1. #261
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephirdd View Post
    I feel like most talents have a different feel for skill cap like you said, but most of the high skill cap ones(with exception of StM) are worse than their competitors.

    Maybe there's something we didn't figure out though. Take Shadow Word: Void for instance: it's designed to give you a huge burst of insanity on demand; maybe it'll be superior to ToF on fights where you need to burst the boss in a phase BEFORE his execute phase? the current cookie cutter built(ToF/RoS/StM) is designed to make the priest a godlike executioner. However, talents like Legacy of the Void, SD:V and Void Lord are designed to throw you in and out of Voidform very fast. Then you have the artifact trait Sphere of Insanity which benefits heavily from having a high voidform uptime(not necessarily the voidform duration in itself).

    On the other hand, Mass Hysteria is an insane artifact trait which makes the ToF/RoS/StM build so so much better. Hopefully they tweak some of these talents a bit, while I'm loving the playstyle it feels really bad to see a talent and think "I'll never ever equip this talent no matter what".

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    Would you waste a Tome of the Clear Mind in order to play "optimally" for a sub 1min fight though? Although I'm interested in the math behind the 20% VT damage vs Mind Blast possible procs vs AS procs on such a short fight.
    I bought 40 of those tomes for like 25 gold a piece? So I rly don';t care how many I use in a raid..

  2. #262
    The skillcap involved with tof and as and ros involves target switching, multidotting, and generally having great spacial awareness in regards to environment and hand dexterity. Even if the other talents have a few uses, they are basically just fire and forget on a single target. The new paradigm is built around multitasking and having good awareness and control.
    Last edited by Kilee25; 2016-07-25 at 01:41 AM.
    "Falling from heaven is not as painful as surviving the impact."

    DPS Loss - my guild on Proudmoore
    The Old Guard - my guild on Earthen Ring
    Revenant - my guild on Echo Isles

  3. #263
    I don't really consider SW sniping or SWP blanketing "skill". The only people who don't do it (which ought to be none) are those who don't have the knowledge of it. Something as binary as using an ability or not is pretty unskillful, when compared to the decision making in when to cast a SW:V to provide maximum VF uptime. You can mess it up very easily and it should provide risk/reward. ToF only provides reward, which in my opinion, is very boring.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryeshot View Post
    I don't really consider SW sniping or SWP blanketing "skill". The only people who don't do it (which ought to be none) are those who don't have the knowledge of it. Something as binary as using an ability or not is pretty unskillful, when compared to the decision making in when to cast a SW:V to provide maximum VF uptime. You can mess it up very easily and it should provide risk/reward. ToF only provides reward, which in my opinion, is very boring.
    one is a mechanical skill, the other is a decision making skill. Micro and Macro. Happens on every game and there is always a debate on wether one is more important than the other.

    IMO I love mechanically difficult characters, but I like decision making depth as well.
    Last edited by Zephirdd; 2016-07-25 at 02:07 AM.

  5. #265
    Why is mind spike considered bad?

    Is it worth for aoe and cleave?

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetori View Post
    Why is mind spike considered bad?

    Is it worth for aoe and cleave?
    No, it promotes you holding onto mind blast, something you never want to do in any circumstance.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephirdd View Post
    can someone explain me the thought process behind San'layn? Like, yeah it increases VT heal and VE damage substantially but... at that talent row?

    You have Auspicious Spirits which is a massive insanity generation and damage increase as long as you get a little bit of crit, and Shadowy Insight which is arguably much better when you have fast dying targets(which means you can use the extra burst, like dungeons) or you have a lot of haste and low crit(unlikely I think, but not unheard of).

    Like, San'layn by itself doesn't look that bad, but it is completely useless because it's competing with two talents that are FAR FAR more useful. VE is very weak on non-solo environments(at least from what I saw in 7.0) and VT is only applied to long living targets. What's the design process in having this on the same row as the two insanity boosters? Is there some artifact trait I'm unaware of that makes VE/VT godlike to make use of this?
    San'layn is there as a reliable, non-RNG option. It's handy for leveling, because you need all the healing you can get and half the shit is going to be dead before your apparitions all hit, I'm enjoying it for PvP right now because the template's got shit for crit, and it's fun to throw on a lot of haste/mastery gear, take StM, and see gigantic VT ticks.

    I'm not convinced haste/mastery is nonviable, and if that's where you're going then you're probably not taking AS. Frankly, I'd prefer if they just took AS out of the goddamn talent tree and either trashed it or made it baseline. It's the blandest shit. Apparitions as a whole are a barely there thing, only serving to kind of try to make crit better but just as often end up wasted because of the travel time..
    Last edited by davesignal; 2016-07-25 at 07:27 AM.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by davesignal View Post
    But you're right, AS needs to be nerfed, because it's probably way too strong for that row. Or maybe make it baseline.
    Heh, seriously, half of our talents should be nerfed or made baseline...
    No more time wasted in WoW.. still reading this awesome forum, though

  9. #269
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Heh, seriously, half of our talents should be nerfed or made baseline...
    Some of our talents should seriously be re-designed, or just replaced with something that makes more sense. Mind Spike is a prime example here. Mind Spike:

    1) Doesn't fit the playstyle of the new Priest in ANY WAY
    2) Forces you to hold on to your Mind Blast, which is counterproductive - as discussed above
    3) Has an INCREDIBLY clunky way of using it, and legitimately does about as much damage as my Yorkshire Terrier when she thinks she can fight a big dog: None at all.

    MS is not the only talent that is a waste of space, but the most present. I understand the other "not-so-competitive" Talents, as they all have their use. I've discussed this earlier with FotM (which has its uses and those can't be denied, it's just lacking competitiveness), but San'layn is also an example of this (literally just a no-brain passive).

    Sometimes I wish the Devs would listen to us more, really. I know that a LOT of people complained about Mind Spike, but it's still in the game. Why? We give them feedback as they want us to, and they do nothing. Except giving our Voidform a CAST TIME. *cry*

  10. #270
    I don't understand what they were even trying to do with Mind Spike in Legion. It replaces your filler, but the whole point of filler is to use less of it. In the past, Mind Spike sort of made sense as something you could use on things that die too fast to put dots on, even if that usually didn't work out very effectively. At least there were situations where you could say "yeah, this is where I'm supposed to be using this ability", but now I can't think of a single encounter where I would want this over the other options. Mind Spike is looking like Void Entropy all over again.

  11. #271
    Deleted
    Just a quick question for PvP: Melee on you = you die?
    We have absolutely nothing except for Psychic Scream to get away from them. And that's... not so effective.

    I really like the mechanics though. PvE is awesome now and when I get to cast stuff in PvP it's fun as well. But a single melee ruins my day.
    Last edited by mmocddf8d25f42; 2016-07-25 at 01:07 PM.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelo WoW View Post
    MS is not the only talent that is a waste of space, but the most present. I understand the other "not-so-competitive" Talents, as they all have their use. I've discussed this earlier with FotM (which has its uses and those can't be denied, it's just lacking competitiveness), but San'layn is also an example of this (literally just a no-brain passive).
    San'layn has it's uses, mainly for solo/outdoor content. In other words situations where you may not get to Void Form before the mob dies or guarantee that a Spirit will make it to them. Increased damage/self healing (even if negligent) works for those situations. Back to niche if you will, but there will be those who can make decent use of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angelo WoW View Post
    Sometimes I wish the Devs would listen to us more, really. I know that a LOT of people complained about Mind Spike, but it's still in the game. Why? We give them feedback as they want us to, and they do nothing. Except giving our Voidform a CAST TIME. *cry*
    I'm guessing Mind Spike is going to hold in it's current state until 7.1. I would think they have enough calendar time to fix it, but I'm guessing the class related devs are going to be mostly looking at bugs and balancing. Compared to that I would expect a talent in a row with two functional talents to fall to the bottom of the list of things to address.

    I'm sure we're not the only one in the boat of dead/core-mechanic conflicting talents and I doubt they want to introduce potentially instability at this point by trying to fix them with anything other than numbers. Hell at this point I wouldn't be surprised if the biggest non-number tweak we see prior to launch is a "Glyph of not being purple" due to the feedback on the official forums.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanisara View Post


    I'm guessing Mind Spike is going to hold in it's current state until 7.1. I would think they have enough calendar time to fix it, but I'm guessing the class related devs are going to be mostly looking at bugs and balancing. Compared to that I would expect a talent in a row with two functional talents to fall to the bottom of the list of things to address.

    I'm sure we're not the only one in the boat of dead/core-mechanic conflicting talents and I doubt they want to introduce potentially instability at this point by trying to fix them with anything other than numbers. Hell at this point I wouldn't be surprised if the biggest non-number tweak we see prior to launch is a "Glyph of not being purple" due to the feedback on the official forums.
    Just like Void Entropy, right ?
    _____________________

    Homophobia is so gay.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos View Post
    Just a quick question for PvP: Melee on you = you die?
    We have absolutely nothing except for Psychic Scream to get away from them. And that's... not so effective.
    I find Psychic Scream to be very effective against Melees, as it is with every kind of CC now. You just have to set up for it. If the melee does not trinket, you can shield/redot/Mindbender/VE/dispel during its duration, and after that you should pretty much win (Rets exlcuded, they're OP!).

    Of course we have less CC tools now, but they also have less gap closers and CC breakers.

  15. #275
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanisara View Post
    San'layn has it's uses, mainly for solo/outdoor content. In other words situations where you may not get to Void Form before the mob dies or guarantee that a Spirit will make it to them. Increased damage/self healing (even if negligent) works for those situations. Back to niche if you will, but there will be those who can make decent use of it.
    Absolutely correct I've just never been a fan of passive talents. That was the point I tried getting across. But I have absolutely no hard feelings for players who enjoy easy gameplay, and for those, San'layn is absolutely suitable!

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Angelo WoW View Post
    Absolutely correct I've just never been a fan of passive talents. That was the point I tried getting across. But I have absolutely no hard feelings for players who enjoy easy gameplay, and for those, San'layn is absolutely suitable!
    All but 3 of our talents are passive though.

  17. #277
    Could there not be some value in mind spike even at 2 to 4 stack explosions, sure holding off mind blast to get a 10 stack is a bad idea, but just weaving it in where your flays would be and allowing it to add some passive cleave might make it usefull for certain fights, more so with the void ray talent? I get the feeling that were not "meant" to stack it to 10 every time.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetori View Post
    could there not be some value in mind spike even at 2 to 4 stack explosions, sure holding off mind blast to get a 10 stack is a bad idea, but just weaving it in where your flays would be and allowing it to add some passive cleave might make it usefull, more so with the void ray talent?
    In comparison to LotV and StM, it just doesn't compare, even with Voidray.

    As you get further into Voidform, the delay between Mind Blasts gets fewer and fewer. Add into the fact that you'll at most get 2 stacks at 10+ stacks of Voidform just makes the talent dead in the water.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetori View Post
    could there not be some value in mind spike even at 2 to 4 stack explosions, sure holding off mind blast to get a 10 stack is a bad idea, but just weaving it in where your flays would be and allowing it to add some passive cleave might make it usefull, more so with the void ray talent? I get the feeling that were not "meant" to stack it to 10 ever time
    Mindspike is shit and has absolutely no value.

    The fact that people consider holding of Mind Blast to get more stacks shows how much of a trap this talent is. You do not keep Mind Blast off cooldown.

    Next the talent deals pretty much no damage whatsoever:

    Single-Target Mind Spike deals 126% SP damage and Mind Flay deals 120% for the GCD spent.
    Two-Target Mind Spike deals 168% SP damage and Mind Sear deals 138% for the GCD spent. (if you channel Mind Sear at most for 2 GCDs)
    Three-Targets Mind Spike deals 210% SP damage and Mind Sear deals 207% for the GCD spent, Mind Spike gives 4 Insanity and Mind Sear 6.

    Mind Spike is better than Mind Sear on two targets, on three targets you're better of using Mind Sear. It scales worse with targets added compared to Mind Sear, it also generates signficantly less Insanity on multi-target compared to Mind Sear.

    The spell serves absolutely no purpose - and to put it nicely: Void Entropy was excellent compared to Mind Spike.
    Last edited by Kaesebrezen; 2016-07-25 at 04:01 PM.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    In comparison to LotV and StM, it just doesn't compare, even with Voidray.

    As you get further into Voidform, the delay between Mind Blasts gets fewer and fewer. Add into the fact that you'll at most get 2 stacks at 10+ stacks of Voidform just makes the talent dead in the water.
    I mean, the damage per cast is still the same unless I missed something. The talent is clearly undertuned, but I don't understand how mind spike promotes holding mindblast outside of niche burst AoE situations (animals spawning on beastlord darmac for example) as the DPC is still the same at one stack as it is at ten stacks.

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