Page 10 of 69 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
11
12
20
60
... LastLast
  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by VigilantRose View Post
    Except you apply this definition to no other heal. If Flash Heal tops someone off and forces a Rejuvenation to overheal, you don't claim the Flash Heal is 'worth less'. But that's exactly what you're claiming with your analysis: that somehow a healing shield matters on a full health player.

    If you're looking at it from a strictly theorycrafting sense, it's reasonable to argue that Shadow Covenant provides 250%/target healing due to the healing shield. However, once you're looking at logs, you need a method far more rigorous than simply halving effective healing to make any sort of rational comparison to other heals.
    I think you're missing the part where Shadow Covenant does twice as much up-front healing as the spell should because it has the healing absorb. In your example, Flash Heal wouldn't actually be topping the target off.

    The healing absorption is only half of the effective healing, so it's not like spamming it on a full health target creates a healing absorb.

    And you do apply this to a couple of other spells actually, namely Light of the Martyr and Spirit Link Totem. They create damage that has to be healed instead of a healing absorb, but it's the same thing, just easier to track in logs because they are damage events. We saw very similar things with LotM before Kihra took that into account where Paladins would be doing double everyone else's "healing" because they were spamming LotM but then had to be healed themselves to counter the damage it was doing to them.

    The only unique part about Shadow Covenant is that it doesn't actually do damage but instead is a healing absorb, which is the same thing if the healing absorb does not time out.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    And you do apply this to a couple of other spells actually, namely Light of the Martyr and Spirit Link Totem. They create damage that has to be healed instead of a healing absorb, but it's the same thing, just easier to track in logs because they are damage events. We saw very similar things with LotM before Kihra took that into account where Paladins would be doing double everyone else's "healing" because they were spamming LotM but then had to be healed themselves to counter the damage it was doing to them.
    Both LotM and Spirit Link Totem have an easily measured 'net healing'. What I'm trying to point out is that Shadow Covenant doesn't. If the target is full health (or nearly so) after the Shadow Covenant, the healing consuming the shield wouldn't have mattered anyway - you can't sensibly count it as a 'negative' of Shadow Covenant. Indeed, when you look at the various spells which routinely have 30%+ overhealing, what you should be considering is that Shadow Covenant is really just 'borrowing' their future healing (of which they've got more than you need anyway).

    Or consider Shadow Mend. If you cast Shadow Covenant and then cast Shadow Mend on top of it, you actually gain an advantage because you're locking in 250% from Shadow Covenant (which is actual healing) in exchange for 250% from Shadow Mend (which is only half actual healing and half healing that might disappear due to a DoT).

    Certainly, Shadow Covenant will warp the log numbers. However, a simple "let's cut the value in half" model is wildly inaccurate. Cutting Shadow Covenant's effective healing in half is the absolute worst possible case scenario, not anywhere near the average performance.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by VigilantRose View Post
    Or consider Shadow Mend. If you cast Shadow Covenant and then cast Shadow Mend on top of it, you actually gain an advantage because you're locking in 250% from Shadow Covenant (which is actual healing) in exchange for 250% from Shadow Mend (which is only half actual healing and half healing that might disappear due to a DoT).
    That's not how those spells work at all...

    Absorbed healing is counted as effective healing for the game's purposes. This is exactly why it distorts logs, because it is counting the healing twice. You wouldn't be "locking in" anything from Shadow Mend, because the absorb would just eat part of Shadow Mend's heal and the DoT will be based off of the healing AND absorbed healing.

    You can very simply test this. Get low on health, then use Shadow Covenant. Then, use Shadow Covenant again. You will notice that the first cast will do X healing and you will have a debuff for X/2, then the second one will "heal" for X/2, X/2 will be absorbed, and you will have another debuff again for another X/2.

    The way logs and meters record this is that the second cast would have done as much healing as the first cast, despite increasing your health by only half as much.

    Yes, there is some fringe side effect that occurs if the SC overheals by MORE than X/2 where it does create a healing absorb even though it would have been the same anyway without it, but this is the exact situation in which you would not use a spell like Shadow Covenant at all, so is it really relevant?

  4. #184
    Worth dropping our 4pc for better stats?

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan11d7 View Post
    Worth dropping our 4pc for better stats?
    Probably not. I'm not sure 2-3% more in secondary stat will make up for all the extra healing it does.

  6. #186
    What trinkets are you guys running for prepatch? Phylactery seems insane, not sure what else though.

  7. #187
    I have created a very tiny addon for tracking atonements, it's far from perfect and has several bugs, but it works ok, have tested it some in raid.

    It tracks active atonements and displays them in a list with a timer like:
    7: 5.3
    6: 7.2
    3: 10.5
    1: 14.3

    So in the above example you will have 7 atonements for 5.3 seconds, 6 atonements for 7.2, etc.

    Here is the project page: github.com/Aessy/AtonementTracker

    I will work more on it when I have time
    Last edited by Aessy; 2016-07-24 at 08:52 PM.

  8. #188
    So the damage from Felmouth Frenzy procs Atonement. I have yet to test this in a raid as I'm desperately trying to fish my way to a lvl 3 fishing shack before they patch the fishing bug but I think it could potentially be a better food option for now, and if there's anything similar in legion it could be worth investigating
    Disc Priests: Just 2 mana trinkets away from becoming Withered

  9. #189
    Fishbrul Special does something similar but it procs for so little overall damage I'm not really sure it's worth it. Then again, static stat food does not seem very exciting either.

  10. #190
    Has anyone made a BiS list for prepatch, or a stat weight by numbers?

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan11d7 View Post
    Has anyone made a BiS list for prepatch, or a stat weight by numbers?
    I can't imagine it being that much different than the 110 stat weights.

    Besides, it's prepatch, everything is nerfed to hell; you don't really need to min-max like crazy.

  12. #192
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    I can't imagine it being that much different than the 110 stat weights.

    Besides, it's prepatch, everything is nerfed to hell; you don't really need to min-max like crazy.
    Who knows, maybe some time in the future "I was 99 Percentile during the 4 weeks of legion prepatch" might be a valueable CV asset!

  13. #193
    Mechagnome Pearl1717's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    505
    Quote Originally Posted by ryan11d7 View Post
    Has anyone made a BiS list for prepatch, or a stat weight by numbers?
    Just take haste/crit gear. BiS prepatch gear doesn't matter cause its all old, significantly nerfed content that only lasts 6 weeks.
    Arthas Logs] | Azgalor Logs | Twitch | Pearl91#1607
    "I am a chemical engineer. To save time, lets just assume that I am never wrong."

  14. #194
    Deleted
    I've read most of the discussion so far guys, thanks for all the insight you brought, just a question about Shadow Covenant - I'm as sceptic as Totem is about that talent, and I dismissed it almost from the very moment I saw that it didn't carry over Atonement, but it seems like it may have some raw potential, AT LEAST according to Warcraft Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&fight=32 this is an example of fight for a priest, using strictly SC to heal. I'm just wondering whether this page accounts for the absorb part..

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Redrum333 View Post
    I've read most of the discussion so far guys, thanks for all the insight you brought, just a question about Shadow Covenant - I'm as sceptic as Totem is about that talent, and I dismissed it almost from the very moment I saw that it didn't carry over Atonement, but it seems like it may have some raw potential, AT LEAST according to Warcraft Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...aling&fight=32 this is an example of fight for a priest, using strictly SC to heal. I'm just wondering whether this page accounts for the absorb part..
    No, nothing in the Healing pane of WCL accounts for the healing absorb, as all healing absorb events are counted as effective healing. This is actually the same reason why Tyrant logs have always been distorted: the aura in P2 makes all healing events read as "absorbed" instead of overhealing when it caps your max health. At the same time, meter addons and WCL can't just call absorbed healing overhealing because Touch of Harm is also a mechanic that exists that does need to be healed through and it also is a healing absorbed (ditto with Befouled on Fel Lord).

    Basically what displays in the Healing pane is the same as if you just cut off the 2nd half of the Shadow Covenant tooltip. I've talked with Kihra about this and it looks like it's probably just not changing any time soon because absorbed healing events are indistinguishable from one another.

    We went through a big discussion on this a little earlier, but the long story short is that it's important to keep in mind that some part of that Shadow Covenant healing was negating some other part of the rest of the healing so the real net healing contributed was less than what it appears by a pretty significant amount.

  16. #196
    Deleted
    Ah too bad, guess we just can't fix some issues with statistics, thanks.
    I guess it's gonna be a lot of fun closer to 110 to optimise the spell usage - for now I'm using a wf phylactery and I have troubles running oom without actually going for total mindless spam... It's cool though when people on pugs ask me questions about this spec just because "I'm daring" (looking at their reactions) to play it even though most people seem to have converted to holy.
    A stupid question perhaps, but I couldn't find the "horn" trinket people were talking about - don't believe it's the melee heirloom one from mythics? ^^

  17. #197
    So which trinkets should we go after as Disc?

    Seems like Corrupted Starlight and Caged Horror are best so far? Especially for grouped up trash.

    Naraxas' Spiked Tongue does not seem to proc Atonement (too bad too since this is a high dps trinket). Same with Figurehead of the Naglfar (though it's not a very good trinket anyway).

    Anything else worth considering?

  18. #198
    Anon, Pearl, yes its just the prepatch and doesn't really matter, but some people still want to play it and just like the feeling of knowing what their BIS are and working towards that. Don't shoot it down so much, its not like it's hard to assemble the list anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryan11d7 View Post
    Has anyone made a BiS list for prepatch, or a stat weight by numbers?
    I made a rough one in the old thread, I can't quote it or even edit it to get the original links since the thread is locked now, but if you want the links the post is here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...9#post41143429
    This list puts highest priority on haste, even if the item has mastery instead of crit. As PosPosPos pointed out, any gear with mastery will want to be replaced when it comes time to level, but for raiding in the pre-patch, a little wont hurt.

    One important thing to note is the difference in ilvl between items obtained from HFC before and after the prepatch. Items obtained from HFC AFTER the prepatch are all at a standardised baseline ilvl with the Legion titanforge system in place, whereas items obtained from HFC BEFORE the prepatch have increasing item level as you progress through the raid.
    This will mean that some items that were prioritised for their higher ilvl but slightly worse stat distribution may now be worse than before. As such, for gear obtained only during the prepatch, the new BiS list for raiding is as follows:

    Helm: Pious Cowl
    Neck: Choker of Forbidden Indulgence
    Shoulders: Pious Mantle
    Back: Cloak of Hideous Unity
    Chest: Pious Raiment
    Wrist: Cursed Blood Bracers
    Hands: Satin Gloves of Injustice
    Waist: Sludge-Soaked Waistband
    Legs: Pious Leggings
    Feet: PedalPushing Sandals
    Ring1: Legendary Ring
    Ring2: Seal of the Traitorous Councilor
    Trinket1: Demonic Phylactery
    Trinket2: Prophecy of Fear (single target) or Unblinking Gaze of Sethe (AoE) are best if you can get them. You will have to set your loot spec to SHADOW for personal loot to get these.
    Weapon: Voidcore Greatstaff
    Last edited by Jimjam38; 2016-07-26 at 05:07 AM.
    Disc Priests: Just 2 mana trinkets away from becoming Withered

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Atonement View Post
    You will have to set your loot spec to SHADOW for personal loot to get these.
    I wonder if we need to set the loot priority by default on shadow or if they adjust the disci loot priorities? (maybe someone from the beta can comment this and the current Status in beta?) It probably is only a thing with the trinkets due to the fact that we dont have spirit anymore?

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasoy View Post
    Fishbrul Special does something similar but it procs for so little overall damage I'm not really sure it's worth it. Then again, static stat food does not seem very exciting either.
    This is good. Looking at the proc on WoWhead for Fishbrul Special it looks to be just a 110 version of felmouth frenzy, almost identical wording and I'd assume a similar relative damage increase.

    In regards to felmouth frenzy, I'm yet to test it in a raid but in dungeons I've found it to be a small but nice addition to both my damage and healing.
    I've also found Timewalking using the legendary dps cape to be quite good, with the AoE damage proc providing a nice boost to healing on trash packs to help counteract the tank damage from multiple mobs.

    The main thing I've gotten out of testing out these two items however, is how they both make the spec feel a bit more complete. It really makes think disc should have had some little AoE damage ability as baseline (like the original schism or something), rather than relying on trinkets, but allowing all spell damage to proc atonement, thus allowing us to benefit from dps trinkets is an acceptable compromise I guess.
    Disc Priests: Just 2 mana trinkets away from becoming Withered

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •