1. #1
    Dreadlord Zippoflames's Avatar
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    Are C'Thun decks good for the game?

    As title, Do you guys think it is a decent addition to the game?
    I personally think he is far too easy to buff and the cards that require him to have 10hp/at should be changed to 15+
    But on the other side it does allow people who play using no money to get a competitive deck maybe?

    I cant decide if I like facing them or if they give me the hump lol

  2. #2
    I think they are good for the game overall. In many other card games decks they simply buff one card are usually crapped on and are mostly non-competitive so it was nice to see it become a good success. I think more of the cards should have supports like C'Thun in the future, especially more big lore characters from WoW if it would be feasibly warranted.

    I think the Klaxxi Amberweaver is a bit over the top considering it will be a 4/10 for four mana 90% of the time, but the warrior armor gain & priest heal is definitely appropriate for the game right now considering how badly aggro STILL dominates much of the meta. If the C'Thun cards were changed to 15+ attack you would see a lot more games finishing without their effects going off, except in control matchups that often go into fatigue. You also need to look at the initial complaints that some players had about C'Thun decks, namely that they were vanilla cards were no big effects that stood out, with a few exceptions. Having big effects for 10+ attack makes up for the fact that running C'Thun decks means that you're more or less running with 2/3 crocolisks and 3/4 mech spiders.

  3. #3
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    I would personally put the effect activation threshold at 12, rather than 10. Not as harsh as the 15 you suggested, which would render the decks unplayable if they had unlucky opening draw.

    However, 12 is more reasonable, requiring three cards to reach the threshold rather than two. It's meant to be a goal to work towards because they payoffs for effect minions (eg Klaxxi, Shieldbearer, the Priest one, Twin Emps) are MONSTROUS for the cost of the cards themselves. At the moment, unless the Cthun deck in question just gets really shitty draw, this threshold is reached by turn 2 or 3, with very little effort.
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  4. #4
    I personally hate them and think they kind of ruined the game. They basically gave everyone a free legendary and enough free cards to make an easy deck. So, they made it easy for casual players to get more lucky wins against skilled players. If I am facing a c'thun deck, I usually know that the odds are I am going to lose by turn 10 if I can't burn them down. It used to be that you needed strategy for this game, but now it seems more of throw everything at face and hope you beat them.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by patseguin View Post
    I personally hate them and think they kind of ruined the game
    More or less this. Variety is dead, faceroll is king.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikkaszal View Post
    I would personally put the effect activation threshold at 12, rather than 10. Not as harsh as the 15 you suggested, which would render the decks unplayable if they had unlucky opening draw.

    However, 12 is more reasonable, requiring three cards to reach the threshold rather than two. It's meant to be a goal to work towards because they payoffs for effect minions (eg Klaxxi, Shieldbearer, the Priest one, Twin Emps) are MONSTROUS for the cost of the cards themselves. At the moment, unless the Cthun deck in question just gets really shitty draw, this threshold is reached by turn 2 or 3, with very little effort.
    I honestly don't mind it being at 10, I think the bigger problem is the fact that Brann plus any of those minions is a pretty huge game swing for not all that much mana invested, 10 at the most with Twin Emps and 3 4/6 Taunts for 10 being the craziest but 20 Armor, or 20 Health from either Warrior or Priest decks is stupid good as well. Klaxxi would matter more if Druid was running Defender of Argus along with it but on it's own it's manageable if still really good.
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  7. #7
    I think C'thun decks are a new and fun addition to the game. I think they made it WAY too easy to buff him to the 10atk threshold. I also think the minions that buff him have too many stats adding to the mindlessness of making a C'thun deck. There are plenty of fun ways to buff C'thun that I've encountered in the game but they are few and far between. The fact that it's so easy to make a successful C'thun deck leads me to believe it could have been tuned better:

    1) C'thuns starting stats should have been lower, getting to 10atk takes 2 cards...
    2) C'thun's minions should have been tuned to not be so good:
    Beckoner of evil: 2/3 for 2 mana and +2/+2 for C'thun. +1/+1 would have been fine.
    In fact many of the +2/+2 cards should have been +1/+1.
    Blade of C'thun: a 4/4 for 9 and kill any minion and give its stats to C'thun...C'mon now!! Cool minion + effect to be sure, but maybe tone it down to give C"thun +2/+2 at the most.

    This way, C'thuns atk/hp wouldn't get too ridiculously high unless your deck is amazing/lucky and you'd actually feel like you've accomplished something by getting your C'thun to 10atk rather then:

    play 2 cards = C'thun has 10 atk....profit

    THe other problem that arises from this style of deck is that since they are so easy to make and therefore popular, many players can just create aggro decks to counter them; beat them before turn 10 to avoid a nasty C'thun drop.

    I enjoy facing a variety of fun and different decks, but lately it seems like its C'thun or aggro....rinse & repeat, incoming anti C'thun + aggro deck!!
    Last edited by eclypsus; 2016-07-12 at 10:56 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by eclypsus View Post
    I think C'thun decks are a new and fun addition to the game. I think they made it WAY too easy to buff him to the 10atk threshold. I also think the minions that buff him have too many stats adding to the mindlessness of making a C'thun deck. There are plenty of fun ways to buff C'thun that I've encountered in the game but they are few and far between. The fact that it's so easy to make a successful C'thun deck leads me to believe it could have been tuned better:

    1) C'thuns starting stats should have been lower, getting to 10atk takes 2 cards...
    2) C'thun's minions should have been tuned to not be so good:
    Beckoner of evil: 2/3 for 2 mana and +2/+2 for C'thun. +1/+1 would have been fine.
    In fact many of the +2/+2 cards should have been +1/+1.
    Blade of C'thun: a 4/4 for 9 and kill any minion and give its stats to C'thun...C'mon now!! Cool minion + effect to be sure, but maybe tone it down to give C"thun +2/+2 at the most.

    This way, C'thuns atk/hp wouldn't get too ridiculously high unless your deck is amazing/lucky and you'd actually feel like you've accomplished something by getting your C'thun to 10atk rather then:

    play 2 cards = C'thun has 10 atk....profit

    THe other problem that arises from this style of deck is that since they are so easy to make and therefore popular, many players can just create aggro decks to counter them; beat them before turn 10 to avoid a nasty C'thun drop.

    I enjoy facing a variety of fun and different decks, but lately it seems like its C'thun or aggro....rinse & repeat, incoming anti C'thun + aggro deck!!
    The C'thun minions are fine, and C'thun decks are fine really. I'd like to know how long the Meta is going to stay this way though, I think that’s something that could go a long way to quieting people on how OP a particular deck or style of play is if we knew there were new cards coming on a semi regular release cycle rather than this vast unknown amount of time that actually does quite a bit to inflate the ‘X card/deck is too op, this game is shit, etc’ arguments we hear a lot.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by eclypsus View Post
    I think C'thun decks are a new and fun addition to the game. I think they made it WAY too easy to buff him to the 10atk threshold. I also think the minions that buff him have too many stats adding to the mindlessness of making a C'thun deck. There are plenty of fun ways to buff C'thun that I've encountered in the game but they are few and far between. The fact that it's so easy to make a successful C'thun deck leads me to believe it could have been tuned better:

    1) C'thuns starting stats should have been lower, getting to 10atk takes 2 cards...
    2) C'thun's minions should have been tuned to not be so good:
    Beckoner of evil: 2/3 for 2 mana and +2/+2 for C'thun. +1/+1 would have been fine.
    In fact many of the +2/+2 cards should have been +1/+1.
    Blade of C'thun: a 4/4 for 9 and kill any minion and give its stats to C'thun...C'mon now!! Cool minion + effect to be sure, but maybe tone it down to give C"thun +2/+2 at the most.

    This way, C'thuns atk/hp wouldn't get too ridiculously high unless your deck is amazing/lucky and you'd actually feel like you've accomplished something by getting your C'thun to 10atk rather then:

    play 2 cards = C'thun has 10 atk....profit

    THe other problem that arises from this style of deck is that since they are so easy to make and therefore popular, many players can just create aggro decks to counter them; beat them before turn 10 to avoid a nasty C'thun drop.

    I enjoy facing a variety of fun and different decks, but lately it seems like its C'thun or aggro....rinse & repeat, incoming anti C'thun + aggro deck!!
    TBH heroes like priest & warrior more or less required C'Thun to be designed as a large stat stick monster. They have too many ways to control the board and heal themselves up preemptively or reactively. If C'Thun couldn't get to 20 some odd attack or more then all it would accomplish against these classes would be to maybe destroy 1-2 minions with a few face damage, then the immediate Entomb/Execute would follow, leaving the game that much worse for the C'Thun player to even lay him on the board. As it is right now you would have to be insane to lay down a big C'Thun against either class unless it garunteed lethal that turn or you knew they had used all of their hard removal. Any other time and you're basically throwing the game to them.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Pantalaimon View Post
    TBH heroes like priest & warrior more or less required C'Thun to be designed as a large stat stick monster. They have too many ways to control the board and heal themselves up preemptively or reactively. If C'Thun couldn't get to 20 some odd attack or more then all it would accomplish against these classes would be to maybe destroy 1-2 minions with a few face damage, then the immediate Entomb/Execute would follow, leaving the game that much worse for the C'Thun player to even lay him on the board. As it is right now you would have to be insane to lay down a big C'Thun against either class unless it garunteed lethal that turn or you knew they had used all of their hard removal. Any other time and you're basically throwing the game to them.
    ANY class that lets your C'thun live for more then 1 turn is not going to last long...if your opponent knows you're playing C'thun deck then they are saving hard removal for him, PERIOD. "Doomcaller" buffs him and brings him back anyways.

    My point was that it's way too easy to make a monsterous C'thun using above average cards to do it, there needs to be some sort of drawback and therre currently isn't. It either needs to be much more difficult to grow your C'thun or the minions that grow him need to be cut down a peg or two.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by patseguin View Post
    They basically gave everyone a free legendary and enough free cards to make an easy deck. So, they made it easy for casual players to get more lucky wins against skilled players.
    Buying more cards than the casual players doesn't make you skilled, champ. If there's a catch up mechanic for new players that lets them compete with your wallet then that's a good thing.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by eclypsus View Post
    Blade of C'thun: a 4/4 for 9 and kill any minion and give its stats to C'thun...C'mon now!! Cool minion + effect to be sure, but maybe tone it down to give C"thun +2/+2 at the most.
    That hardly fixes though C'thun reaching 10 attack, since by turn 9 he's probably well over that.

    If anything, the only time C'thun reliably gets too far out of hand is in Druid decks, so maybe some of those should be looked at instead.

    But I think C'thun is good for the game, despite how depressing it can get to see another C'thun. It allows people to get into the game quickly with a cheap deck that's pretty good, and not just another zoo deck (Although I suppose people can still go that route if they want to).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by eclypsus View Post
    My point was that it's way too easy to make a monsterous C'thun using above average cards to do it, there needs to be some sort of drawback and therre currently isn't. It either needs to be much more difficult to grow your C'thun or the minions that grow him need to be cut down a peg or two.
    Its the minions or the amount of attack cthun needs to give the minions the bonus. I mean, when you know you are against a cthun deck, there is ways to prepare for the card being dropped...like removals, polymorph, freeze or just flood the board to spread the dmg. But you cant prepare for cthun himslef if the minions are to powerful with their bonuses. Like "if cthun has 10 attack"...thats like fucking always.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by eclypsus View Post
    ANY class that lets your C'thun live for more then 1 turn is not going to last long...if your opponent knows you're playing C'thun deck then they are saving hard removal for him, PERIOD. "Doomcaller" buffs him and brings him back anyways.

    My point was that it's way too easy to make a monsterous C'thun using above average cards to do it, there needs to be some sort of drawback and therre currently isn't. It either needs to be much more difficult to grow your C'thun or the minions that grow him need to be cut down a peg or two.
    Yes I know classes save hard removal for him, but you're missing my point. The classes I mentioned in particular have way too many benefits given to them, in terms of healing/armor gains & board control via removal, that even if a massive C'Thun is dropped it almost never has that big of an impact on either class unless a big C'Thun simply outright achs lethal for the player that same turn. This is because after the removal on him comes the warrior or priest simply starts slapping minions down to more or less fully recover from any face damage they recieve while also building their board at the same time (even without the C'Thun specific armor/healing minions both classes have shield maiden/darkshire alchemist and even Reno if they so choose). Blizzard allowing C'Thun to get massive is simply their way of providing a more realistic method of a providing a wider range execute style ability in HS for classes that simply do not die unless you're prepared for a 30 minute fatigue game. Making C'Thun regularly only be able to grow into maybe a 12-15 attack minion wouldn't be enough to turn the game against classes that hoard armor/heal gains & that don't commit to a big board because the small damage would accomplish nothing in the end.

    I wouldn't really label all C'Thun cards as "above average". Some of them are decent, but many competitive C'Thun decks do run the 2/3 & 3/4. Outside of the actual C'Thun stat modifiers attatched to them they are simply a 2/3 crocolisk & a 3/4 mech spider. Hardly overturned stats for the 2 & 3 drops we have now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    That hardly fixes though C'thun reaching 10 attack, since by turn 9 he's probably well over that.

    If anything, the only time C'thun reliably gets too far out of hand is in Druid decks, so maybe some of those should be looked at instead.

    But I think C'thun is good for the game, despite how depressing it can get to see another C'thun. It allows people to get into the game quickly with a cheap deck that's pretty good, and not just another zoo deck (Although I suppose people can still go that route if they want to).
    Exactly. HS shouldn't mostly come down to either choosing A) Wallet Decks or B) Cheap Aggro Decks. C'Thun is an excellent middle ground for ladder.

  15. #15
    They are boring and predictable, a lot of the C'thun cards are pretty good, even without C'thun around, one of the tempo mage decks uses the spell power minion I believe. When the decks first came out, it was irritating, but when the meta started to work to counter these decks, it helped somewhat, although the only real counter is agro, also kinda boring...

    All in all, not much has changed!

  16. #16
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    Kind of a lame duck deck to be honest, not to mention you are trying to get a game to go 10+ turns in order to get him out anyway. Yogg Tempo Mage is more fun than stupid C'thun is.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dandine View Post
    They are boring and predictable, a lot of the C'thun cards are pretty good, even without C'thun around, one of the tempo mage decks uses the spell power minion I believe. When the decks first came out, it was irritating, but when the meta started to work to counter these decks, it helped somewhat, although the only real counter is agro, also kinda boring...

    All in all, not much has changed!
    To be fair almost everything in HS is predictable. If you're facing a particular deck you know what card a player is going to lay down on curve if they are able, or what removal will be used on what, even if you will probably win or lose a game based on your mulligan & opponent's starting play.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Kind of a lame duck deck to be honest, not to mention you are trying to get a game to go 10+ turns in order to get him out anyway. Yogg Tempo Mage is more fun than stupid C'thun is.
    I think it is good that deck is helping the meta force games to turn 10+. Kind of think the playerbase doesn't remember that the game doesn't end at turn 4, 5, or 6.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantalaimon View Post
    To be fair almost everything in HS is predictable. If you're facing a particular deck you know what card a player is going to lay down on curve if they are able, or what removal will be used on what, even if you will probably win or lose a game based on your mulligan & opponent's starting play.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think it is good that deck is helping the meta force games to turn 10+. Kind of think the playerbase doesn't remember that the game doesn't end at turn 4, 5, or 6.
    Some of us don't have time to be playing through all 30 cards tbh.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Some of us don't have time to be playing through all 30 cards tbh.
    I'm going to be 'that guy' and say say if you don't have enough time to play longer than a 5-8 minute aggro match I really call into question how much time you have to play ANY video game, let alone do much for your entertainment elsewhere. You almost literally cannot get a more casual & time friendly game other than facebook-esque genres.

    If Blizzard is going to make an already fast game even quicker to finish then they might as well remove most cards above 5 or so mana and cut the deck limit down to 20 or so. Slow cards and decks still allow low mana fast cards to be played, but if you make the game cater too much to very fast brainless games then you're essentially wasting a large portion of the cards that have been designed & that is bad for the game overall.

  20. #20
    You have to slow the game down if you are playing with a C'Thun deck though, taunt, which Druid has plenty of good choices. Any agro deck is going to just rip through a C'Thun deck before turn 10 and there are only some classes that work well for it. Fast games that end before turn 10 are somewhat dull, from both sides.

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