Will We See Difficult Dungeons on Launch?

[Ebalina]

Some dps specs didn't have 10 second cooldowns. If you were so unlucky to get 2 or even all three of your dpsers in the group that either had no interrupt or it was on a 45 sec cd you were screwed.

Basically the class design for the expansion was imbalanced and wasn't properly designed. Much of this was influenced by the state of pvp and raiding. Why give shadow priests shorter interrupts when someone else in your 3's comp or 10 man raid can interrupt for them? 5 man pve content got the short end of the design stick when it came down to this.

Oh please........ just no.
You can interupt with fears/stuns/knockbacks and what have you, not just your single interupt.......

[ThatsOurEric]

Only in the beginning. Once people geared up and get used to the specifics for taking down the boss,
you'll see the overall "difficulty" of the encounter will wane greatly.

From being overall "hard" or "tough", you'll eventually get "simple, but watch out for X."

[Pantalaimon]

Oh please........ just no.
You can interupt with fears/stuns/knockbacks and what have you, not just your single interupt.......

Not on the vast majority of bosses, which was the whole point of my post. Next time read everything before you post.

The fact still stands that group comps were vastly undertuned or overtuned for heavy interrupt encounters. As much as I liked the non nerfed fights it did have to happen to some degree otherwise you pretty much had to auto boot someone if you didn't over gear those specific fights and you were short on dpsers that had real interrupts.

[Ebalina]

Not on the vast majority of bosses, which was the whole point of my post. Next time read everything before you post.

The fact still stands that group comps were vastly undertuned or overtuned for heavy interrupt encounters. As much as I liked the non nerfed fights it did have to happen to some degree otherwise you pretty much had to auto boot someone if you didn't over gear those specific fights and you were short on dpsers that had real interrupts.

I never had to boot any one.
I think you need to reconsider the way you play the game or the people you surround your self with.
5man dungeons do not need over-gearing or class stacking boss mechanics are not hard never were never will be not even challenge modes (maybe in Legion with mythic 12+ some class stack and gearing will be needed but not before that) and here we are talking about heroic dungeons a snore fest.

[PenguinChan]

Man, it's strange reading people finally recite Cataclysm dungeons as not being that hard.

Granted, a lot of them probably are also people who never played them when they actually were relevant and not nerfed. They weren't hard for people who actually knew what to do, but anyone with competence knows a lot of RDF people were a crap shoot. Half the time you had to teach someone the mechanics, while also dealing with people who just refused to learn. And the troll dungeons were a nightmare until after all the newbies or bad players stopped queuing into them. But yes, with proper players and actual decent skill the dungeons in Cataclysm were enjoyable and provided a good experience.

I doubt Legion will do this though.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

No we will not. The dungeons are a joke, even the 1st few mythic levels are a joke. If you want difficult PvE content then either do Mythic raiding with a guild or high lvl mythic dungeons also with a guild.

[PenguinChan]

No we will not. The dungeons are a joke, even the 1st few mythic levels are a joke. If you want difficult PvE content then either do Mythic raiding with a guild or high lvl mythic dungeons also with a guild.

It's really unfortunate that you need to raid to do difficult content. I mean really, this isn't a good thing.

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Not on beta but I doubt heroics will be any different than WoD difficulty. Mythic+ without the keystone challenges will probably be about as easy as WoD mythics, but will actually be harder since we probably won't get Mirror of the Blademaster like trinkets to aoe zerg everything down at launch.

As for the cata heroics I really enjoyed them too. However, while there was small room for error contributing to making the 5 mans more challenging (such as not letting the worm hit you in Stonecore since it would one shot you) enough of the challenge was somewhat arbitrary as it was only hard if you had a bad comp. The naga boss & especially the first boss in SFK were examples of this. Both bosses had many interruptable abilities that needed to be interrupted or they would do massive damage to the tank, the group, or heal the boss. Usually groups would just coordinate who interrupted what, but rarely you would have groups that had 2 or even 3 dps specs that had no reliable short interrupts such as spriests, boomkins, and one of the hunter specs (forget which one). It was rare to be in a group like that, but when it happened the fights would be *close* to impossible unless the group flat out outgeared the encounter. This is partially why they removed the healing ability from the boss in SFK specifically. The tank could handle one of the damaging abilities, but with a group lacking many interrupts the heal on top of it made the groups attempts laugh worthy (I'm sure some of you remember runs where the boss healed 3 or more times before dying).

Some WoD heroics were challenging for a few day until people learned the fight and got gear. Legion heroics are MoP type of difficulty, there's literally 0 challenge. Take a group of mythic geared players and try doing a wod dungeon on the live servers, thats exactly how legion heroics feel. What's the point of calling them heroic if they're just as easy if not easier (due to scaling) than normal mode?

[ComputerNerd]

I agree with the idea that at least to some extent, difficulty should be something you seek if you want it.
If you want to put in the effort in the content, then why is actually seeking it too difficult.
It isn't.

[Celestraza]

I don't get the point of this discussion at all.

Are you asking if the difficulty of the entry dungeons (so normal/heroic) in Legion will be difficult for those with appropiate itemlevel?
Because the obvious answer to this is: No.

In the past there have been entry dungeons which were overtuned for a large part of the populace. Cataclysm comes to mind. A lot of players were not used to oneshot mechanics and were not used to the fact that stuns/interupts/CC could be vital. My personal favorite example however is not Cata but Hall of Reflection (WotLK).
The massive amount of uproar from the community on the difficulty of this dungeon was enormous, just seeing forums overflow with tears was hilarious.
I remember having my fair share of deaths in there but I did enjoy the dungeon quite a bit and in due time with gear/experience even HoR became obsolete for even the more casual players but I can fairly say that initially it may have been overtuned.

Do I think the Legion dungeons entry will be as hard as HoR?
Nowhere close. Because that is not the point of entry dungeons and raids. Blizzard has made sure since the lessons of Cata to make entry content very accesible (look at LFR) and making an entry dungeon like HoR does not fit this philosophy.

Let the entry dungeons be for people that are playing the game casually and let mythic+ be the dungeons for those looking for challenge.

[Yizu]

My pugging experience in beta since i got in last week

I got geared for mythic dungeons 830 in a day after dinging 110, just spamming heroic dungeons as heals, heroic is pretty faceroll like normal.

Mythic+0 is pretty easy as well, already finished 8 of them last week and 8 this week and I heal them no problem with 0 arp/825 relic on my holy staff. I feel like Cata heroics on release even has a higher difficulty, in Cata i remember tanks can die in 2 gcd, on legion mythic+0 tanks can pretty much take care of themselves its pretty stupid, you really only have to care about dps standing in shit. Mythic+0 have no 1 shot mechanics, if you died its 100% because u took damage from another mechanic before that, damage is big but slow, can pretty much heal anyone who fks up.

Are beta pugs better in general because they can invest more time in the game? Probably.

I just think Mythic+0 feeling like a heroic dungeon is Blizz sneaky way of making LFD random queues irrelevant GJ blizz!

[Coldvibes]

My experience with Mythic dungeons on Beta is that if you have 1-2 overgeared players in a pug setting they're pretty faceroll. In a guild group even up to 3+ is faceroll.

[orgonutil]

In launch and until raids open we will have normal, heroics and mythic 0. Mythic 0 are easier than cata heroics, i am doing mythic +4 sucefully in 840 ilvl at beta. Things that can kill you actually are easier to see and you have more time to react too

[Krazzorx]

It depends what your role is and how many pugs you are doing it with. Way too many DH "tanks" who don't have a clue what they are doing on beta. Can't imagine live.

Mythic+ when it opens renders this discussion moot. It basically scales in difficulty infinitely.

[Ammanas]

I've done a lot of dungeons in the beta. Only high levels of mythic+ will be remotely difficult.

Normal: Not even worth doing at 110. The ilvl of drops (805) is lower than the required ilvl for heroic (810). Everyone will just make groups manually and start with heroics, bypassing the groupfinder.

Heroic: Super easy/boring. You don't have to actually know the mechanics at all.

Mythic 0-5: Easy. Can be somewhat challenging if you have very low ilvl and know 0 boss mechanics. Once you have gear somewhat close to the relevant ilvl and know basic mechanics they are not hard.

Mythic 6+: These can get hard, mainly due to the extra effect on the keystones. Also at current levels of gear the stacking % hp and damage adds up quite a lot. I would say any 3 prop is actually very challenging right now with 855-860 gear. Especially since they fixed the Ley Infusion buff. Also there is great variance in the mods, some mod/dungeon combinations are much harder than others. IE: Bolstering can be very difficult, Teeming is hardly noticeable.

Eventually with raid gear the stacking HP/DMG will be canceled out more, but I can actually foresee 4-5+ property runs staying challenging throughout the expansion. As long as the % scaling keeps up with the scaling from gear reasonably. Right now for me at ~860 ilvl, a lot of the mechanics are oneshots or very close to it in Mythic 6+.

Oh, and the trash is generally harder than the bosses due to things like Bolstering. Most of the boss mechanics are just as simple as they are on Heroic, except they will wipe you if you don't do them correctly instead of being able to ignore it.

[clevin]

Street has no real credibility given what he said about Cata heroics at the time.

The problem with them was that they were hard *for random groups* and for people who started in Wrath. Cats heroics were like TBC - you needed to do more than your core role and healers were weak compared to Wrath, so DPS and tanks had to watch the damage they took and perhaps self-heal.

The problem was that a lots of people had never had to do any of this - they started in Wrath which didn't require any of this. Now, if you were in a guild group? Not an issue. But LFG brought 5 people together randomly and the 5 mans were tuned as if you were a coordinated group. Random matchmaking works against challenge in the content where it's used because you aren't choosing your comps, you aren't playing with ppl who are understanding of a mistake, etc.

[BiggestNoob]

WoW has never had hard dungeons, let's be honest.

[Caliph]

the problem I had with cata dungeons at launch was the que times for dps and the mana issues for healing. On my priest I had to sit after every pull and of course there were dummies who insisted on pulling quickly, without cc, and were gung ho. Otherwise with consideration and planning the dungeons were good.

[Aphrel]

When Cata launched regular dungeons posed challenges, the Heroics were deemed as "impossible" until blizzard tuned some of the fights for the majority.

To the Beta testers could you compare the new dungeons to the dungeons that came out in Cata?

Everything on beta is a joke. Hcs are as easy as the mop heroics was and mythic dungeons still easier to complete than any cm content weve had be4. You will have to wait until mythic+ is opened (opens when raids does) a few weeks into the expansion be4 you see any difficult dungeon content.

Ofc if you consider cata heroics "impossible" then im not sure what you will think of the new content but you probobly dont wanna do any mythic+ on higher lvls as they are considerably harder than cataheroics ever was.

[Deleted]

in TBC if you were a tank that didn't have close to the def cap of 490 you be hard to heal and usually cause a wipe, it made heroics difficult because of the gear check.

Cata dungeons were not hard even in blues, it were hard if you didn't know how the mechanics worked and how to move your ass (like it should be).
Most of the mechaanics were piss easy and you needed only to move away from a place. Like the first boss of Stonecore, it was considered the HARDEST boss ever by many people (at the start) just because people couldn't avoid the underground charge that it was so slow that I cried everytime I saw someone dieing.

Only maybe hard thing to avoid were the Super-mario-phase before the ship in Deadmines HC.
Conclusion? Everything is difficult if you don't follow the mechanics/tactics, but people prefer to blame the game instead of admitting they are just bad and need to get better/or make any effort.


Regarding TBC, the cap of 490 (it was 460?) to defence was needed because before that cap you could be critically hitted by mobs in heroics....and a critical hit in heroics were in most case certain death.

It seems mythics+ are a nice addition and they make dungeons revelant again