The politics of anger

[Theodarzna]

Who will pick up the pieces from western society? Africa? India? China? They all got equally huge problems themselves. So will the whole world implode? New political systems etc? Perhaps Marx was right all this time.

Nobody? Unlike Fukuyama I do not believe we are at the "End of History," or that anyone has the "Last and Final," system.

My calls is likely decline, insularity and globalization receding. As it historically has. This isn't the first time big chunks of the world have all been integrated into some big trade economy.

The problem is the thoughts of Fukuyama itself are a problem, once you believe you have the Last and Final social organisation you become paralysed in the face of inevitable problems, and also the problems that solutions to previous problems cause. In general complex societies eventually crumble into themselves as the complexity becomes unsustainable and cannot move forward any further.

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Never said immigrants lacked education. I said many (at least here) can't even speak the language. Surely you'd rather hire the person fluent in the local language. The people going to college for art history majors are, to say the least, not very bright.

Immigrants are brought in economically just to keep wages low and property values high.

Since its the working class who suffers from this and not the professional class, nobody gives a shit, of course until the working class strikes back.

[Bollocks]

Nobody? Unlike Fukuyama I do not believe we are at the "End of History," or that anyone has the "Last and Final," system.

My calls is likely decline, insularity and globalization receding. As it historically has. This isn't the first time big chunks of the world have all been integrated into some big trade economy.

The problem is the thoughts of Fukuyama itself are a problem, once you believe you have the Last and Final social organisation you become paralysed in the face of inevitable problems, and also the problems that solutions to previous problems cause. In general complex societies eventually crumble into themselves as the complexity becomes unsustainable and cannot move forward any further.

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Immigrants are brought in economically just to keep wages low and property values high.

Since its the working class who suffers from this and not the professional class, nobody gives a shit, of course until the working class strikes back.

What this is false, US native people wages are not being down, even the working class of native americans are not affected by it (Unless you consider a <5% significant) . The most affected ones are the own immigrants whose wages are being kept down.

[Theodarzna]

I like how you cited both resource consumption and birth rate decline as evidence of impending doom. As birth rates decline and the population begins to shrink, resources limitations will obviously be less of a problem. Of course, birth rates are only low in the Western world, the developing world is currently seeing skyrocketing population growth, but as these people use far fewer resources than the average Westerner, this isn't really anything to panic about.

Both are over all bad things. Birth rate decline is bad for our current societies that depend on consumers, tax payers and generally young people to sustain ourselves. Actually about 97% of all people live in countries with sub-replacement rate fertility, something about modernity just kills it. The other problem is our generous welfare states depend on young tax payers and unfortunately we are running out of places to farm labours from, I mean as more countries get integrated into the World System those countries tank in the baby department and they don't send immigrants.

Also the wealth and prosperity depends on growth, if nobody is around to buy things, things aren't made and people aren't hired.

[Krille]

Nobody? Unlike Fukuyama I do not believe we are at the "End of History," or that anyone has the "Last and Final," system.

My calls is likely decline, insularity and globalization receding. As it historically has. This isn't the first time big chunks of the world have all been integrated into some big trade economy.

The problem is the thoughts of Fukuyama itself are a problem, once you believe you have the Last and Final social organisation you become paralysed in the face of inevitable problems, and also the problems that solutions to previous problems cause. In general complex societies eventually crumble into themselves as the complexity becomes unsustainable and cannot move forward any further.

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Immigrants are brought in economically just to keep wages low and property values high.

Since its the working class who suffers from this and not the professional class, nobody gives a shit, of course until the working class strikes back.

I think even the lowest class of humans will realize that their destructive behaviour might ruin their way of living and adapt. I'm sorry it's like that in the US, but we do have unions that make sure that every employee have the same wage as the other, the only difference is experience. It's illegal to hire immigrants cheaply unless you do it "private". But i can see it being a problem in many other countries. But with all the thoughts of our doom going around, let's remember we've got one of the bigger humanitarian disasters since world war two going on atm. When/If it settles, i'm sure we'll prosper again.

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With my 'worthless' degree, I'm running a gallery and live a block from one the the most gorgeous beaches in America.

Not bright of me I guess, but don't let that stop you from being condescending.

It's got to do with context. In my university we've got a huge amount of people studying art degrees. And most of the people i've met are just there to drink alcohol and party. I study a master in management, communication and IT, it's not going to HELP anyone but myself looking at other alumnis.

[Theodarzna]

I think even the lowest class of humans will realize that their destructive behaviour might ruin their way of living and adapt. I'm sorry it's like that in the US, but we do have unions that make sure that every employee have the same wage as the other, the only difference is experience. It's illegal to hire immigrants cheaply unless you do it "private". But i can see it being a problem in many other countries. But with all the thoughts of our doom going around, let's remember we've got one of the bigger humanitarian disasters since world war two going on atm. When/If it settles, i'm sure we'll prosper again.

Peoples behaviour is a feature not a bug, the lower class isn't being destructive but reacting as a wounded bear does when cornered.

I am not an optimist, this is but a prelude of disaster to come. Its never ONE disaster that undoes a civilisation, its the accumulation of disasters. Its the trickling, slow bleed. Yes the migrant crisis seems manageable now, and up front it may seem so but over time it will likely bleed Europe dry. And its just ONE problem, others will be the obvious ones of employing people, climate change, OTHER refugee crisis' that will likely happen as more of the world falls into hard times because of the previous. Maintaining expensive security states to prevent terrorism, the increasing boldness of say groups like ISIS, and of course we still are overdue for a big world wide pandemic. Even Juncker has said Europe's good days are most likely behind it, the good will never return.

Societies crumble from the build up of problems. Any ONE problem is tractable, all of them together are not.

Finally, for the Working Class, they have adapted, they have unsheathed a terrible and swift sword of vengeance and wield it against the masters. The annihilation of the working class and the blighting of these regions was taking place either way. What you want is for them to play a hopeless game, I suspect they have caught on to the real truth of how you win a game, you rewrite its rules.

[unfilteredJW]

It's got to do with context. In my university we've got a huge amount of people studying art degrees. And most of the people i've met are just there to drink alcohol and party. I study a master in management, communication and IT, it's not going to HELP anyone but myself looking at other alumnis.

Instead of looking down your nose at them from your IT/Business/Boring tower, maybe learn to balance fun and study yourself. Context doesn't matter when you come out swinging using words like 'worthless', especially since I can learn most of your course load using Google. Though the irony is appreciated.

[Krille]

Peoples behaviour is a feature not a bug, the lower class isn't being destructive but reacting as a wounded bear does when cornered.

I am not an optimist, this is but a prelude of disaster to come. Its never ONE disaster that undoes a civilisation, its the accumulation of disasters. Its the trickling, slow bleed. Yes the migrant crisis seems manageable now, and up front it may seem so but over time it will likely bleed Europe dry. And its just ONE problem, others will be the obvious ones of employing people, climate change, OTHER refugee crisis' that will likely happen as more of the world falls into hard times because of the previous. Maintaining expensive security states to prevent terrorism, the increasing boldness of say groups like ISIS, and of course we still are overdue for a big world wide pandemic. Even Juncker has said Europe's good days are most likely behind it, the good will never return.

Societies crumble from the build up of problems. Any ONE problem is tractable, all of them together are not.

Finally, for the Working Class, they have adapted, they have unsheathed a terrible and swift sword of vengeance and wield it against the masters. The annihilation of the working class and the blighting of these regions was taking place either way. What you want is for them to play a hopeless game, I suspect they have caught on to the real truth of how you win a game, you rewrite its rules.

You don't have to tell me you're not an optimist. I see your points and acknowledge them. I just think it's very difficult to predict anything and i'm hesitant to do so. I personally believe that the EU will manage to hold the remaining member states in check. Whether that's good or bad is impossible to tell, Sweden (where i'm from) have always been skeptic of the EU, we kept our currency and we sided with Britain on many important aspects of the EU. Now that they're gone we have no ally. But our economy is still growing so i'm not worried as a Swede, if i were a greek or any southern citizen of Europe i'd be more worried. Since they've had issues for a while now and likely the first to fail.

[Theodarzna]

You don't have to tell me you're not an optimist. I see your points and acknowledge them. I just think it's very difficult to predict anything and i'm hesitant to do so. I personally believe that the EU will manage to hold the remaining member states in check. Whether that's good or bad is impossible to tell, Sweden (where i'm from) have always been skeptic of the EU, we kept our currency and we sided with Britain on many important aspects of the EU. Now that they're gone we have no ally. But our economy is still growing so i'm not worried as a Swede, if i were a greek or any southern citizen of Europe i'd be more worried. Since they've had issues for a while now and likely the first to fail.

History illustrates that social decay is a general pattern, I just don't think we can outrun death, Europe or the United States or a theoretical Global Civilisation.

You do not think its difficult if your willing to predict prosperity returning.

[Krille]

History illustrates that social decay is a general pattern, I just don't think we can outrun death, Europe or the United States or a theoretical Global Civilisation.

You do not think its difficult if your willing to predict prosperity returning.

We do still prosper as a nation. But as a collective in the EU we do not. Well, looking at pure facts (numbers etc) we're doing fine and southern Europe is not. So that's pretty much grounded in "loose" facts. While saying that our civilisation will cease to exist, especially based on old theories, is just speculating.

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Instead of looking down your nose at them from your IT/Business/Boring tower, maybe learn to balance fun and study yourself. Context doesn't matter when you come out swinging using words like 'worthless', especially since I can learn most of your course load using Google. Though the irony is appreciated.

You can learn lots of things on Google, doesn't mean you'd fully understand it.

[I Push Buttons]

History illustrates that social decay is a general pattern, I just don't think we can outrun death, Europe or the United States or a theoretical Global Civilisation.

You do not think its difficult if your willing to predict prosperity returning.

History, although important in the study of human nature in general, is irrelevant to modern trends.

There has quite literally never been anything similar to the circumstances of today... So to argue anything in the history of humankind is an indicator of anything of significance to come today is quite literally absurd. It makes your entire argument 100% bullshit.

[Theodarzna]

We do still prosper as a nation. But as a collective in the EU we do not. Well, looking at pure facts (numbers etc) we're doing fine and southern Europe is not. So that's pretty much grounded in "loose" facts. While saying that our civilisation will cease to exist, especially based on old theories, is just speculating.

Cease? No, but it will fade and diminish. Northern European fertility is also really bad, though the Southern half of the EU is worse. And while some might say "BUT IMMIGRANTS!" immigrants from were? Also immigrants tend to drop their fertility rates pretty quickly so you have never ending need for them, which will be hard to come by as more and more of the world goes below 2.1.

Tis' not an "old theory," as in its outdated, I just notice we aren't the first global culture or vastly integrated culture across many peoples and many nations and vast distances based on trade, we will likely not be the last one, and IMHO its the height of hubris to assume we are the FINAL one.

[Tijuana]

I mean, it's not like canadians are using it for anything.

They must not like it up there, they are all living right on our border, as if our awesome will spill over via osmosis.

[Krille]

Cease? No, but it will fade and diminish. Northern European fertility is also really bad, though the Southern half of the EU is worse. And while some might say "BUT IMMIGRANTS!" immigrants from were? Also immigrants tend to drop their fertility rates pretty quickly so you have never ending need for them, which will be hard to come by as more and more of the world goes below 2.1.

Tis' not an "old theory," as in its outdated, I just notice we aren't the first global culture or vastly integrated culture across many peoples and many nations and vast distances based on trade, we will likely not be the last one, and IMHO its the height of hubris to assume we are the FINAL one.

Hubris or not. There has never been a civilisation as advanced, rich and "connected" as the current one. Making sudden crash highly unlikely, we'll likely predict it.

[Theodarzna]

Hubris or not. There has never been a civilisation as advanced, rich and "connected" as the current one. Making sudden crash highly unlikely, we'll likely predict it.

I don't predict a "Sudden," crash. I predict a cancer patients slow deterioration.

Also, that is exactly what the last one thought, and the one before it.

[Independent voter]

Do you think Trump knew of all these disgruntled voters who were angry over globalization or do you think he stumbled into it.

I was pretty much shocked when he won the Republican nomination for President. If he becomes president I'll be shocked again. Even if Trump doesn't win, we now know there are a huge group of Americans who are angry over globalization and will vote accordingly.

[Macaquerie]

Do you think Trump knew of all these disgruntled voters who were angry over globalization or do you think he stumbled into it.

I was pretty much shocked when he won the Republican nomination for President. If he becomes president I'll be shocked again. Even if Trump doesn't win, we now know there are a huge group of Americans who are angry over globalization and will vote accordingly.

People have been angry about globalization for some time, but it hasn't amounted to much so far because for the most part the people who suffered most from it tended not to have great arguments for why they deserved better than they got.

[Acidbaron]

Due to shadowbanking globalization benefits has stayed most with the corporations and not with the people this is where frustration stems from, if we had actually some international law about tax evasion, which is really what they do and what hurts small companies also.

While some are targeting immigrants, who do take up jobs because they work for less but they are not the problem they are a result of the problem.

[Theodarzna]

Do you think Trump knew of all these disgruntled voters who were angry over globalization or do you think he stumbled into it.

I was pretty much shocked when he won the Republican nomination for President. If he becomes president I'll be shocked again. Even if Trump doesn't win, we now know there are a huge group of Americans who are angry over globalization and will vote accordingly.

I think Trump knew, but what shocks me is its Donald Trump who first figures it out. I'm more shocked that his the first one in a long while to really take hold of this.

I am not at all shocked Trump figured it out, I am just shocked Trump is the first one to try it in a great long while.

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Due to shadowbanking globalization benefits has stayed most with the corporations and not with the people this is where frustration stems from, if we had actually some international law about tax evasion, which is really what they do and what hurts small companies also.

While some are targeting immigrants, who do take up jobs because they work for less but they are not the problem they are a result of the problem.

In the end this is very true. In the US Mexican's take the blame but really its the company's that want them here to depress wages, inflate property value and have a shadow labour force that can be treated like slaves.

More over, many of them were displaced by the ruinous NAFTA which decimated the Mexican farmers livelihood and meant they were going to go somewhere. The livelihood of say a farmer in Oaxaca isn't going to hold against vast Agribusiness. And then you look at these so-called trade deals like TPP/TTIP which are more or less gimmies and give away to shore up the defences of entrenched businesses and institutions.

I just see all these things as FEATURES not BUGS of Globalization. The whole Peace on Earth shpeel was just good slick marketing for the do gooder crowd.

[Deleted]

The article blames globalization but also some mistakes, like the US housing bubble and other global market hiccups..

You are either dense, or plain not grasping the concept of "a mistake", if you use hiccup and The Housing bubble in the same sentance.

[Theodarzna]

You are either dense, or plain not grasping the concept of "a mistake", if you use hiccup and The Housing bubble in the same sentance.

Yeah, a "Hiccup," is a very kind way of putting it, like calling Russian Roulette and "Friendly game of chance."