[Legion subtlety rogue] Deepening Shadows, dooming subtlety to be too random?

[Takanasi]

Deepening Shadows
Requires Rogue (Subtlety)
Requires level 42
Your finishing moves have a 5% chance per
combo point to grant an additional charge of
Shadow Dance.

This would make the subtlety rogue dps cycle rely on a 20% chance per finisher to gain a charge for a crucial ability for the spec.

What do people think about this? Is 20% (25% with Deeper Stratagem?) per finisher alright?

Would it be better if it was something like this:

Your finishing moves reduce the remaining cooldown
of your Shadow Dance by X second(s) per combo point used.

[shaunika123]

well unless fights are too short it'll even out usually

and it's not like RNG isnt part of sub right now.

[Rikhart]

All specs in legion have RNG, some to stupid amounts, some like subtlety to a fun and engaging amount. There is also a Sub thread, no need to open another thread for this.

[elfporn]

Not too much at all.

Also reinforces Deeper Stratagem.

[Soisoisoi]

Deepening Shadows
Requires Rogue (Subtlety)
Requires level 42
Your finishing moves have a 5% chance per
combo point to grant an additional charge of
Shadow Dance.

This would make the subtlety rogue dps cycle rely on a 20% chance per finisher to gain a charge for a crucial ability for the spec.

What do people think about this? Is 20% (25% with Deeper Stratagem?) per finisher alright?

Would it be better if it was something like this:

Your finishing moves reduce the remaining cooldown
of your Shadow Dance by X second(s) per combo point used.

It averages out, but that doesn't stop you having lulls with no proccs - and without SD, energy regen is god-awful. I wish they made it give a flat cooldown reduction (say, 15 seconds per evisc or something, whatever the math equivalent is) that would be much better in terms of reliability.

This, Enveloping Shadows being required, and Shadowstrike/Backstab not just being the same ability (no SD action bar / ability to macro them either) are my only gripes with Sub currently.

[Mafic]

It's dumb RNG.

[kalaratic]

idk what u guys are talking about, deepening shadows is a garbage mechanic. ya we have rng even now but it isn't part of the core of the spec, it's mainly just the trinket. even with enough MS u can reliably know when ur rupture is going to get ticked. in dungeon bosses which are like 2 min fights i get to the point where i am barely getting enough charges up to support SoD, i can't imagine how bad it's going to be for raids

[elfporn]

idk what u guys are talking about, deepening shadows is a garbage mechanic. ya we have rng even now but it isn't part of the core of the spec, it's mainly just the trinket. even with enough MS u can reliably know when ur rupture is going to get ticked. in dungeon bosses which are like 2 min fights i get to the point where i am barely getting enough charges up to support SoD, i can't imagine how bad it's going to be for raids

Part of the complexity of the spec is managing your CD's. You shouldn't be dumping that last stealth CD until you know you'll have another available before SoD ends. It's planning that nullifies the rng reliance on deepening shadows, and makes deepening shadows just bonus procs.

Yea with blade twisting right now i'm refreshing rupture about every ~10-14sec or less. That's not fun. It wasn't fun with less multistrike, and it's not fun with more.

[kalaratic]

Part of the complexity of the spec is managing your CD's. You shouldn't be dumping that last stealth CD until you know you'll have another available before SoD ends. It's planning that nullifies the rng reliance on deepening shadows, and makes deepening shadows just bonus procs.

it's not even that, like just doing my rotation and always keeping 1 charge to refresh SoD sometimes i don't even get a charge back by the time i can pandemic refresh it. to be fair though sometimes i do want to burn a charge to get MoS up for my death from above and that does eventually screw me over but it feels so bad to cast it without MoS up

[Deleted]

I'm actually more frustrated about the RNG of Shadow Techniques than Deepening Shadows...

Very frustrating to to suddenly receive combopoints when you're about to use a CP generator and thus waste CP's.... Or just as frustrating not receiving them when you actually need them....

[Gonzalez]

I'm actually more frustrated about the RNG of Shadow Techniques than Deepening Shadows...

Very frustrating to to suddenly receive combopoints when you're about to use a CP generator and thus waste CP's.... Or just as frustrating not receiving them when you actually need them....

Yeah, at least with HaT you could plan ahead.

[defury]

it's not even that, like just doing my rotation and always keeping 1 charge to refresh SoD sometimes i don't even get a charge back by the time i can pandemic refresh it. to be fair though sometimes i do want to burn a charge to get MoS up for my death from above and that does eventually screw me over but it feels so bad to cast it without MoS up

I've had points where I've banked 2 ShD charges for SoD and still ran out of charges due to RNG, it's not interesting or skillful gameplay it's just pure garbage.

[elfporn]

I've had points where I've banked 2 ShD charges for SoD and still ran out of charges due to RNG, it's not interesting or skillful gameplay it's just pure garbage.

Please explain how you "Bank 2 charges of ShD for SoD and still run out of charges due to RNG".

The use of ShD is entirely dependent on you, there is no RNG element that uses shadowdance charges, it follows that being able to hold back 1 charge in order to refresh SoD is completely in the hands of the player.

[defury]

Please explain how you "Bank 2 charges of ShD for SoD and still run out of charges due to RNG".

The use of ShD is entirely dependent on you, there is no RNG element that uses shadowdance charges, it follows that being able to hold back 1 charge in order to refresh SoD is completely in the hands of the player.

Are you serious? SoD has a duration, you use ShD when that duration is about to end and you can keep it pandemiced. You use 1 charge of ShD and then save two to refresh SoD, I'm not sure what part of this is complicated. I'm not really sure what part you're misunderstanding but you seem to be very upset at Sub criticism.

*edit* just tested it with /timer, twice in a row I was able to make it to 50 seconds without a single DS proc and that was within the first 5 minutes of testing. That's 10 seconds less than the CD of ShD.

[elfporn]

Are you serious? SoD has a duration, you use ShD when that duration is about to end and you can keep it pandemiced. You use 1 charge of ShD and then save two to refresh SoD, I'm not sure what part of this is complicated. I'm not really sure what part you're misunderstanding but you seem to be very upset at Sub criticism.

*edit* just tested it with /timer, twice in a row I was able to make it to 50 seconds without a single DS proc and that was within the first 5 minutes of testing. That's 10 seconds less than the CD of ShD.

so lets see, SoD lasts 35 seconds. Applied on first Shadow dance use (let's assume sandbox and not an actual pull). Shadowdance is recharging now.

At this point you think you need to hold onto 2 full shadow dance charges to make it...past the 60sec mark? okay sure, you refresh at 35sec for second time, use second charge, 1 remaining at 1min10sec you use second charge to refresh SoD for another 35 seconds.

Now comes 1:45. This is where you would need another charge(or vanish) to refresh SoD.

This is all not counting any DS procs, vanish, a proper pull, etc. If this is how you think you need to play, you need to double check what you're doing.

On a boss pull, you'd have used SoD just before, no ShD charge needed, you should be using vanish/ShD and keeping back a charge until its needed for SoD, and/or using all if you know ShD will be back in time to refresh.

If you're not getting a DS proc within 105seconds, you're doing it wrong.

When i went and tested just the basic rotation, no min/maxxing, i had difficulty not wasting my ShD charges. There was no point over about 15 minutes where i felt like i was waiting on shadowdance at all.

The second time i tested, i decided to just burn em as i got em, and still, i did not have problems keeping SoD up, or generating charges.

In short, you should never be saving back 2 charges to refresh once. It's wasted dps, and you've got the chance to overcap charges if Deeper strat's extra roll procs. (remember that 6th cp is an entire second roll for all cp procced effects). You plan for 1 refresh ahead (+35sec) not for two refreshes.

If you want to be safe, just space out your shadow dances every 20sec, get Master of Shadows, and macro SoD to ShD. You won't even have to track it.