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  1. #261
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    People that don't play Disc only know what they see from other Disc players, and if there's anything I'm 100% confident of about Disc, it's that the vast majority of people playing the spec are actually doing it very, very wrong and for some reason refuse to even try playing the correct way.

    Trying to get people to follow the simple concept of using their Flash Heal equivalent with a talented 30% increase to it for 5 mans in alpha, beta, and the past week has been like pulling teeth. People said they literally couldn't finish normal mode Legion dungeons and after a few hours of beating around the bush, they'd finally describe their playstyle as trying to heal primarily via Smite, and then they'd adamantly argue against doing the obvious: using the Flash Heal type spell when your tank is getting wrecked.

    Raid healing has been similar, with every possible variant of spell combinations being argued to the death as what you're "supposed to do" except the obvious: use the one that puts Atonement on multiple people instead of just one person and use it a lot before you want to heal for a lot and then do damage. For some reason single target healing, refusing to actually spend mana when you want to do the same HPS as everyone that is spending mana, and outright denial that Disc even can do that level of raid healing all seem like more attractive ideas than using the multi-Atonement button when you want to heal multiple people.

    ___

    Imagine you're playing with a WoD Disc. All they ever use is Flash Heal, seemingly ignoring that Power Word: Shield is the single highest HPS spammable ability in the game. It goes terribly because of course it would. The next Disc priest you end up in a group with lets the tank die because he's Penancing the enemy mobs instead of the tank who is getting destroyed. You don't really know what's happening, just that the tank keeps dying and it's getting frustrating. You see yet another Disc Priest, and you already feel like the spec is probably terrible because the last 2 were so awful, and this one is so ridiculous that he busts out Saving Grace and thinks he should just spam that whenever anybody gets low. Finally on one last run you get another Disc Priest that starts spamming Holy Nova and everybody dies, so you leave the group because of course it was a waste of time, it was a Disc Priest, right?

    You finally come across someone that's actually figured out that the secret to Disc is really just to ignore everything that isn't Archangel and PW:S, but that's stupid and wrong because <insert reason here> and Disc is still bad because if it was that simple, why did were the other four so bad?

    ___

    So yeah, everyone thinks Disc is bad and does like at least 20% less healing than everyone else because they have mostly only ever played with bad Disc Priests and don't even remember the time they got lucky.
    That same story has two sides.
    The other side is when people start linking disc logs from beta, where the Disc is over geared and a skilled player, playing with under geared, wrong talents and awful players overall - healers. And then they go around saying how Disc should be both doing top dps and top healing, but lack the understanding that the only reason they end up having so much healing is because their fellow healers s^cked so bad, that a warlock life draining would do better healing.

    Truth to be told - Disc is not supposed to be top dps or top healer. It is a support class.
    Another truth - Disc is not supposed to be 30% behind the rest of the healers or 30% behind the last dps.

    Make your own assumptions from these two posts.
    Last edited by mmocd20d58e44b; 2016-07-28 at 12:16 PM.

  2. #262
    Deleted

    My 2 cents for Disc Priests

    Well, i have been around a while and looking to many people saying is a unplayable class.

    In my opinion it can still be viable if versatility not just adds more "heals" and "damage" but also adds "absorbs" this could really make a huge change on the gameplay, specially when you have to choose between mastery and shielding.

    Versatility Right now, i cant see the point on stacking versatility over mastery, i still think mastery is better on the game than versatility for Disc Priest, but i am sure someone can come up with a chart and numbers stating why... this should be made with different viabilities like 1 dot and 3 atonements and the other way round as well, like 3 dots and 1 atonement.

    Just hoping for a way to be able to actually play the class and have fun with it.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Copenhagen23 View Post
    My dilemma was go Disc or Holy first to max out my artifact. Disc has a bad stigma but it's actually a good spec. The problem is Holy is better. Why go Disc when you don't really need to?
    Again, most people don't really understand how Disc is going to play in Legion. They are basing everything on what they are seeing in the prepatch. To say that Disc won't be viable in raids or they are just bad in raids and there is no reason to bring them is ridiculous and completely incorrect. Most people that play Disc are refusing to learn how the spec actually works. They are trying to continue to heal as it was before and that is not the intention of Disc. Also, the intention of Disc healing is not for HFC, it's for Legion raids. Have you seen any of the Legion raid boss videos? Do you know what the mechanics are for the fights? If not, maybe you should look them up before stating your nonsense.

    I healed Mythic dungeons without any issues. I had a bear tank that was barely 700. We did fine on all Mythic dungeons, cleared them out in a few hours. There's this crazy concept of, you know, actually practicing your spec and correctly learning how to play it! I know, it's mind blowing to think that, but it's true. Bringing a Disc priest to a raid in Legion will absolutely be mandatory, barrier is amazing in Legion and the extra dps will be great for progression fights. The burst healing is perfect for many boss fights in Legion (again, go watch Fatboss videos, maybe you'll learn something). Maybe a good way to explain how Disc works is to think about it like a backwards healer with the ability to do backwards HoTs. You dot the boss and adds (acts like a rejuvenation spell for those who have your atonement). You burst heal with penance (prayer of healing). You spot heal with shadow mend (healing touch). Maybe that will help someone understand the spells a bit more.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Healprincess View Post
    That same story has two sides.
    The other side is when people start linking disc logs from beta, where the Disc is over geared and a skilled player, playing with under geared, wrong talents and awful players overall - healers. And then they go around saying how Disc should be both doing top dps and top healing, but lack the understanding that the only reason they end up having so much healing is because their fellow healers s^cked so bad, that a warlock life draining would do better healing.

    Truth to be told - Disc is not supposed to be top dps or top healer. It is a support class.
    Another truth - Disc is not supposed to be 30% behind the rest of the healers or 30% behind the last dps.

    Make your own assumptions from these two posts.

    Did you even play beta? There is no environment where gear is relevant because every raid test was scaled to a certain item level, even LFR. Outgearing other people wasn't even possible outside of cheesing scaled-up gear (and those are obvious so you can know easily whether a log is relevant or not). Yes, skill differences were a thing, but that's exactly what I said: some people are good at Disc and a lot, lot more are really bad at it for various reasons.

    Nobody said that Disc should always top meters though, just that rants about how it can't possibly do as much healing as other specs are ridiculous.

  5. #265
    Mechagnome Pearl1717's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atonement View Post
    So I would assume that 3.6% damage, which also converts to atonement healing, is probably worth having over what I assume is only 1% haste from food buffs? As a panda maybe 2% haste is better, idk?

    For the record, Fel Lash, the proc from Felmouth Frenzy, scales with haste (2+haste RPPM) and according to the wowhead comments also seems to scale with ilvl or spellpower, and also benefits from masteries like the WoD arcane and demonology mastery, and I would assume the Unholy DK mastery (Fel lash is shadow damage). I would imagine the Fishbrul Special proc works exactly the same, except is fire damage not shadow.
    I used felmouth frenzy all raid testing this week and it consistently did 2-5% of my healing every fight. I think on one of them it topped out at 8% (that might have been a wipe attempt though)?

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...est#metric=hps

    Just go to my most recent kills for it. Its not terrible, but I'm not sure if its better than the 125 stat food. Theyre probably pretty comparable though. My biggest gripe with it is its pretty RNG (Obviously). If it procs when I need it to, its great. When it procs when I don't it sucks (see the times when it does ~1%).

    Quote Originally Posted by Healprincess View Post
    That same story has two sides.
    The other side is when people start linking disc logs from beta, where the Disc is over geared and a skilled player, playing with under geared, wrong talents and awful players overall - healers. And then they go around saying how Disc should be both doing top dps and top healing, but lack the understanding that the only reason they end up having so much healing is because their fellow healers s^cked so bad, that a warlock life draining would do better healing.

    Truth to be told - Disc is not supposed to be top dps or top healer. It is a support class.
    Another truth - Disc is not supposed to be 30% behind the rest of the healers or 30% behind the last dps.

    Make your own assumptions from these two posts.
    Disc support class. Why do people keep saying this, I really don't understand.
    Last edited by Pearl1717; 2016-07-28 at 04:57 PM.
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  6. #266
    I think as far as guide formatting goes, it might be beneficial to move your 5 man section further up toward the top of the guide. I wonder if moving it up/making it more prominent might mitigate some of the complaints we're seeing about disc.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Did you even play beta? There is no environment where gear is relevant because every raid test was scaled to a certain item level, even LFR. Outgearing other people wasn't even possible outside of cheesing scaled-up gear (and those are obvious so you can know easily whether a log is relevant or not). Yes, skill differences were a thing, but that's exactly what I said: some people are good at Disc and a lot, lot more are really bad at it for various reasons.

    Nobody said that Disc should always top meters though, just that rants about how it can't possibly do as much healing as other specs are ridiculous.
    You are talking to someone who honestly believed that WoD disc didn't have to hit archangel, justifying it with "but mah top parsez!".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearl1717 View Post
    Disc support class. Why do people keep saying this, I really don't understand.
    I like to think it's pointless semantics/fearmongering at this point, because all healers are fundamentally *the* support role to begin with, under traditional gaming definitions.

    Just that, it's easier to scare people by using big words and obscure terms/references.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    I like to think it's pointless semantics/fearmongering at this point, because all healers are fundamentally *the* support role to begin with, under traditional gaming definitions.
    Likely referring to a difference between "healer" and "support", like in Overwatch.

    Or like in Rift, how there actually WAS a full-blown "support" role, where you did some mediocre damage and mediocre healing, but were mainly there to provide a plethora of buffs and debuffs for your allies.

    I liked it, but I think it's a bit complicated for WoW, and the unskilled masses will cry about their support spec not doing as much dps as a real DPS, and not as much healing as a real Healer, because you can't really quantify "support" on Recount.

    But no, Disc is not "support" in any form. They just work better in raids where they're not the sole healer.

  9. #269
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    the unskilled masses will cry about their support spec not doing as much dps as a real DPS, and not as much healing as a real Healer, because you can't really quantify "support" on Recount.
    Yeah because doing 70% of a healer's healing and 70% of a dps's dps is somehow doing "less" than others. You can quantify that pretty easily. With those numbers I used in my example, if you had 5 Discipline Priests you would deal the same damage as 3.5 DPS and same healing as 3.5 healers. So basically the Disc Priests are worth 2 additional raid members.

    I guess this is too difficult to comprehend for some.
    Last edited by mmoc06f0881615; 2016-07-29 at 05:05 AM.

  10. #270
    Only like 20% of Discs currently doing HFC actually know what they are doing and it's already the least-played spec. It doesn't matter if Disc's contribution is somehow OP when actually played well, because finding 1 Disc that is competent is hard enough. Where would you get 5 from?

    That aside, Disc is a healer, full stop. Targeted by healer mechanics, has a dispel, has to manage mana, has a raid cooldown and a tank cooldown, is classified as a healer by everything in the game as a healer, and lacks basic tools to fulfill the role of a DPS (namely an interrupt). There is no 4th role, no hybrid, no "support" because the toolkits of the 3 roles are very clearly defined and Disc has every single "healer" tool. To not be a healer, it would have to be missing something beyond HPS. So even if you buy into bads touting that Disc will do significantly less healing than other healers, that just makes Disc a bad healer with a marginal "utility."

  11. #271
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    It doesn't matter if Disc's contribution is somehow OP when actually played well, because finding 1 Disc that is competent is hard enough. Where would you get 5 from?
    It really feels like this is the leading line of thought here. I said it a long time ago and I still am of this opinion: For many raid encounter, I wouldn't be surprised if the optimal strategy involved stacking Discs to a stupid extent, like 5-8 Discipline Priests and the only thing preventing that is that the class takes too much skill to play for guilds to be able to properly do that.


    I seriously feel the lack of an interrupt in 5mans, though. One of the things I miss about Resto Shaman. Why can't they even have the million year cooldown interrupt they used to have?

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Only like 20% of Discs currently doing HFC actually know what they are doing and it's already the least-played spec. It doesn't matter if Disc's contribution is somehow OP when actually played well, because finding 1 Disc that is competent is hard enough. Where would you get 5 from?

    That aside, Disc is a healer, full stop. Targeted by healer mechanics, has a dispel, has to manage mana, has a raid cooldown and a tank cooldown, is classified as a healer by everything in the game as a healer, and lacks basic tools to fulfill the role of a DPS (namely an interrupt). There is no 4th role, no hybrid, no "support" because the toolkits of the 3 roles are very clearly defined and Disc has every single "healer" tool. To not be a healer, it would have to be missing something beyond HPS. So even if you buy into bads touting that Disc will do significantly less healing than other healers, that just makes Disc a bad healer with a marginal "utility."
    Hey, TT, can you post some of your logs? I want to dissect them for information.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Likely referring to a difference between "healer" and "support", like in Overwatch.

    Or like in Rift, how there actually WAS a full-blown "support" role, where you did some mediocre damage and mediocre healing, but were mainly there to provide a plethora of buffs and debuffs for your allies.

    I liked it, but I think it's a bit complicated for WoW, and the unskilled masses will cry about their support spec not doing as much dps as a real DPS, and not as much healing as a real Healer, because you can't really quantify "support" on Recount.

    But no, Disc is not "support" in any form. They just work better in raids where they're not the sole healer.
    Or just a distinct subset of a support.

    Disc is definitely a support. Just like every other healer spec. You don't have to be a healer in order to be a support, but you can certainly be a support without being a healer.

    This is exactly why I say it's just pointless semantics and fearmongering using big words.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by davesignal View Post
    Hey, TT, can you post some of your logs? I want to dissect them for information.
    Just search for Totalite in warcraftlogs(or was it double l, I can't remember).

    You can also look up pearl's logs, because if you just want information you can just look up the top disc priests at the moment rather than insisting on just one specific person.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  14. #274
    2 L's, easily found if you look at Archimonde or Xhul healing ranks for Disc, or you could just look at Pearl's, Siory's, or a dozen other people that show up there for almost every boss. Direct link is hard right now because I'm on mobile.

    Not sure what exactly you'd be looking for though.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by PosPosPos View Post
    Or just a distinct subset of a support.

    Disc is definitely a support. Just like every other healer spec. You don't have to be a healer in order to be a support, but you can certainly be a support without being a healer.

    This is exactly why I say it's just pointless semantics and fearmongering using big words.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Just search for Totalite in warcraftlogs(or was it double l, I can't remember).

    You can also look up pearl's logs, because if you just want information you can just look up the top disc priests at the moment rather than insisting on just one specific person.
    The top disc priests at the moment aren't, you know, posting in this thread for me to ask them (I assume, who knows who's lurking). For that matter, I usually find the absolute top of the charts are the purview of people who are really goddamn lucky in one way or another. 75% percentile is where the really juicy data lives.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by davesignal View Post
    The top disc priests at the moment aren't, you know, posting in this thread for me to ask them (I assume, who knows who's lurking). For that matter, I usually find the absolute top of the charts are the purview of people who are really goddamn lucky in one way or another. 75% percentile is where the really juicy data lives.
    Then you do realize it's pointless asking Total for his logs as he's squarely 95 percentile or much higher?

    Your actions and intentions are completely misaligned.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

  17. #277
    I realize that now. I didn't before, because I didn't know who he was on Warcraftlogs. Hence why I was asking. You see how that works?

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by davesignal View Post
    The top disc priests at the moment aren't, you know, posting in this thread for me to ask them (I assume, who knows who's lurking). For that matter, I usually find the absolute top of the charts are the purview of people who are really goddamn lucky in one way or another. 75% percentile is where the really juicy data lives.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...pec=Discipline

    It's not about luck... You don't need luck to know how to perform well on a fight like Tyrant. I'm looking at people with 75% percentile on Tyrant and they're just playing with wrong talents, wrong trinkets and having bad spell "rotations". Maybe you can squeeze out an extra 15k hps with the right innervate, but that doesn't really explain how Pearl did 215k hps on Tyrant and someone else in this thread who thinks she knows more than she actually does, did 115k hps (that's the "75%" for you).

  19. #279
    I just pulled up Peárl, and she has two post-prepatch pulls on Velhari. One is 214k, one is 131k. Obviously something is different between these two pulls, and unless Peárl suffered a massive head injury on one that she didn't on the other you can safely call the confluence of circumstances that created the environment to pull 214k 'luck'.

    Unless you're a truly massive pedant. Either 214k was good luck, or 131k is bad luck. Either way, I would prefer to try and split the difference rather than look at the absolute 100% top end and assume that is eminently repeatable performance. Call me a cynic if you want.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by davesignal View Post
    I realize that now. I didn't before, because I didn't know who he was on Warcraftlogs. Hence why I was asking. You see how that works?
    He linked his logs earlier on in the thread too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by davesignal View Post
    I just pulled up Peárl, and she has two post-prepatch pulls on Velhari. One is 214k, one is 131k. Obviously something is different between these two pulls, and unless Peárl suffered a massive head injury on one that she didn't on the other you can safely call the confluence of circumstances that created the environment to pull 214k 'luck'.

    Unless you're a truly massive pedant. Either 214k was good luck, or 131k is bad luck. Either way, I would prefer to try and split the difference rather than look at the absolute 100% top end and assume that is eminently repeatable performance. Call me a cynic if you want.
    Or maybe, he learnt how to play better and reached 214k in the next attempt. It's your cognitive bias refusing to allow the existence of improvements due to polishing of skill.

    Oh, and I didn't realize I was in top 10 disc until I checked now, so I guess my logs would be useless to you too. Cheers and have fun improving yourself based on the 75th percentile.
    "My successes are my own, but my failures are due to extremist leftist liberals" - Party of Personal Responsibility

    Prediction for the future

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