Pre-Patch Mage Spec

[stevenho]

Yes, Kindling is the best talant, and it's possibilities extend with crit increase.

Unfortunately kindling is worth 0 DPS because you will be delaying it for ring.

[Deleted]

You should have said you were on AOE dummies because Fire auto-AOEs a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if it still pulls ahead though with so crappy the conservation phases of Arcane are. Frost I'm not sure, people might not know how to play properly (Arcane has a small chance we need a new rotation but not very likely).

We had a few days without any patch on the PTR/Beta and I suspect we might get something on mages.

The delay coincides with the PTR release so that might indicate something.

[Sturmcantor]

I was finding Fire to do about 90k single target in pretty much BiS gear (still wearing my live haste chants and w/out Time Warp though). Class trink/Sandman's vs Sandman's/DSI MWF was pretty close to equal single target, except that class trink goes OOM much faster.

Arcane was doing about 80k single target w/ Overpowered for me.

This was before the most recent set of changes.

[Maverixx]

Unfortunately kindling is worth 0 DPS because you will be delaying it for ring.

Well, that depends on guild you play in. I managed to down every even combustion to 12-15 seconds before ring. If it's not crucial for a raid tto executte ring on cooldown, then i don't see any problem to delay ring for that window.

You should have said you were on AOE dummies because Fire auto-AOEs a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if it still pulls ahead though with so crappy the conservation phases of Arcane are. Frost I'm not sure, people might not know how to play properly (Arcane has a small chance we need a new rotation but not very likely).

We had a few days without any patch on the PTR/Beta and I suspect we might get something on mages.

The delay coincides with the PTR release so that might indicate something.

It's actually not that much. As I told, it's about minus 15k DPS overall. With low mastery, ignite cleave do low amount of damage. Living Bomb and Flamestrike in conter do A LOT more damage then ignite, so I don't see any problem.

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I was finding Fire to do about 90k single target in pretty much BiS gear (still wearing my live haste chants and w/out Time Warp though). Class trink/Sandman's vs Sandman's/DSI MWF was pretty close to equal single target, except that class trink goes OOM much faster.

Arcane was doing about 80k single target w/ Overpowered for me.

This was before the most recent set of changes.

Shadowmoon Insignia was nerfed to the ground as other HFC trinkets were. Crafed alchemy stone is much better, try it, if you don't want to use Sandman or arch-trinket.
I assume you were fighting major city dummy? Mind the world lag =)

[Deleted]

Without testing , only based on my impression ingame, frost seems more safe for the pre patch. Take it from one who have mained mage from classic untill cata, from where it has been a dear alt (with legendary cloak and ring) so I still play it a lot, even when having another main

[Yuka69]

I have question , when you play with Rune of Power, use One stack on combustion, and after On CD next stack ? or you play with Incanter's flow ?
You keep all combustion with Sandman's pouch or you use on RIng if Trinket no proc ?

Pyromaniac / Conflagration or Firestarter ?

[Sturmcantor]

Shadowmoon Insignia was nerfed to the ground as other HFC trinkets were. Crafed alchemy stone is much better, try it, if you don't want to use Sandman or arch-trinket.
I assume you were fighting major city dummy? Mind the world lag =)

I logged my tests - garrison dummies.

This is why I'm very skeptical of the numbers you are claiming: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=5 (class trink/sandman's)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=3 (DSI/sandman's)

Note how in the first log over 4:47 I'm doing 167k on 3 targets. Only 54% of that is on the main target. Actual ST dps is a little higher than 54% of 157k b/c 3 way split of ring outweighs the extra ring dmg from cleave.

On live I can do substantially more ST dps than 90kish w/ raid buffs and TW, so not a 15k nerf.

Feel free to provide logs showing you doing 160k dps w/ 90% primary target dmg as fire.

[stevenho]

Well, that depends on guild you play in. I managed to down every even combustion to 12-15 seconds before ring. If it's not crucial for a raid tto executte ring on cooldown, then i don't see any problem to delay ring for that window.

Convincing the guild to wait for my combustion to become available? Yeah, right

It's actually not that much. As I told, it's about minus 15k DPS overall. With low mastery, ignite cleave do low amount of damage. Living Bomb and Flamestrike in conter do A LOT more damage then ignite, so I don't see any problem.

You are saying weird things that make no sense. Its time you show us your logs or videos.

[Deleted]

Well, that depends on guild you play in. I managed to down every even combustion to 12-15 seconds before ring. If it's not crucial for a raid tto executte ring on cooldown, then i don't see any problem to delay ring for that window.

Remember that Combustion's CD is increased to 120s with Legion/prepatch instead of 90s (with glyph) on live realms.
You would need 60 crits per minute or 1 crit per second to reduce Legion Combustion to 60s with Kindling, use it on CD and do it again so that CB is ready for the 2. ring. GL

[Sturmcantor]

My finding running with Conflag/Flame On/Rune/UM/Kindling with about 42% crit was that Combustion ended up on an ~80s cd.

[Maverixx]

Convincing the guild to wait for my combustion to become available? Yeah, right



You are saying weird things that make no sense. Its time you show us your logs or videos.

On consistant 2-3 target cleeve, yeah, ignite should be better, but in AOE flamestrike or living bomb will deal MUCH more DPS, it's not non-sence, it's common sense and need no proof in logs (remember, we're talking about 19-20% mastery as I have in my build)

And sorry for misleading. It's true that i miscalculated things. It's not -15k DPS as I told, it's -33k (2 dummies). Here's log https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done (not advanced, advanced will be soon, forgot to enable it, so did to enable unstable magic in talent row)
Truth to be told, I recorded this log without ToSW because of mana issues, but it'll be about 15-20k DPS increase so.... It still will be 130k DPS with 202ms world lag, don't forget about it.

[Sturmcantor]

What trinket is that Int proc? Alchemy? Also, you should avoid testing dps while holding ring off cd for 45s - in an actual raid that won't commonly happen.

While I agree that ToSW/LB are very powerful for AoE, outside of trash we don't see sustained AoE in any fight this tier except HFA and maybe Xhul. I guess padding on Iskar also.

[stevenho]

On consistant 2-3 target cleeve, yeah, ignite should be better, but in AOE flamestrike or living bomb will deal MUCH more DPS, it's not non-sence, it's common sense and need no proof in logs (remember, we're talking about 19-20% mastery as I have in my build)

And sorry for misleading. It's true that i miscalculated things. It's not -15k DPS as I told, it's -33k (2 dummies). Here's log https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done (not advanced, advanced will be soon, forgot to enable it, so did to enable unstable magic in talent row)
Truth to be told, I recorded this log without ToSW because of mana issues, but it'll be about 15-20k DPS increase so.... It still will be 130k DPS with 202ms world lag, don't forget about it.

Now this looks quite close to what I'm getting on the PTR.
Second target cleave close to 30% so 50k DPS, not 15. Ignite doing over 40% damage.
Pretty much the same results as I'm getting, but I'm playing cinderstorm and ringing on CD.

Also you must have recorded quite a few logs to be able to show one with 80% icarus uptime

[Sturmcantor]

Now this looks quite close to what I'm getting on the PTR.
Second target cleave close to 30% so 50k DPS, not 15. Ignite doing over 40% damage.
Pretty much the same results as I'm getting, but I'm playing cinderstorm and ringing on CD.

Also you must have recorded quite a few logs to be able to show one with 80% icarus uptime

Also 50% weapon chant uptime and 84% crit rate on pyro. So I think adjusting for ring usage and RNG that lines up with what I was seeing fairly well.

[Maverixx]

Now this looks quite close to what I'm getting on the PTR.
Second target cleave close to 30% so 50k DPS, not 15. Ignite doing over 40% damage.
Pretty much the same results as I'm getting, but I'm playing cinderstorm and ringing on CD.

Also you must have recorded quite a few logs to be able to show one with 80% icarus uptime

Pure proc =) And not -50k, it's -33k, because ring explosion splited evenly. It's just burst phase ignite, that's all.

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Also 50% weapon chant uptime and 84% crit rate on pyro. So I think adjusting for ring usage and RNG that lines up with what I was seeing fairly well.

Worth to mention, it's mastery enchant, not a crit one, so there'll be about 5k DPS increase with critbased enchant.
84% crit rate of pyro was because of natural 50%+ crit rate and 3 combustion phases.

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What trinket is that Int proc? Alchemy? Also, you should avoid testing dps while holding ring off cd for 45s - in an actual raid that won't commonly happen.

While I agree that ToSW/LB are very powerful for AoE, outside of trash we don't see sustained AoE in any fight this tier except HFA and maybe Xhul. I guess padding on Iskar also.

ToSW is a aprox. 10% DPS increase with Flamepatch, which is the only useful talent is row for solo-DPS on PTR. Iskar and other HFC trinkets were nerfed to the ground. It's because (I think) of new itemization system that comes with prepatch and applies on HFC (titanforged items). Int proc is alchemy trinket. It's procs for 2k intelect against 1.2k of Shadowmoon, so yeah...
Well, holding ring for 45 secs is a bad idea, I agree, but it can be applied on Archimonde encounter where 3rd (and 2nd in some cases) ring is on hold till 3 infenal spawn (for us at least).
In my opinion Cinderstorm and Meteor is completely useless on solo-target. Yes, we can choose cinderstorm for some burst-AOE on a very huge pack of mobs, and it might be a DPS increase, but why do we do so? We already have flamestrike which is more consistant, less weird and applies ignite too. Meteor's damage still splits evenly among all effected targets, so no AOE synergy too. The only option's left is Kindling, which will be top talent for entire Legion for sure.

[stevenho]

Pure proc =) And not -50k, it's -33k, because ring explosion splited evenly.

Yeah I can show you a log with 30% Icarus uptime. Pure proc.
As for ring, you are cleaving for 20% damage before explosion so its not -33, its much more.

Worth to mention, it's mastery enchant, not a crit one, so there'll be about 5k DPS increase with critbased enchant.

And you calculated this how exactly?

ToSW is a aprox. 10% DPS increase with Flamepatch,

Again - how exactly did you calculate this? In my test TOSW flamestrike+flamepatch is ~7-8% DAMAGE TOTAL, not even going into whether it is an increase at all over other trinket+talent combinations.

[Sylvaeres]

I can't believe there was an entire discussion on here about holding the ring just so the mage can take Kindling. What the hell?

[Deleted]

I can't believe there was an entire discussion on here about holding the ring just so the mage can take Kindling. What the hell?

It might make strategical sense if they have more than 3 mages.

[Sylvaeres]

It might make strategical sense if they have more than 3 mages.

Possibly. It's not unlikely for a raid group to have that many. Mine has up to 6 mages depending on who shows up. But that would also require all mages to have roughly the same amount of crits per use of combustion

[stevenho]

Delaying every single ring for combustion will almost certainly result in 1 less ring on longer fights, making it not worth it for most groups.