Historically, how is DK DPS for raiding?

[Zer00z]

I haven't played the game seriously since WoTLK (and even then, I can't remember past DKs being SUPER overpowered at the start)

Looking at level 100 DPS charts right now DK seems to consistently be at the bottom. Since vanilla, I've found that history is typically pretty accurate (For example, warrior tanks always being OK. Mages / Locks / Rogues topping DPS, etc)

So can I expect DK DPS to be low-tier DPS for legion or is the current state of them kind of an outlier?

[Volitar]

I'll only talk about the tiers I know.

Necessary kiting for for some t11 bosses, easy raid spot

Very good DPS in Firelands (OP)

Mass grip needed for HFC, easy raid spot.

[Sithalos]

I'll only talk about the tiers I know.

Necessary kiting for for some t11 bosses, easy raid spot

Very good DPS in Firelands (OP)

Mass grip needed for HFC, easy raid spot.

I guess DKs will rely purely on damage in Legion, since they lost both Chilblains and Gorefiend's Grasp.

[Volitar]

I guess DKs will rely purely on damage in Legion, since they lost both Chilblains and Gorefiend's Grasp.

I don't doubt that DPS Dks will play Blood with DPS gear on some random boss just for grip.

[Nezia]

long story short: start the expansion strong as hell, then fall behind as patchs go. But my bet is that is changing a bit at least, for legion.

[Sinzaram]

I guess DKs will rely purely on damage in Legion, since they lost both Chilblains and Gorefiend's Grasp.

Well might of lost those talents, but we've also gained similar utility that seems to be going overlooked. Heres a list:
Frost:
Remorseless Winter - now 20 second cooldown 8 second duration. Its a core part of aoe dps and it slows every mob by 50% for 3 seconds every tick.
Abomination's Might - 2 second stun that seems to pretty much proc on every obliterate from some brief testing.
Winter is Coming - 1 minute cooldown aoe 4 second stun, simlar to live Remorseless Winter
Volatile Shielding - A talent that boosts AMS making 25% damage absorbed be returned to everything in aoe, this might have some neat cheesing uses in raids or CMs maybe.
Mirror Ball - Artifact trait that makes using AMS remove debuffs from you, we have cloak on a minute cooldown, definitely utility.

Unholy:
Sludge Belcher - second single target deathgrip to the pet on a 30 sec cooldown.
Asphyxiate - this isn't new but its still a 5 second long single target stun on a short 45 sec coodlwon.
Debilitating Infestation - 50% aoe snare 8 second duration with no cooldown but 1 rune cost. A core part of aoe and single target dps rotation.
Corpse Shield - Pretty awesome cooldown, take only 10% of normal damage for the next 10 seconds on 1 minute cooldown. There's a small risk of killing your pet but play well with cooldowns and healers and I can see us being picked for the new soaking jobs.
Gravitational Pull - Artifact trait, Death Grip does 50% snare 6 second duration.

A lot of things in this list, which might not make every raid boss or pvp fight, but they exist and are options.

I don't doubt that DPS Dks will play Blood with DPS gear on some random boss just for grip.

I do doubt that will happen. Considering presences are removed, theres no way to turn off threat as blood spec anymore, and the dps loss for being tank spec and the fact gorefiends is a 3 minute cooldown without a talent.
There's no way stacking blood dks for grips will be viable.

[RuneDK]

I don't doubt that DPS Dks will play Blood with DPS gear on some random boss just for grip.

That will suck....but I agree 100% to this. My current guild who I no longer play with basically said if Grip is needed for any fights the DKs will be playing blood in DPS gear.

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I do doubt that will happen. Considering presences are removed, theres no way to turn off threat as blood spec anymore, and the dps loss for being tank spec and the fact gorefiends is a 3 minute cooldown without a talent.
There's no way stacking blood dks for grips will be viable.

Tank DPS is pretty solid in the beta...so it's certainly a possibility.

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long story short: start the expansion strong as hell, then fall behind as patchs go. But my bet is that is changing a bit at least, for legion.

I an optimistic with frost this expansion. The change to crit being worthwhile is nice. Will obviously have to see how the artifact changes on top of set bonuses for tiers after the first one. However, I see Frost possibly being a very strong spec throughout the expansion right now.

[Ealyssa]

I don't doubt that DPS Dks will play Blood with DPS gear on some random boss just for grip.

Blood doesn't have any way to reduce their threat in Legion. That just isn't an option.

[Fenrkyr]

I do doubt that will happen. Considering presences are removed, theres no way to turn off threat as blood spec anymore, and the dps loss for being tank spec and the fact gorefiends is a 3 minute cooldown without a talent.
There's no way stacking blood dks for grips will be viable.

If tank DPS ends up being ~80% of regular non-mage DPS, and the fight is difficult enough with spread adds, I won't be surprised to see blood in a DPS role.

That is assuming they continue to design fights requiring add control and burst DPS, which may not be too common anymore.

[Sinzaram]

If tank DPS ends up being ~80% of regular non-mage DPS, and the fight is difficult enough with spread adds, I won't be surprised to see blood in a DPS role.

That is assuming they continue to design fights requiring add control and burst DPS, which may not be too common anymore.

But as I stated above,

theres no way to turn off threat as blood spec anymore

So unless you want to train the real tanks to taunt on cooldown, which would result in DRs and broken tank swaps on fights that require them. And taunting aoe packs is just plain impossible (unless monk statue is still a thing).

The whole point is blood for grips, but when you get aggro from all the adds and become a 3rd tank, you might as well just be a third tank and position the mobs as a tank should?

[Raiju]

So unless you want to train the real tanks to taunt on cooldown, which would result in DRs and broken tank swaps on fights that require them. And taunting aoe packs is just plain impossible (unless monk statue is still a thing).

The whole point is blood for grips, but when you get aggro from all the adds and become a 3rd tank, you might as well just be a third tank and position the mobs as a tank should?

If the dps tank switches at all, does less than 110% of their dps, or is buffered by threat reductions / threat increasers on the actual tanks this is nonissue.

You also seem to misunderstand the whole point of grip in raids - it's to bring together adds that don't automatically stack up nicely. Generally casters

[Deleted]

Upper mid-tier I would say.

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Volatile Shielding - A talent that boosts AMS making 25% damage absorbed be returned to everything in aoe, this might have some neat cheesing uses in raids or CMs maybe.

Nah. Amount absorbed is capped by your max HP. So if you had 200k shield and fully absorbed w/e you would return 25% of it as dmg split between targets. So 50k that's split among targets around you. With 5 targets that's some silly 10k per target given 200k absorb.

In other words it's piss poor :P

[Fynzie]

Warrior was all but Ok during wod

[Deleted]

I guess DKs will rely purely on damage in Legion, since they lost both Chilblains and Gorefiend's Grasp.

Chilblains is still around, granted it's has a duration now, but if a slow is needed they can do it.

[Kronik85]

I haven't played the game seriously since WoTLK (and even then, I can't remember past DKs being SUPER overpowered at the start)

Looking at level 100 DPS charts right now DK seems to consistently be at the bottom. Since vanilla, I've found that history is typically pretty accurate (For example, warrior tanks always being OK. Mages / Locks / Rogues topping DPS, etc)

So can I expect DK DPS to be low-tier DPS for legion or is the current state of them kind of an outlier?

Good on progression in every tier we've been eligible for. We aren't OP tier like Rogues, Mages and Locks occasionally get to enjoy but we've always been good.

[Piz813]

I guess DKs will rely purely on damage in Legion, since they lost both Chilblains and Gorefiend's Grasp.

Sad and true... we lost out utility... I can't recall off top the bosses but some guilds stacked DKs during world first progression. Think it was in cata?

Historically, we started STRONG then fizzle out in the second and final tier of a xpac
Wrath cata, and MoP. Not so much now in wod though. My current guild utilizes us on MManny and M Archie. We usually run 4 cause all the rogues and wind walkers vanished.

My advice to the OP and all of us in general is to get on the PTR since God forbid current subs get a beta key, and practice practice PRACTICE. Find which special you enjoy and set out to master it and be ahead of the curve. We need to bring the pain more then ever soon since we will just be a DPS with no gorefiends...

UH is getting all the praise right now but personally I do better as frost on the PTR so it's all preference.

0.02

[0verdose]

The only reason why dks were needed in WoD was because of our mass grip. Our dps is average at best. We can't keep up with rogues, mages, hunters etc. The only way to keep up with other classes is to play unholy and breath, but our dmg falls off hard over the period of the fight.