Would You Believe Me If I Say... Sabertooth is the best T90 Talent?

[Arthael]

Sims, Post 3 below. Sabertooth is currently bugged on Beta due to not refreshing Open Wounds.
I am still testing on beta and simulating accordingly, so take this with a grain of salt.

All of this inherently ties into the amazing artifact dragon we get: Ashamane's Bite.
Yes it is still a crappy 3% proc (pending tuning), but it is shadow damage that mirrors your Rip, that is your most powerful ability (And the most powerful ability in the game from a pure DPS impact perspective).

Sabertooth synergizes incredibly well with this, so much so that it is amplifying the DPS by nearly 5% over JW or EG.
1. Sabertooth snapshots your initial Rip for the rest of the fight; that is your strongest Rip - meaning any and all shadow rips will also mimic your strongest Rip.
2. Sabertooth increases your >50% Rip uptime.

Typically you opt to let Rip tick well beyond its pandemic (especially if its snapshotted), which means depending your RNG, your shadow rip can spawn at 1s - netting, pretty much, 0 damage because your Rip ticks always hit on the 2 second mark. Thus, in most current raiding logs (as Ferals opt for JW or EG), their shadow rips are only parsing 2-3% of their gameplay as 50% of the time these rips are spawning at 10s or less. If you take Sabertooth, on the other hand, the Rip will more or less be refreshed at around the 50% mark (maybe a bit lower if you take SR), net result being more Rips above 12s, more shadow rips above 12s. The effect is so dramatic that the 2-3% of your total DPS rises to NEARLY 10% OF YOUR TOTAL DPS.

The other benefits to this is of course you'll use more FBs, you'll use more BT stacks on FBs rather than BTs on Rips

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Jagged Wounds brings forward two glaring issues - reduced Rip uptime (ESPECIALLY if you take SR, like you are considering 80% Rip) or no FBs at all (some people are opting for this - to not use FB at all), and reduced shreds (which, moving forward, is a terrible idea cause your entire set bonus revolves around squeezing as many shreds as you can in a rotation).

EG on the other hand makes things easier as it lets you set up your SR pre-stealth and gives you an easy refresh of SR every 24s. Problem is, with SR, you are resource locked more heavily than CP locked. These extra CP will not benefit you, relatively, and more often than not, you'll end up overcapping CP on the timed release component. You also have to manage your energy even more heavily than you already do since you need to hit 5 CP, then finisher, then EG, then finisher and then finisher soon if you want to maximize EG every 45s.

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So when will JW be useful? AoE situations - you'll get to use more Thrashes and more Rakes across the board - proccing more Shadow Thrashes and limiting use of Swipe. Brutal Slash is for burst AoE situations that are 45s apart, and you can use it in your ST rotation if the phases are further apart (so if the trash is every minute like Iskar Mythic Progression days, then you'd use one stack in ST rotation). This is where BT shines, with JW; the CD actually makes sense because you have so much to do in between doing that heavy hit. You'd typically want Thrash up 100% of time (due to shadow thrash) and from there Brutal Slash not capped at 3 charges, Rake up on everything, and if the adds are under 30% HP, ignore Rake - refresh Thrash and eat up your Brutal Slash charges.

And when will EG be useful? When you have a lot of disconnects or main-target swaps (not council, but timed swaps).

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Let me know what you think. Of course its not that great until you unlock that artifact perk .

[Lucrece]

I like any talent that doesn't push FB out of the rotation, which the other talents do. So I like Sabertooth for that reason, because it lets me cast more direct damage abilities instead of renewing dots that might not live up to their full potential depending on how my group target switches.

It also makes Savage Roar feel way less crappy.Because Savage Roar has no other talent remotely competitive with it so I HAVE to take it. And even with Sabertooth it feels like crap without the right haste levels.

[Arthael]

All of the following were done with default gear (PVP set) with my rotation which sets up a better priority system and cleans up some snapshotting with BT and CDs. The only thing I didn't want to code for is every iteration of snapshotting and that energy has to bottom to 0 before TG use. It managed that (mostly) by itself, but a few times, there was an energy cap.

For comparison purposes, the base template given only nets you 168999 DPS with SR/ST/BT.

Lunar Inspiration/Savage Roar/Sabertooth/Bloodtalons:
http://imgur.com/xSxwd9U
(196492)

Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Sabertooth/Bloodtalons:
http://imgur.com/leCq5Pd
(195478)

Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Jagged Wounds/Bloodtalons:
http://imgur.com/HSIslfW
(176042)

Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Jagged Wounds/MoC:
http://imgur.com/oSRjHFC
(171993)

Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Elune's Guidance/Bloodtalons:
http://imgur.com/uIZP8XV
(165742)

===
With BiS Gear (Crit > Mastery > Versatility - or so I assume for Savage Roar, haven't exacted weights) - no legendaries, no set bonus (just not counting it), and no trinket use/equip effects:
http://imgur.com/4ikqOvW

(373777; so with Set bonus & Thrash + Shadow Thrash, that should hit ~400+ k // 391k just counting 16% (2 bleeds) on Shred
The 93% crit rate on Shred wasn't luck; the three artifact relics I picked were feral power, so shred crit % from artifact is 30% + 10% from critical strikes; = 92% Shred crit chance)

===

Opener: HT > Prowl > Rake > Ashamane's Frenzy > Savage Roar > Shred til CDs+Rip; and then maintain priority: SR > FB > AF > Rake > (Moonfire) > Shred.

Can be better, of course. And not entirely sure if managing Moonfire on an already energy starved talent choice is really that worth it - more room for error to drop Rake or SR for only a 1K DPS boost... shrugs.

[Deleted]

Interesting results pal. I personally like JW but realistically it will be unplayable if you take savage roar. IM hoping for a last minute change to SR for a duration buff and losing SR from opening from stealth feels horrible and clunky.

[Gemini Soul]

All of the following were done with default gear (PVP set) with my rotation which sets up a better priority system and cleans up some snapshotting with BT and CDs. The only thing I didn't want to code for is every iteration of snapshotting and that energy has to bottom to 0 before TG use. It managed that (mostly) by itself, but a few times, there was an energy cap.

For comparison purposes, the base template given only nets you 168999 DPS with SR/ST/BT.

Lunar Inspiration/Savage Roar/Sabertooth/Bloodtalons:
http://imgur.com/xSxwd9U
(196492)

Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Sabertooth/Bloodtalons:
http://imgur.com/leCq5Pd
(195478)

^ This goes away with more gear emphasizing Shred btw; so if you get feral power on artifact gems or w.e and set bonus, lunar falls below bloodscent and predator.

Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Jagged Wounds/Bloodtalons:
http://imgur.com/HSIslfW
(176042)

Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Jagged Wounds/MoC:
http://imgur.com/oSRjHFC
(171993)

Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Elune's Guidance/Bloodtalons:
http://imgur.com/uIZP8XV
(165742)

===
With BiS Gear (Crit > Mastery > Versatility - or so I assume for Savage Roar, haven't exacted weights) - no legendaries, no set bonus (just not counting it), and no trinket use/equip effects:
http://imgur.com/4ikqOvW

(373777; so with Set bonus & Thrash + Shadow Thrash, that should hit ~400+ k // 391k just counting 16% (2 bleeds) on Shred
The 93% crit rate on Shred wasn't luck; the three artifact relics I picked were feral power, so shred crit % from artifact is 30% + 10% from critical strikes; = 92% Shred crit chance)

===

Opener: HT > Prowl > Rake > Ashamane's Frenzy > Savage Roar > Shred til CDs+Rip; and then maintain priority: SR > FB > AF > Rake > (Moonfire) > Shred.

Can be better, of course.

Your opening is off, you should delay Ashmanes Frenzy till the block after Roar that way it is buffed by roar+tf+bt. 2nd block Shred till 2 combo TF/HT Ashmane into Rip

[Arthael]

Your opening is off, you should delay Ashmanes Frenzy till the block after Roar that way it is buffed by roar+tf+bt. 2nd block Shred till 2 combo TF/HT Ashmane into Rip

I tried that, was my first thought to make sure AF was buffed to the teeth, but it came out worse. I still have to tweak some things and clean up some loops - so lets see how it shapes up.Was more to share the Shadow Rip and how relevant it becomes with Sabertooth.

[Deleted]

The Challenge: Sabertooth refreshes your Rip to full, that is to 24s. Rip does no damage on application, so at 24s, it will do no damage. It will do damage at the tick that hits at 2s after application. If you can follow the train of thought here, it actually means you need to time your Sabertooth refreshes such that you use your Ferocious Bite right as you see a Rip tick.

Since when are DoT's and HoT's not fluid anymore? O.o Since when are DoT's and HoT's resetting their ticks? Sabertooth specific stuff?

[Reiziger]

I actually really hope you are right. It would be a big shame imo if we'd have a rotation where we never get to use ferocious bite (or even worse, shred). Not only is a rotation where we use different finishers depending on factors more interesting, in this case it also means we get to enjoy more of the new animations (and new FB looks awesome imo)

[Arthael]

Since when are DoT's and HoT's not fluid anymore? O.o Since when are DoT's and HoT's resetting their ticks? Sabertooth specific stuff?

just tested it a few times, nevermind; they fixed it since I reported it with the refreshed Rip not proccing OW.
Since they took so long, I figured it was intended as a nuance to it - changed the stuff in the OP.
It just adds the second value left for the next tick to your next Rip, so yup its fluid.

[Alvirain]

What do you get if use Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Sabertooth/MoC using your improved rotation? With the default one I have been getting higher sims than if I had used Bloodtalons, I would imagine you could get this even higher if you made it so the rotation uses the MoC procs to thrash.

[Arthael]

What do you get if use Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Sabertooth/MoC using your improved rotation? With the default one I have been getting higher sims than if I had used Bloodtalons, I would imagine you could get this even higher if you made it so the rotation uses the MoC procs to thrash.

Let me tweak it and see. Also need to evaluate if SR is worth it over Incarnation since the nerf.
BB with results in a few.

- - - Updated - - -

SR/ST/BT
http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...22370da87cbeef

SR/ST/MoC
http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...ba87f25dfbb38d


Both seem viable.
Using Thrash without the CP generator from set bonus has been a DPS loss irrespective of whether you cast it only using clearcasting or not.

SR/ST/MoC /w Thrash
http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...99c8b30f87d01f

SR/ST/BT /w Thrash
http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...e34fb8162a1f65

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The best still looks to be:
Lunar Inspiration | Savage Roar | Sabertooth | Bloodtalons
http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...3472f5300606c9

[Kelonaar]

Just to point it out so you aren't wasting your time testing it yet if you didn't notice, Savage Roar doesn't appear to be updated for the nerf in AMR's sims so far.

Also, I can't confirm this myself since I have very little experience with working with sims and theorycrafting, but I've heard mention in a few class discord channels that AMR's base sims may have some flaws. Which is to be expected since both it and Legion are both in beta. Figured I should mention it so people can take the info with a grain of salt in regards to them if that's what you're working with.

[Arthael]

Just to point it out so you aren't wasting your time testing it yet if you didn't notice, Savage Roar doesn't appear to be updated for the nerf in AMR's sims so far.

Also, I can't confirm this myself since I have very little experience with working with sims and theorycrafting, but I've heard mention in a few class discord channels that AMR's base sims may have some flaws. Which is to be expected since both it and Legion are both in beta. Figured I should mention it so people can take the info with a grain of salt in regards to them if that's what you're working with.

It has been updated, the damage drop accounts for the 5% (+ crit multiple) drop.

AMR base sims are not great because the template rotations are barebones; if you tweak it and construct your own, its a great tool.

[Kelonaar]

I could be wrong, but Savage Roar is still showing up as a 30% damage modifier. At least in the most recent sims that you linked. The gear set you're running with in the sim could also make things a bit wonky since(as far as I know) it's heavily stacking Feral's two worst stats and running a PvP health on use trinket which may have the potential to skew the results towards some talents. For SR vs Inc for example, a second proc trinket or an on-use that could be stacked up with Inc's opening burst could potentially make up the difference between the two depending on the fight length. Having a gear set more focused towards crit+mastery would also affect the strength of bloodtalons.

Like I said though, I'm no expert here and I'm definitely not trying to shoot holes into your work. I just figure these are the types of things that help flesh out sims to get more accurate results and I'm hoping it can help in some way.

[Arthael]

I could be wrong, but Savage Roar is still showing up as a 30% damage modifier. At least in the most recent sims that you linked. The gear set you're running with in the sim could also make things a bit wonky since(as far as I know) it's heavily stacking Feral's two worst stats and running a PvP health on use trinket which may have the potential to skew the results towards some talents. For SR vs Inc for example, a second proc trinket or an on-use that could be stacked up with Inc's opening burst could potentially make up the difference between the two depending on the fight length. Having a gear set more focused towards crit+mastery would also affect the strength of bloodtalons.

Like I said though, I'm no expert here and I'm definitely not trying to shoot holes into your work. I just figure these are the types of things that help flesh out sims to get more accurate results and I'm hoping it can help in some way.

No its cool; the more errors people find, the cleaner it becomes to test further.

I am still not sure where you are finding the 30% SR:
http://imgur.com/5xq1ZK3

Ya I can change them around, I just don't know what the baseline PVE gear is and that gear set is tuned to work with the template rotation, so it was a great comparison tool to see if my rotation was better than the one they had. I can provide a much cleaner and PvE centric sim if that'd help - I am just waiting on the tuning to be done (kappa).

[Kelonaar]

Can't post links yet cause of the post requirement, but it seems that the tooltip for Savage Roar is up to date. If you look at the Savage Roar spell page it's still showing a .3 (30%) damage modifier though.

Hopefully, we'll see some balance changes for feral within the next build or two to be able to have it at a stable, viable point to start thorough testing. Want to say thanks for putting the time into doing this so far. Don't think I'd ever be able to leave my shaman for a feral main, but the idea behind Feral and especially the new shapeshift forms definitely make me want to keep it as my main alt.

[Arthael]

Oh I see. Huh. Wonder why there was a DPS drop then.
I'll look through it once I get home.

[Arthael]

http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...087114ce10c720

Fixed SR, still the better of the options (assuming no EG master skill); I don't know why there was such a hard dip from last week - I guess they fixed a multiplier somewhere - wish there was a patch note or something.

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Also ya, if I change it all to PVE gear, you are obviously netting higher DPS (though I feel there's some error somewhere in the sim that is converting crit to have a higher % than it should in Legion - but w.e)

All 810-820 PVE gear, one artifact relic, half of the artifact uncovered - http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...4937c51888f5e5