded guild mates to tackle it with!

[Rafoel]

The great raid is the one where you really feel like you are stopping a great threat. This has failed to be accomplished since Dragon soul:

1) Hellfire Citadel - Well, I guess Archimonde IS a great threat, but it isn't even our world... and we already killed him once.
2) Blackrock Foundry - a bunch of weird encounters against bosses that would be 0 threat outside the area we are fighting them in... in literally every encounter the main threat comes from the surrourounding (see trains, stompers, slag on floor, or ship cannons)
3) Highmaul - when we enter the supposedly threatening Ogre army is already being smashed by Cho'Galls minions. Heck, on mythic we don't actually even kill Imperator Margok, Cho'gall oneshots him before last phase begins. That makes all bosses but the last phase of mythic Margok redundant.

4) Siege of Orgrimmar - was Garrosh EVER a danger to the united alliance and other races of horde? We beat him twice... once there, and once of Draenor, where his army got much bigger.
5) Throne of Thunder - Thunder King was appearently strong, but we never witnessed it. His ressurection had 0 effect of the landmass of Pandaria. Still, probably best raid since a while.
6) Terrace of Endless Spring - why is it even so important to go there and kill the Sha? I still don't know.
7) Heart of Fear - Mantiss ultimately betrayed us in SoO, and it was to be expected. Still, they were too weak to defeat Mogu or Pandaren. Why did we care about their ruler?
8) Mogu'shan vaults - Appearently extremely important, but the vaults were hidden deep inside the mountain, with no questlines leading there... we basically randomly decided to enter and fight things that lied dormant there for thousands of years.

[Smallfruitbat]

For me, Ulduar had pretty much everything.

The artwork was stunning and innovative. There was something for everyone in terms of difficulties with the hardmodes. It didn't feel like the jump between normal/heroic/mythic of nowadays -you could try the achievement and if it wasn't working out then just do it normal. Loot was cool.

It wasn't entirely linear so you could skip around a bit on progression -struggling with Hodir, no problem -we'll sneak passed and go play with Freya for a bit of a break. The limited tries on Algy gave something to the hardcore guys to battle out.

For anything to live up to these is a pretty tall order. Karazhan was interesting and definitely one of my favourites, I loved ICC and Firelands too. The WoD raids have been descent quality but I just can't force myself to relearn all the fights to do mythic.

[Kikazz]

ToT not so much, still felt like a freaking hallway, other than that yes. also to add some encounters, LK, sarth 3d, alakir and majority of outdoor bosses, eventhough they havent really been any difficult past couple of years, they sure had a real feeling to it when you killed them first time, oondasta with 100s of bodies everywhere as an example.

So you like me also liked the old school vanilla world bosses, like Kazzak, and the 4 dragons? at the portals.

[Madeupname999]

Lore is a big one for me because iam at the stage where i dont give a fuck about killing no name bosses that drop loot that i stopped caring about it.

Killing a named character is WAY more exciting to me than killing a boss that has fun mechanics and fun loot cause i stopped caring about loot along time ago.

[Deleted]

Good bosses.

[Garnier Fructis]

Atmosphere.

[Deleted]

The great raid is the one where you really feel like you are stopping a great threat. This has failed to be accomplished since Dragon soul:

1) Hellfire Citadel - Well, I guess Archimonde IS a great threat, but it isn't even our world... and we already killed him once.
2) Blackrock Foundry - a bunch of weird encounters against bosses that would be 0 threat outside the area we are fighting them in... in literally every encounter the main threat comes from the surrourounding (see trains, stompers, slag on floor, or ship cannons)
3) Highmaul - when we enter the supposedly threatening Ogre army is already being smashed by Cho'Galls minions. Heck, on mythic we don't actually even kill Imperator Margok, Cho'gall oneshots him before last phase begins. That makes all bosses but the last phase of mythic Margok redundant.

4) Siege of Orgrimmar - was Garrosh EVER a danger to the united alliance and other races of horde? We beat him twice... once there, and once of Draenor, where his army got much bigger.
5) Throne of Thunder - Thunder King was appearently strong, but we never witnessed it. His ressurection had 0 effect of the landmass of Pandaria. Still, probably best raid since a while.
6) Terrace of Endless Spring - why is it even so important to go there and kill the Sha? I still don't know.
7) Heart of Fear - Mantiss ultimately betrayed us in SoO, and it was to be expected. Still, they were too weak to defeat Mogu or Pandaren. Why did we care about their ruler?
8) Mogu'shan vaults - Appearently extremely important, but the vaults were hidden deep inside the mountain, with no questlines leading there... we basically randomly decided to enter and fight things that lied dormant there for thousands of years.

Fking roleplayer

[Mirishka]

Memorable mechanics, well-written/acted dialogue (Shade of Aran for example), interesting lore, lots of variety in the fights/bosses.

Karazhan, Black Temple, Ulduar and ICC, Blackwing Descent/BoT/Firelands, MSV/Throne/Siege, and Blackrock Foundry are examples of raids I've really enjoyed. HFC is alright, but a year of it is getting to be painful.

Obsidian Sanctum gets an honorable mention because of the variety of ways you could tackle it, and I love the dialogue between Sartharion and the other drakes.

I'll always have a soft spot for MC, my first raid way back in 2005, but speaking honestly I can't stand it now.

Oh, and I'm in the group that actually liked Trial of the Crusader as well, but that's mostly because of the 'PvP' (Faction Champions) fight. I *loved* that encounter back in Wrath. Blizz did a hell of a job with their AI, imo.

[Thrif]

Lore connectivity - Basically, I don't want to enter a random castle and fight 8 bosses I've never heard of before. Siege of Orgrimmar was a pretty good example of a decent setup. Garrosh had been around forever as a character, as had Nazgrim, Zaela was heavily pre-established, as were Malkorok and the Shas, and the Klaxxi had their whole own zone setup with tons of quest. Sure, half of the bosses were fresh faces, but a lot of the encounters were heavily pre-established, which made the whole deal feel more immersive and interesting.

Design - Just overall design can make a raid a lot more interesting. Again, using Siege of Orgrimmar as an example since it did this brilliantly, it took us from Y'shaarj's vault to the well-known Orgrimmar but with a new underground complex twist, the whole thing was an exciting story as opposed to the aforementioned 8 bosses in different rooms in a castle.

Mechanics - Obviously, the mechanics of the boss is important. It should be challenging and interesting without being annoying or impossible.

[Mirishka]

The great raid is the one where you really feel like you are stopping a great threat. This has failed to be accomplished since Dragon soul:

1) Hellfire Citadel - Well, I guess Archimonde IS a great threat, but it isn't even our world... and we already killed him once.
2) Blackrock Foundry - a bunch of weird encounters against bosses that would be 0 threat outside the area we are fighting them in... in literally every encounter the main threat comes from the surrourounding (see trains, stompers, slag on floor, or ship cannons)
3) Highmaul - when we enter the supposedly threatening Ogre army is already being smashed by Cho'Galls minions. Heck, on mythic we don't actually even kill Imperator Margok, Cho'gall oneshots him before last phase begins. That makes all bosses but the last phase of mythic Margok redundant.

4) Siege of Orgrimmar - was Garrosh EVER a danger to the united alliance and other races of horde? We beat him twice... once there, and once of Draenor, where his army got much bigger.
5) Throne of Thunder - Thunder King was appearently strong, but we never witnessed it. His ressurection had 0 effect of the landmass of Pandaria. Still, probably best raid since a while.
6) Terrace of Endless Spring - why is it even so important to go there and kill the Sha? I still don't know.
7) Heart of Fear - Mantiss ultimately betrayed us in SoO, and it was to be expected. Still, they were too weak to defeat Mogu or Pandaren. Why did we care about their ruler?
8) Mogu'shan vaults - Appearently extremely important, but the vaults were hidden deep inside the mountain, with no questlines leading there... we basically randomly decided to enter and fight things that lied dormant there for thousands of years.

1. That actually was OUR Archimonde, meaning he very well could have (and would have) become our problem as well.

2. The Foundry was supplying the Iron Horde with most of their war machines and weapons, and Blackhand was arguably its greatest military mind. So taking that place out actually played a big role in our ultimate victory.

3. Highmaul felt less like a raid and more like a 'go here because we need power for our rings' stop along the way. No argument there.

4. Garrosh had the Heart of Y'saarj (or however that's spelled)... if we didn't stop him when we did, that would have ended very badly.

5. We stopped the Thunder King just after his resurrection, so I imagine he didn't have the time to become the threat he could have been.

6. We unleashed the Sha by coming to Pandaria with our lack of control over our emotions. Therefore it was our responsibility to deal with them.

7. They didn't 'betray' us. When you reach exalted with the Klaaxi, they tell you straight up who they serve/worship, and they warn you that they will side with him if it comes down to it. If anything, it was honorable of them to do that. At least we knew where their loyalties lie.

8. I'm not sure why we went into MSV either. I figure maybe I missed a questline or something that explained it.

[Grimbold of Skullcrusher]

Mechanics, aesthetics, difficulty, lore - everything is important for me - if one of these fails, the raid cannot be really good imo.

[LilSaihah]

Okay so let's work backwards from some of the raids that people think are great.

Karazhan was a great raid because it had extremely strong environment design. The mechanics weren't exactly amazing but there were a lot of unique fights, including the fight on the stage and the chess fight. What sold the raid was the music, atmosphere, and feeling of progression as you went from the grimy stables into the ballroom, dining room and theater, then up into the library, then up into outer space.

Ulduar was a great raid. Again, it had great environmental design and varied, interesting fights. What I think Ulduar did was it had quite a few really memorable characters; it included Thorim who'd already had a plotline, it had Yogg'saron and the ending to his arc, and it also had Mimiron and his creations which I think were part of what really sold the raid. Frankly, it also has the memes. In the mountains, toys, etc.

Something that's also worth noting is that neither of these raids are end raids, and very few raids which are considered 'amazing' are ones which were end of expansion raids. We can also see the inverse of this in Dragon Soul, a raid which didn't have those strong elements of environment design and didn't really have any memorable characters (deathwing is the weakest villain of any expansion yet) is, at least as far as I can tell, thought of as one of the weakest raids that Blizzard's put out.

So broadly speaking, I think the most important elements of the raids are the environment design, memorable characters, variety in encounter mechanics and not being an end-of-expansion tier.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Okay so let's work backwards from some of the raids that people think are great.

Karazhan was a great raid because it had extremely strong environment design. The mechanics weren't exactly amazing but there were a lot of unique fights, including the fight on the stage and the chess fight. What sold the raid was the music, atmosphere, and feeling of progression as you went from the grimy stables into the ballroom, dining room and theater, then up into the library, then up into outer space.

Ulduar was a great raid. Again, it had great environmental design and varied, interesting fights. What I think Ulduar did was it had quite a few really memorable characters; it included Thorim who'd already had a plotline, it had Yogg'saron and the ending to his arc, and it also had Mimiron and his creations which I think were part of what really sold the raid. Frankly, it also has the memes. In the mountains, toys, etc.

Something that's also worth noting is that neither of these raids are end raids, and very few raids which are considered 'amazing' are ones which were end of expansion raids. We can also see the inverse of this in Dragon Soul, a raid which didn't have those strong elements of environment design and didn't really have any memorable characters (deathwing is the weakest villain of any expansion yet) is, at least as far as I can tell, thought of as one of the weakest raids that Blizzard's put out.

So broadly speaking, I think the most important elements of the raids are the environment design, memorable characters, variety in encounter mechanics and not being an end-of-expansion tier.

I can't agree with you on every point. I think parachuting off a flying ship onto a Dragon Aspect's back is pretty strong environmental design, and easily as grand as anything in Karazhan or Ulduar. But I do like the idea of working backwards and looking for themes in all the comments.

Not being the end tier in an xpac is an interesting point. Perhaps that's the one people most tire of while waiting for the next xpac? ICC seems to be the exception; many people still list it as a favorite.

Memorable characters for sure. The Lich King has to be Blizz's most iconic villain and they did a great job building him up (remembering the impending doom as he pursues you in Halls of Reflection) leading into that raid. ICC also has Marrowgar, Saurfang, Putricide, Syndragosa... I suppose Dragon Soul was lacking in that category as every boss other than Deathwing himself was brand new and without much of a backstory.

Art & Music: Lots of people mentioning these. I think Blizz does a great job with the music overall for the game. Some raids are certainly more memorable visually than others.

What most players aren't mentioning is loot. While it's important to feel like you're advancing your character in some way - that's integral to games of this sort - the loot all gets replaced at some point. I'm actually more excited about gear that looks amazing for transmog than gear with better stats, as the transmog piece has the potential to stay with my character a whole lot longer.