The Game, Snoop Dogg lead march to LAPD headquarters, meet with Chief Charlie Beck

[GennGreymane]

=) I tend not to bother arguing with your posts due to what I perceive as huge logical fallacies, which typically aren't worth debating. In this case, I have to apologize, 'cause I thought you had neatly crafted a strawman to debunk an argument that no one was making and turns out I was wrong. It was apparently exactly what Sheggaro was saying /shrug. #eggonmyface

He also didnt clarify until later. I was responding to someone else.

[Sky High]

No it doesn't create it per se. It doesn't put guns into the hands of people and makes them sell drugs. But it encourages it.

It gives children, young men etc a sense of acceptance and glorification of the criminal lifestyle.

What you are exposed to, especially when young does affect you.

art imitates life. rap music is more often then not a reflection of people's daily lives. you don't rap as a gangster to BE a gangster, you're a gangster therefore you rap about your life experiences. unless you're nelly, or vanilla ice.

[GennGreymane]

Does metal create satanists?
Is rock and roll the devils music?
Will my friend who listens to country lose his car, his wife, his dog, and go to jail after a bar fight?

[sheggaro]

Even though something much more immersive, visual, and allows you to actually partake (in a virtual setting) in such actions does not create violence? (Video games)

You keep bringing up that analogy, but I don't think it makes much sense to be honest.

Video games are fictional characters in fictional worlds, they're usually not made by Black people for (mainly) Black people. And perhaps most importantly they do not expose children to these very specific cultural problems, i.e the inner city culture, and glorify them.

[GennGreymane]

You keep bringing up that analogy, but I don't think it makes much sense to be honest.

Video games are fictional characters in fictional worlds, they're usually not made by Black people for (mainly) Black people. And perhaps most importantly they do not expose children to these very specific cultural problems, i.e the inner city culture.

Its a perfectly acceptable analogy, even if its fictional characters, its the player actually actively participating in many acts, while music is passive. Both are a form of media that children have grown up with.

[sheggaro]

Dang it Sheggaro...I thought you were trying to say the influence of the performer caused people to gravitate to the life style. ie. folks in poor inner city communities see drug dealers, pimps, gang bangers, and rappers living large, so they think that's their ticket. And if they see rappers, rolling in dough, acting the thug, they will think they need to emulate that.

If you think the lyrics are what's causing it, then you are forcing me to side with GennGreymane, and truth be told, I don't know if I can forgive you for that.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant?

I should have clarified what I meant with create I'm sorry. It creates it in the sense that it glorifes a very negative lifestyle and generates a level of acceptance as a result. It generates very bad role models.

The lyrics are of course part of it, however. When you hear them singing about commiting crime and getting rich off it, that's a part of the problem.

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Its a perfectly acceptable analogy, even if its fictional characters, its the player actually actively participating in many acts, while music is passive. Both are a form of media that children have grown up with.

And yet the music is far more real than the games could ever be.

The music is made by Black people, for Black people, about Black people. It's personal. It's part of their identity. And that's what makes it dangerous. It gives the downtrodden the idea that's all they can ever be. It gives them the impression they can't be successful, law abiding citizens.

Video games don't come close to being comparable.

I think what society at large fails to understand is that the contuining disadvantage of Black people is as much a cultural problem (as in their culture), as it is an economonic one.

[GennGreymane]

And yet the music is far more real than the games could ever be.

The music is made by Black people, for Black people, about Black people. It's personal. It's part of their identity. And that's what makes it dangerous.

Video games don't come close to being comparable.

Video games are very comparable, as are movies (another form of media people assume causes violence).

Are you now calling music dangerous?

Let me requote my self from a bit earlier.

Does metal create satanists?
Is rock and roll really the devils music? Will it promote teen pregnancy!
Will my friend who listens to country music lose his house, his car, his wife, his dog, and go to jail after a bar fight?

[sheggaro]

Video games are very comparable, as are movies (another form of media people assume causes violence).

Are you now calling music dangerous?

Let me requote my self from a bit earlier.

Does metal create satanists?
Is rock and roll really the devils music? Will it promote teen pregnancy!
Will my friend who listens to country music lose his house, his car, his wife, his dog, and go to jail after a bar fight?

Like I said Genn, just because other forms of media may not do it, I think this one does. I already told you why I think it does.

[dubious_doomhammer]

No it doesn't create it per se. It doesn't put guns into the hands of people and makes them sell drugs. But it encourages it.

It gives children, young men etc a sense of acceptance and glorification of the criminal lifestyle.

What you are exposed to, especially when young does affect you.

So where are all the people affected by Marilyn Manson, or Nine-Inch Nails, or Slipknot, or Insane Clown Posse, etc etc?

[sheggaro]

So where are all the people affected by Marilyn Manson, or Nine-Inch Nails, or Slipknot, or Insane Clown Posse, etc etc?

There are no people affected by those artists, because the people that listen to this music are not impoverished Black people with a major identity crisis. Nor do the artists glorify the inner city crime culture.

[Independent voter]

The people we need to reach are much more likely to listen to Snoop than even Obama.

[GennGreymane]

Like I said Genn, just because other forms of media may not do it, I think this one does. I already told you why I think it does.

And I fail to see how it can be so different from all other forms of media. Especially very visual and graphic ones, one of which lets you simulate illegal actions.

And Norwegian death metal is made by Norwegians, for Norwegians, and its a part of the culture.... and its a pretty fucking peaceful country.

[sheggaro]

And I fail to see how it can be so different from all other forms of media. Especially very visual and graphic ones, one of which lets you simulate illegal actions.

And Norwegian death metal is made by Norwegians, for Norwegians, and its a part of the culture.... and its a pretty fucking peaceful country.

Because it's so very personal. That's why.

Norwegians don't have a history of being discriminated against, of being outsiders, of being downtrodden. Black people in the US do.

[Hotmail]

I wonder how it's going to turn out.

[shadowdasher]

Video games glorify killing police, joining gangs, committing war crimes, killing random civilians etc. Yet research shows they do not create violence

Mario isn't a real person. Zelda isn't a real person. The main characters in GTA are not real people. Master Chief isn't a real person. Ash isn't a real person. Duke Nukem isn't a real person. Thrall isn't a real person.

Snoop Dog is a real person. Dr Dre is a real person. Biggie Smalls is a real dead person. 2Pac is a real dead person. 50 Cent is a real person. Ice Cube is a real person.

So which ones do you think is going to hold more sway over an impressionable mind? The video game character that only really shows up on your gaming machine? Or the rapper that's spreading his message on TV (MTV, reality shows, the news, talk shows, movies), youtube, radio, concerts, clothing, and magazines?

I for one know that if I follow what they do in GTA, I'll be shot dead. I know I won't get coins from jumping up and hitting bricks with my fist.

But for someone that is poorly educated, seeing a real life person telling them to commit crimes cause then they'll make it big is a real thing and more believable in their mind.

[GennGreymane]

Because it's so very personal. That's why.

Norwegians don't have a history of being discriminated against, of being outsiders, of being downtrodden. Black people in the US do.

So now its about actual external factors in peoples actual reality and not music?

[Tempguy]

The people we need to reach are much more likely to listen to Snoop than even Obama.

So simple yet so true.

[sheggaro]

So now its about actual external factors in peoples actual reality and not music?

It's always been about actual external factors.

And how the music glorifies the problems associated with, or created by them.

The two are inseparable.

[GennGreymane]

Mario isn't a real person. Zelda isn't a real person. The main characters in GTA are not real people. Master Chief isn't a real person. Ash isn't a real person. Duke Nukem isn't a real person. Thrall isn't a real person.

Snoop Dog is a real person. Dr Dre is a real person. Biggie Smalls is a real dead person. 2Pac is a real dead person. 50 Cent is a real person. Ice Cube is a real person.

So which ones do you think is going to hold more sway over an impressionable mind? The video game character that only really shows up on your gaming machine? Or the rapper that's spreading his message on TV (MTV, reality shows, the news, talk shows, movies), youtube, radio, concerts, clothing, and magazines?

I for one know that if I follow what they do in GTA, I'll be shot dead. I know I won't get coins from jumping up and hitting bricks with my fist.

But for someone that is poorly educated, seeing a real life person telling them to commit crimes cause then they'll make it big is a real thing and more believable in their mind.

I also brought up movies and other genres of music. Video games are meant to immerse the player themselves. The player does the acts in the game, the player does the illegal action, the player commits the war crimes

but its all digital

just like songs can be about illegal action, but its just lyrics. Its less hands on, its very passive.

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It's always been about actual external factors.

And how the music glorifies the problems associated with, or created by them.

The two are inseparable.

Music is not the creator of the issue.

[sheggaro]

I also brought up movies and other genres of music. Video games are meant to immerse the player themselves. The player does the acts in the game, the player does the illegal action, the player commits the war crimes

but its all digital

just like songs can be about illegal action, but its just lyrics.

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Music is not the creator of the issue.

You're right, but it's the promoter.

And thus a part of a nasty problem.