[Speculation] Will nest expansion introduce Alternative Origin / Sub-Races?

[Ielenia]

Since mecha-gnomes are just stone versions of gnomes,

They are not made of rocks and stones. They are mechanical beings. There's a difference.

same as dwarves just been flesh versions of Earthern, maintaining cultural and behavioral similarities too,

... How do you know for sure? We know next to nothing about Earthen culture... and what little we know doesn't really match up very well with the Dwarves. And mecha-gnomes? They have no 'culture'. They do what they're programmed to do. They have no culture of their own. They're just basically servants with no free will of their own outside their own programming.

they acceptably fit into the sub-race cateogry, unlike night elf which is a totally different creature to the troll it originated form, hence new species.

... One creature is made of flesh and bone, and needs food, water and air to survive. The other is made of stone and rocks, and needs rocks and minerals to survive. How are those two not as different, if not more so, as trolls and night elves? Same thing with gnomes and mecha-gnomes: flesh and blood vs cogs and oil.

Really? Racials are like the easiest things - you simply change them to something that fits the sub-race - they are just abilities.. the sub-race doesn't have to have the same racials as the main race.

Um... wouldn't that just basically, in game terms, make them a 'race' of their own, if their models and racials are different? In game terms, being a 'sub-race' is just a cosmetic thing, not a whole new 'race' (in game terms) of their own.

gilgoblins are just kaja'mite away from being intelligent - as you did see stupid goblins int he kezan starting zone, give em kaja'mite and they're smart again. Gilgoblins also walk and operate on land, they're amphibious not exclusively aquatic.

One, I didn't say they're 'exclusively aquatic'; and two, we don't know if exposing them to kaja'mite a second time would give their intellect back. I imagine if that's the case, we'd see intelligent gilgoblins around.

And being hostile is not a hinderance,

Never said it was, so I'm not sure why you bothered to mention it.

[Mace]

They are not made of rocks and stones. They are mechanical beings. There's a difference.


... How do you know for sure? We know next to nothing about Earthen culture... and what little we know doesn't really match up very well with the Dwarves. And mecha-gnomes? They have no 'culture'. They do what they're programmed to do. They have no culture of their own. They're just basically servants with no free will of their own outside their own programming.


... One creature is made of flesh and bone, and needs food, water and air to survive. The other is made of stone and rocks, and needs rocks and minerals to survive. How are those two not as different, if not more so, as trolls and night elves? Same thing with gnomes and mecha-gnomes: flesh and blood vs cogs and oil.


Um... wouldn't that just basically, in game terms, make them a 'race' of their own, if their models and racials are different? In game terms, being a 'sub-race' is just a cosmetic thing, not a whole new 'race' (in game terms) of their own.


One, I didn't say they're 'exclusively aquatic'; and two, we don't know if exposing them to kaja'mite a second time would give their intellect back. I imagine if that's the case, we'd see intelligent gilgoblins around.


Never said it was, so I'm not sure why you bothered to mention it.

exposing goblins to kajamite alwyas gives them intellect back - you played the goblin start zone right?


WotLK has a lot on Earthern - of which the frost dwarves are all, also if you played classic Ulduar and cata ulduar, you get a lot of info on them. they don't have to have a culture similar to the ironforge dwarves, heck dark irons and wildhammers have very different cultures to Ironforge dwarves.

and giving them appropriate racials would be expected and not "make them a race of their own" because they aren't really introduced as that, although in some respect they are a race of their own. The thing about sub-races to me is like your'e getting a new race but not quite - because the race is tied to an exsiting race and already has some sort of presence - it is easier to introduce. you can do without huge starting areas, defining new culture etc like they had to do for Pandas/Worgen, you don't have to have big exposes, 10-20 levels of quests etc, but at the same time you get a new race tha'ts not quite new. (is another way of looking at it)

oh and regarding gilgoblins i thought youw ere disqualifying them from being a suitable sub-race because you thought they lived only in water and wouldn't be able to participate on land.

I mentioned hostile not in response to you, just bringing up another point, some people feel because x-group are all enemies they can't be playable subraces, feel that the sub-group needs to already be in the horde or alliance - horde/alliance membership is just one plot or narrative away for those who don't already have it established in teh game so far..some woudln't even need that. .like half elves and half orcs would automatically be part of their races

[WolfRider]

@Mace High Fiiiiiiiiiive :P

The way I see the next expansion includes :

2 major features :
- the Subraces I described including Scenarios as Starting zone (using Old or New zones)
- Battleships combats (against other Battleships or Harbours/Citadels) and a "private" Harbour (may not gonna be released. it's a gameplay thing but not necessary for the story) and a title reward "Cap'tain"
2 normal features :
- new Zones :
- Koalaren island with a neutral Koalaren faction and neutral Jinyus. The Starting Zone Scenario begins with a video explaining the Koalaren origins, their settlement on this island and their actual problems. Then the questchain leads you to encounter Nagas attacking and kidnapping Koalarens until you meet a Pandaren on a beach next to a hot-air-balloon. He/She brings you to the Wandering Island that sails near and the scenario ends in the main temple. Then you join the normal questchain when you enter the second part of Pandaren Starting Zone.
Once you're lvl110, that zone has changed a little (same map, same points of interest), Nagas captured Koalaren and they chained them. The island became a Naga Spot because they are fighting on other islands. The questchain leads you to set the Koalaren free and build a Harbour on that island (most of new zones populated by Subraces will require to build a Harbour).

- Azothas island (North Part) is a large Zone with many points of interest. The Starting Zone Scenario for Azothas begins with a video explaining their origins, their settlement on this island and their actual problems. You start as a member of an Azothas Tribe (theres is many Tribes on the island) in your Village, there is a ritual involving you to fight another "Young" from a different Tribe. So you start to gather ressources to prepare the fight, until you're assaulted by Pirates of Bloodsail Buccaneers. Once you defeat them, you go to your opponent's village and see it ruined by other Bloodsail's pirates. They kidnapped the people and you deliver them. Among the rescued, you meet a smaller man, a Human from Kul Tiras who's ship has been attacked by the pirates you defeated. He tells you that his fleet was sailing to Stormwind, to warn their King that the Kul Tiras kingdom was in despair and attacked by Nagas and the Bloodsail Buccaneers. He got intercepted and beached here. You find other Kul Tiras survivor and decide to help them to deliver the message. Every Azothas village has a gathering specialization. The ritual allows the Village that wins to be provided by the loser for one year. The more strong young men the village has, the more chances to live well he got. So you start to ask every villages some ressources to build a ship. Then you sail to Stormwind with Kul Tiras survivors and some Ulfarks.
Once you're lvl110, your own village is stengthened by Alliance and become their Capital. Other Azothas villages are neutral. Azothas settled on that peculiar island because they found tracks of Vrykuls. Most of Vrykuls there are stasis, but something happened and some of them woke up strange. For both factions, main questline will lead you to investigate on what changed them in their stasis. The plot is that N'Zoth is corrupting them in their sleep and tries to gather allies to help him.

- Azothas island (South Part) is a smaller Zone beyond the mountains separating that area from the North. Before the Great Sundering happened, the Gurubashi Trolls occupied that part of Kalimdor and some ruins of their large temples still stand in the forests of these lands. Azothas learned chamanism when they were living in the Eastern Kingdoms, among the Troll Tribes, fighting them and trying to understand their magical powers. They learned druidism too. When Azothas came on the island, they spread into many Tribes on the North part. But some Tribes went southern and discovered the Troll Ruins and learned more on the Loas that Trolls worshipped. With that knowledge, these tribes enhanced their druidism and managed to enter the Emerald Dream. Sadly, these druids weren't prepared to meet the bannished Worgens and got caught into battles. When they woke up, they felt something changed in them and they sworn to Loas that they'll never go back in that plane again. Later, those druids changed into Worgens and started to attack their own Tribes, spreading the Worgen curse all around the South part of the Azothas island. Since they have a druidic culture, they could handle their Worgen curse and stop the spread. They decided to call themselves Ulfarks and to remain there, beyond the Mountains and their former brothers and to watch over the secrets of Troll Ruins.
The Starting Zone Scenario for Ulfarks begins with a video explaining their origins, their settlement on this island and their actual problems. You start as one of the Ruins' guardian and investigate in the up part of the ruins until you surprise a group of nagas carrying a prisonner to the depths of the ruins. You discover that they are trying to sacrifice a smaller man and decide to attack the Nagas and rescue him. It appears that the man is a Kul Tiras soldier and his ship was attacked by Nagas and Bloodsail Buccaneers. You investigate on the reasons of the sacrifice and discover that Nagas are trying to summon an ancient threat on Azeroth, an old bannished Loa whose thirst will be weaponised by Nagas' master : N'Zoth.
You decide to join the North part to warn Azothas and to help the Kul Tiras soldier. Next part is the same as Azothas.
Once you're lvl110, the south part of the island is invaded by Nagas who are fighting Ulfarks Tribes. You'll have to stop them and avoid them to summon the Dark Loa.

- Zandalari island [To Be Continued]

B]- new Dungeons :[/B]
- Nagas slavecamp on Koalaren island
- Vrykul Crypt on Azothas island (North Part)
- Vrykul Palace on Azothas island (North Part)
- Troll Ruins on Azothas island (South Part)
- Nagas stronghold on Zandalari Island (East Part)
- Night Elves Ruins on Zandalari Island (West Part)
- Bloodsail Buccaneers fleet on Plunder Isle
- the Dark Forest on Ny'Alotha

... [TBC]

[Ielenia]

exposing goblins to kajamite alwyas gives them intellect back - you played the goblin start zone right?

Again, gilgoblins are not 100% goblins. They suffered mutations (through unknown means) that adapted them to underwater breathing while sapping their intellect. There's a good possibility that said mutations could prevent their intellect to be restored.

WotLK has a lot on Earthern - of which the frost dwarves are all, also if you played classic Ulduar and cata ulduar, you get a lot of info on them. they don't have to have a culture similar to the ironforge dwarves, heck dark irons and wildhammers have very different cultures to Ironforge dwarves.

So, other than Dwarves having been descended from Earthen... there is really nothing truly linking them other than that. And again: the number of differences between these two races surpass the number of differences between Night Elves and High/Blood Elves. They can't be considered 'same race' or 'sub-race' in terms of gameplay and lore.

and giving them appropriate racials would be expected and not "make them a race of their own" because they aren't really introduced as that, although in some respect they are a race of their own. The thing about sub-races to me is like your'e getting a new race but not quite - because the race is tied to an exsiting race and already has some sort of presence - it is easier to introduce. you can do without huge starting areas, defining new culture etc like they had to do for Pandas/Worgen,

Worgens would like to have a word with you, now that you mention them. They're basically Humans who got altered by a spell. Sounds familiar? It should. It's the whole 'Earthen/Dwarves' thing again. And before you say that the Gilnean's culture is very different from Stormwind humans, I don't think I need to remind you that the Gilnean culture, up until Cataclysm, was basically completely enshrouded in mystery, so, for all intents and purposes, it was likely just like the Stormwind humans, which was, up to that point, the only human culture we knew so far. Blizzard made their culture all new from scratch for Cataclysm.

oh and regarding gilgoblins i thought youw ere disqualifying them from being a suitable sub-race because you thought they lived only in water and wouldn't be able to participate on land.

I 'disqualified' them because: a) they are different enough to warrant being their own race; and b) they had their intellect sapped. Granted, just like Worgen, they could have their intellects returned, but I doubt Blizzard would grant a similar origin story for two (or more) 'races'.

- - - Updated - - -

- Koalaren island with a neutral Koalaren faction and neutral Jinyus.

Why would there be Jinyu in that island, considering the only reason they exist in the first place is because they're murlocs that evolved over time thanks to the mystical waters of the Vale of Eternal Blossom, in Pandaria? I don't see how they would exist anywhere else in the world. As for the 'Koalaren' joining the Pandaren starting zone, the Wandering Isle... just no. It's just too convoluted for that. Not to mention that I'm pretty sure the starting areas should remain unique to each race.

[Mace]

@Ielenia - point is many of these things aren't really obstacles that disqualify a group, in fact they just make the group more interesting and varied - which is what you want to a degree, and some of the adjustments they have to make gives an opportunity to do more interesting things, and tell more interesting stories. IF you had to explain why gilgoblins can x or y - you have an opportunity to for a feature or story.

they aren't written as hey - playable or sub-race has to be exactly x or y or z, the boundaries change all the time and it's based on what they want to do, they will change it to make it work.

[purebalance]

First of all Azshara and Nzoth need to die this expansion with a whimper so I refuse to entertain anything that even relates to them since people's headcanon about Azshara(and Nzoth since he's actually been determined to be one of the weaker old gods and not in control of things people thought he was) have blinded them to the truth.

Secondly, I don't want to see any more of the nonsense like character updates etc because they make it like it's a major feature and give an excuse for an expansion to be shit, but when you question it they say "Oh we have an art team on that so it doesn't affect raids, quests, etc" when it did.

[Ielenia]

@Ielenia - point is many of these things aren't really obstacles that disqualify a group, in fact they just make the group more interesting and varied - which is what you want to a degree, and some of the adjustments they have to make gives an opportunity to do more interesting things, and tell more interesting stories. IF you had to explain why gilgoblins can x or y - you have an opportunity to for a feature or story.

The issue is that you're ignoring things that are exposed in the game to make your points sound "logical". First is that the gilgoblins are quite differentiated from the usual goblin (playable race). Enough to be considered their own race. Second, you are assuming that exposing the gilgoblins to kaja'mite again will work. As in, a fact. As in, 100%, no chance at all of it not working. Something you have no way of proving. For all we know, maybe Kaja'mite has become poisonous to them?

they aren't written as hey - playable or sub-race has to be exactly x or y or z, the boundaries change all the time and it's based on what they want to do, they will change it to make it work.

No, they don't 'change all the time'. 'Race' and 'sub-race' use our (as in, real-life) definition of the terms, since there is no in-game description for those.

[Mace]

The issue is that you're ignoring things that are exposed in the game to make your points sound "logical". First is that the gilgoblins are quite differentiated from the usual goblin (playable race). Enough to be considered their own race. Second, you are assuming that exposing the gilgoblins to kaja'mite again will work. As in, a fact. As in, 100%, no chance at all of it not working. Something you have no way of proving. For all we know, maybe Kaja'mite has become poisonous to them?


No, they don't 'change all the time'. 'Race' and 'sub-race' use our (as in, real-life) definition of the terms, since there is no in-game description for those.

I'm not ignoring, I'm saying it's irrelevant. if blizzard want to make them playable, they will make gilgoblins able to be smart or sufficiently attractive in a way that suits them best, - i believe that kajamite does have an enhancing effect on them, and if it isn't recorded anywhere in lore atm, what I'm saying is that they'll write it so or invent something else.

remember, as a developer you make up the lore, anything happening is just a narrative or plot away. You really can't say gilgoblins can't be a sub-race because they're currently too primitive - when you know that can change especially knowing that kaja'mite affects goblins even we can see taht.

you shouldn't disconnect the two in these speculation threads that explore possibilities and ways. IF blizzard want to do them you can be sure a story will accompany.


saying that @WolfRider and anyone else... blizzard did 35 artifact quest chains in one expansion along with 12 order halls - and that was only part of a fully fledged expansion experience. They can do scenarios for 12 races and if they do order halls for races next time round, we could see some serious lore development in addition to the standard expansion experience.

[DarthMonk79]

Wouldn't have to do to much to make new starting zones, if they're able to do the zone's level with you to the whole world then all you have to do is maybe phase the zone or make certain quests for that race. Dark Iron would start in BRD and Burning Steppes. Hell make their whole leveling take place in BRD.... its big enough. Then they come thru into the outside world and take a FP to Ironforge and from there are able to go to next zones and such. Or build a massive tram the rides them all the way there. Can do the same for just about any other sub-race.

[Mace]

Wouldn't have to do to much to make new starting zones, if they're able to do the zone's level with you to the whole world then all you have to do is maybe phase the zone or make certain quests for that race. Dark Iron would start in BRD and Burning Steppes. Hell make their whole leveling take place in BRD.... its big enough. Then they come thru into the outside world and take a FP to Ironforge and from there are able to go to next zones and such. Or build a massive tram the rides them all the way there. Can do the same for just about any other sub-race.

new starting zones are a lot of work, they won't be made specifically to introduce a race, they would have to be part of the expansion, this is the difference between sub-race and a full race. A sub-race you can use the new expansion zone to double up for introducing the sub-race like the artifact quests in legion, this is exactly how they'll do it.

Artifact quests chains are about 13-20 quests long if you include the class quest. Something like 5-10 class quest and a 5-10 artifact phase - they can do that for each sub-race.

[Ielenia]

I'm not ignoring, I'm saying it's irrelevant. if blizzard want to make them playable, they will make gilgoblins able to be smart or sufficiently attractive in a way that suits them best,

But it wouldn't be a 'sub-race' of goblins. One reason is because they're too different to be the same race. First, their physiology is quite different from one-another. So much so that because of said physical differences the gilgoblin race has inherent abilities that do not belong to the base goblin race: aquatic breathing. Being a 'sub-race' is supposed to be just a new skin for the base race's model, like adding Dark Iron Dwarf skins to the base Dwarf player model. A sub-race does not add or remove gameplay characteristics of its 'base' race.

[Deleted]

I actually think the area the vrykul first touched down on and settled was what would become Lordaeron, in Tirisfal, a place the vrykul named because it was the region wherein Tyr fell (as in he died), but those are silly little semantics. Anyways, with forest trolls, only females would get access to "forest troll colours" (which is bullshit btw, they should get their own version of the skin made), for males it would be taller and bulkier skins. And to be honest... Not all sub-races needs to be introduced in these grand convoluted storylines as they're already part of the respective faction and sending them to battle in some place takes but one thing: an order from their leader. In some cases I fully agree, implementing a certain sub-race is a "simple" little story away. But that need not be used for all things. A taunka skin doesn't have to be added in some grand storyline, I just think they should work out a female taunka skin and then add them as alternative skins, same goes for Dark Iron, Wildhammer, Mag'har, Dragonmaw, forest trolls, frostborn, undead elves etc.

(Also OP, read into it... Couldn't find those Azotha mentions in-game, still fairly certain there are none, they remain fully an RPG thing so far, as far as I know) Adding some more convoluted sub-races (and honestly, new races that looks enough like an existing one to be worked in among them) can be used as a plot point, a thing you unlock through a quest using that particular race and then getting the possibility to take said race and redo them as this new "sub-race" you've unlocked for them. This could be used for sub-races and races such as nightborne, furbolgs (through pandaren), high elves (through night elves or humans), other troll sub-races, highmountain tauren, yaungol, other orc skins, gilblins, etc.. Then tweaking certain sub-races a bit in form of locking/adding some classes (like druid for furbolgs but no monks) and/or replacing racials, and voila, then we both have a system for sub-races being added as alternative skins chosen when making the character or through appearance change and races/sub-races being added through a storyline, the latter can be used for existing sub-races and similar races, and new sub-races added with a new expansion...

By the way, I just thought of two gnome alternatives that could be viable sub-races if you tweak the looks... Sand Gnomes and Voodoo Gnomes, we see sand gnomes in Outlands Terrokar with no backstory on them which I kind really want more on, and voodoo gnomes inside throne of thunder raid in troll quarters can even get a trinket which summons voodoo gnomes I want more story on them too... Also pygmies for goblins, pygmies and goblins are apparently related genetically after all (if I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong).

And a final note, unrelated to the topic at hand... Shouldn't Blizzard remove Appearance change as a paid thing and work the whole thing into the barbershop? Even gender change through some form of story like: "This is a gendermancer, they can change your gender for a price." I know it's ridiculous but this is WoW after all, convoluted and nonsense is part of the baggage.

[WolfRider]

@bobthecrop Gendermancer ? It's a Brasilian thing > Capoeira > Troll !!!!

Let me explain the COMMERCIAL interest to make the Sub-race possible from when you hit the "Create a new character" button :
You give the player a new skin related to a race he already loves OR a race he didn't really enjoyed in the first place.
You give the player a new lore related to the current expansion (as an Azothas you WANT to save your tribes and stop N'Zoth).
You give the player new starting questchains so he will enjoy a new aspect of his character's personnality.
In fact, you make the player spend more time in game and a new breathe for reroll.
Don't forget that the game will be around 15 years old when the next expansion will be released.

Azothas are not in game you were right, I thought there was a spot in Stranglethorn Vale.
The way I see them, they are like Mayan tribes, hunted by Jungle Trolls (who'd be like the other Mayans in the temples).
Like in the movie Apocalypto.

[Magnagarde]

More variety should be introduced to the current races, but having Arathor tribes is really far fetched. Thats like us finding a Spartan village in the middle of Europe without anyone noticing it for two thousand years.

Mists of Strom.

[Deleted]

More variety should be introduced to the current races, but having Arathor tribes is really far fetched. Thats like us finding a Spartan village in the middle of Europe without anyone noticing it for two thousand years.

Mists of Strom.

He didn't mean Arathor tribe, he mean Azotha. In the Warcraft RPG they invented a pre-cursor race to humans called Azotha, think of them like the missing link between vrykul and human. Vrykul get weakened by curse of flesh and become Azotha. Azotha devolve further and become humans. Now, currently they're exclusive to the non-canon Warcraft tabletop RPG and not linked to the Warcraft RTS/MMORPG game lore. OP would like them to be confirmed as an existing thing in WoW to be used as a sub-race for humans.

And OP, the Azotha ruins in Stranglethorn... Is from the tabletop RPG, not the actual game.