1. #1921
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Pure speculation mixed with a little common sense and observation of how they do things over a few years so cut me some slack:

    There are different levels of broken. It would not be unheard of that they wanted to get some real game feedback about it before changing it out. It's possible they may well have thought it was a problem but a solution might be difficult to find without being able to put some number on just how messed up it was. And determining an actual solution from a number of alternatives likely has something to do with quantifiable brokenness. If it's not as bad as people believe you might do one thing; if it's totally out of line something else. I do believe they tend to want to stay with their ideas until they can see how it goes in the actual game. It's not as if players have been totally correct in the past.
    Looking at the average player, They most likely won't get high DPS utilizing StM. Sure the potential combination of Mass Hysteria and Surrender to Madness is staggering in the right hands, but the majority of the player base doesn't raid. For those that do raid 50% of spriests will be decent with StM. So 50% of of 1 spec has the capability/drive to min/max their spec. That 50% may be higher or lower, but there are a lot of casual raiders out there, they won't use StM most likely because it is so punishing or they just don't like the playstyle, as many people have expressed here. So from a dev staind point how do you balance something that only 5%(best guess at raid participation) of the playerbase will see, and of that 5% only 50% of shadow priests will be able to utilize to their advantage?

    I doubt if you can conclude much from a beta audience that often has other things on their mind other than raiding and raid instances that are only open for short periods of time for testing. Then eliminate everyone not a shadow priest and it doesn't take a lot of imagination to think that the sample was too small to really draw conclusions. I don't know if the pre-patch was long enough to surface specifics or not but would likely lean toward not.
    This is the biggest truth and I'm honestly surprised we didn't see more nerfs to StM from the get go. The nerf from 200% to 150% was nice and nipped some stuff in the bud but blizz really backed themselves into a corner when they introduced this skill to the game.
    It's certainly not the first time that something like this has happened over the years. And yes, they stay with their design often enough past the point of sensibility but changes made often don't play like you think they should when mixed with 30+ other specs. And their initial steps often are greeted with fainting spells from players who say they'll quit or immediately re-roll without seeing how the changes will actually play out. So they go slow. I would too I think.
    Ah yes, I don't think i'll forget about Void Entropy and the waste of code that it was for quite some time. People will always threaten to quit/jump classes when their playstyle is threatened. Hell if those nerfs would have gone live, I would have benched my priest myself as I definitely wouldn't be seeing mythic EN as shadow and we didn't need a healer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Atwaru View Post
    After the suggestion from Djriff I ran my character through SimC/Beotorch and I have some questions regarding the output. I opted for default where possible.

    With SimC I'm getting a suggested DPS of 277k on a Patchwerk style fight with Beotorch it's 218k. This gap already seems significant, after switching the skill level in SimC to Good instead of Elite the average dropped to 90k. It has a harsh drop (to almost zero) after 100 seconds so maybe the simulation assumes I died? Could those numbers and large margins be the result of me doing something wrong or could there be some kind of problem withe shadow priest simulation?
    I'd check the version of SimC you're using. I download the beta version of it they post every few days as it usually has the latest round of hotfixes. That could be the difference as well. Also with Twintop retired beotorch is no longer a resource you should use since he runs/owns it and said he's done maintaining it.
    Furthermore I'm a bit confused by the normalized stat weights I get from either tool. Especially what should I make of negative numbers? Either weight would suggest that I should really, really stack up on Crit. Currently I'm at 29% Haste, 16% Crit, 47% Mastery.

    For Beotorch: 1.38 Crit, 1.00 Int, 0.88 Mastery, 0.76 Versatility, -1.03 Haste
    For SimC: 1.57 Crit, 1.00 Int, 1.18 Mastery, 1.18 Versatility, 0.28 Haste

    I'm interested in understanding those numbers while I'm already well aware that I need to work on my skills. For NHC I've been more around 100-150k for the fights.
    As I've stated before countless times you can't just toss your character in, pull stat weights, and expect coherent results. You need to do 30+ sims with different gear/talents and find the relationship between all the different stat weights that produces. Using a single sim of your toon is going to give you skewed results like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melzy View Post
    Those weights seem real fucky, personally I use the weights laid out on Melgane's guide on HowToPriest (my personal favorite).

    I'll leave them here to save you searching (these assume you are running S2M as there are separate weights for Mind Spike/LotV):

    Int = 1.00
    Crit = 1.26
    Haste = 1.78
    Mast = 1.07
    Vers = 0.94

    They're subject to change as the expansion progresses however it demonstrates just how important haste is.
    The combined weights are also in the first post of this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hetcayaya View Post
    Does anyone know what our best relic traits are? Have three relics the same ilvl that give SWP damage, Mind Blast damage and boosting VT's chance for shadowy apparitions and not sure which two to go with.
    For those 3 relics I would us VT SA chance and SW: P damage. Those scale well with mastery + Mass Hysteria while Mind Blast does not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuhloss View Post
    Can someone suggest a stat weight for mythic+ dungeons? Should I go with the LotV/MS stat weight even though I use stm, because I only use it 1-2 times depending on the dungeon and most of the time is spend killing trash. And even when I use stm i only reach like 60-70 stack anyway because the boss dies to fast depending on difficulty. Recently I started using stm on the trash before the boss if you can pull it right away and good some good results, but I don't know if its worth sacrificing trash dmg for boss dmg depending on group combination.
    I think you'd be safe just sticking with the combined weights since you swap between t100 talents so often. And since the boss is dying so quickly I'd just swap to a LotV or MS build with Void Ray.
    Quote Originally Posted by fanoos View Post
    Guys, after i simcraft my gear using askmrobot, it shows that my dps is significantly better with Mind spike and void ray than LOTV and soul Reaper .the result is really close to surrender to madness on single target fight .

    -snipped results-
    Personally I don't trust the MS/Void Ray as it's simming pretty high for me on AMR. I've also beaten the DPS AMR gives me for StM in the Single Target boss (Patchwerkk essentially) everytime I use StM, so take that for what it's worth.

    If you want to get an accurate estimate of your StM DPS, make a custom boss fight by copying the Single Target one then change the fight length to 180s. That's a 3m boss fight and while it's not entirely realistic in a raiding sense, the numbers it produces are much more accurate for StM DPS imo.

  2. #1922
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sitoy View Post
    Hey, I have managed to go the wrong path in the arifact tree (this is my path http://www.wowhead.com/artifact-calc...MFAzBgMwgDVDAQ ) Is it worth resetting them to go for CotV or should i just stick with it?
    Not worth it IMO. You're way to far into it and resetting costs you a whole "level".

  3. #1923
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sitoy View Post
    Hey, I have managed to go the wrong path in the arifact tree. Is it worth resetting them to go for CotV or should i just stick with it?
    Did it the exact same way - maybe it's better for Trash DPS in Dungeons?

  4. #1924
    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    Looking at the average player, They most likely won't get high DPS utilizing StM. Sure the potential combination of Mass Hysteria and Surrender to Madness is staggering in the right hands, but the majority of the player base doesn't raid. For those that do raid 50% of spriests will be decent with StM. So 50% of of 1 spec has the capability/drive to min/max their spec. That 50% may be higher or lower, but there are a lot of casual raiders out there, they won't use StM most likely because it is so punishing or they just don't like the playstyle, as many people have expressed here. So from a dev staind point how do you balance something that only 5%(best guess at raid participation) of the playerbase will see, and of that 5% only 50% of shadow priests will be able to utilize to their advantage?
    I feel like you and I had this same discussion a few times now on these forums where I tried to make this exact same point. Previously you seemed to lean more towards the other side, saying that you felt shadow is very easy to play now, and has a very simple rotation, etc...

    Have you changed your mind?

    I agree with everything you said in the above quote, and it was my primary concern with shadow's design since beta.
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  5. #1925
    Trinket sims have been updated again. Should be good for awhile now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee25 View Post
    I feel like you and I had this same discussion a few times now on these forums where I tried to make this exact same point. Previously you seemed to lean more towards the other side, saying that you felt shadow is very easy to play now, and has a very simple rotation, etc...
    I still feel it does. That's my opinion though.
    Have you changed your mind?
    No, but that doesn't mean I don't realize that not everyone can do it. I still feel the rotation is easy, it's quite cyclic.
    I agree with everything you said in the above quote, and it was my primary concern with shadow's design since beta.
    Ever since I heard about StM I thought it was awesome, then once it was realized how long we could maintain it, I knew mass hysteria would be a problem. It's been stated by many people that it's an issue.

  6. #1926
    Does anyone know which relic traits are best for us? I have a few different ones to choose from but not sure if it's worth getting rid of the others. Currently thinking about switching out VT shadow apparitions for VT damage and not sure if it's worth it.

  7. #1927
    Quote Originally Posted by darkxiao View Post
    Does anyone know which relic traits are best for us? I have a few different ones to choose from but not sure if it's worth getting rid of the others. Currently thinking about switching out VT shadow apparitions for VT damage and not sure if it's worth it.
    That's not worth it unless the ilvl gain is significant (like 10 ilvls).

  8. #1928
    Although there's an interesting point to be considered. I currently have two mind blast relics(by chance) so I have +25% MB damage(15 from trait plus 10 from relics). Maybe that makes haste even more valuable for me?

    Also I figured that dropping 6 item levels(overall) is better than to try to play some silly mastery build, more so with Mind spike buff. Still sucks that I'm wearing a 835 neck instead of my legendary one.

    Btw what food would be better for a panda? Haste food or fire breath food? I haven't tried fire breath food yet so how much damage overall does it do?

  9. #1929
    Silly mastery build? I'm confused where you're going with that. There is no mastery build, it's haste/crit for everything, even with the belt.

    Haste food is better IMO, you can easily test it via sim, but haste is king for us usually and you're talking about 700 haste from food, that's a lot of haste to give up.

  10. #1930
    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    Silly mastery build? I'm confused where you're going with that. There is no mastery build, it's haste/crit for everything, even with the belt.

    Haste food is better IMO, you can easily test it via sim, but haste is king for us usually and you're talking about 700 haste from food, that's a lot of haste to give up.
    I thought Mastery became a higher priority than Crit once the belt was looted. Is that not the case?

  11. #1931
    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    That's not worth it unless the ilvl gain is significant (like 10 ilvls).
    Any idea on which ones I should be looking out for or the ones that are best for us?

  12. #1932
    Quote Originally Posted by Caladia View Post
    I thought Mastery became a higher priority than Crit once the belt was looted. Is that not the case?
    I thought so to but crit was still simming better than mastery which makes sense. We have a lot of opportunities to crit.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkxiao View Post
    Any idea on which ones I should be looking out for or the ones that are best for us?
    Off the top of my head vt shadowy apparitions. Dots, vb damage, mb damage, shadow damage.

    I'm on mobile atm so can't remember them all off the top of my head.

  13. #1933
    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    Personally I don't trust the MS/Void Ray as it's simming pretty high for me on AMR. I've also beaten the DPS AMR gives me for StM in the Single Target boss (Patchwerkk essentially) everytime I use StM, so take that for what it's worth.
    I think if you took off the +/- 20% fight length variance in the simulation and then really optimized the rotation around how long the fight is, you could get the simulator to match closer to what you see in-game.

    Surrender to Madness is a talent that is tough to make a generic rotation for. Knowing the fight length (i.e., how long it takes your raid team to kill bosses, which you learn by raiding with them every week) can make a big difference in the potential damage.

    If you want, we can try recreating one of your parses in the simulator by looking at a log.
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  14. #1934
    That might fix it, for my custom boss times I did disable that. I'll give that a shot tonight and see some differences. Eitherway with the way StM is coded atm it shouldn't change fight to fight. Maybe PI needs to get the same treatment as StM so the sim can be sure it's up for StM when it's needed (roughly 80-90 seconds into StM atm).

    I can't link my log atm, but pulling my log from normal dragons would be a good one, I did a bit early than intended but everything leading up to that should be good.

  15. #1935
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    As I've stated before countless times you can't just toss your character in, pull stat weights, and expect coherent results. You need to do 30+ sims with different gear/talents and find the relationship between all the different stat weights that produces. Using a single sim of your toon is going to give you skewed results like that.
    In that case thanks for being so damn nice. I guess I'll have to invest some more time into all of this.

  16. #1936
    Quote Originally Posted by Caladia View Post
    I thought Mastery became a higher priority than Crit once the belt was looted. Is that not the case?
    Thought so to, have 50% Mastery and only 13% crit right now, but looking for haste/crit right now. I have the feeling that with enough crit AS will be better then SI, SI is a 10% chance on one dot for a free MB, generating 12 Insanity, SA has a X Chance on both dots to generate 4 Insanity, guess we will reach the point of crit where AS generates much more Insanity then SI, even with the belt.
    But it feels pretty powerful with such mastery and MH powered high dotticks

  17. #1937
    Deleted
    So on Xavius when I use S2M in the dream phase and leave with 100 stacks should not cast Voidform for the duration of LI to maintain the 100% haste buff or do you think Voidform is still better?

  18. #1938
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuhloss View Post
    So on Xavius when I use S2M in the dream phase and leave with 100 stacks should not cast Voidform for the duration of LI to maintain the 100% haste buff or do you think Voidform is still better?
    You don't leave the dream with 100 stacks of lingering insanity, you get send back to the amount of insanity you had before you got the dreamphase debuff. But in general you always want to go back into voidform no matter how many stacks of lingering you have I think.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Those top Spriest ranks on Xavius though. It's all people just full on padding the tentacles

  19. #1939
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinie View Post
    You don't leave the dream with 100 stacks of lingering insanity, you get send back to the amount of insanity you had before you got the dreamphase debuff. But in general you always want to go back into voidform no matter how many stacks of lingering you have I think.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Those top Spriest ranks on Xavius though. It's all people just full on padding the tentacles
    I'm 100% certain that i had a 100% Li buff after the dream phase. I left the dream because the 150% dmg buff expired not because i died of S2M.

  20. #1940
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuhloss View Post
    I'm 100% certain that i had a 100% Li buff after the dream phase. I left the dream because the 150% dmg buff expired not because i died of S2M.
    I left the dream under this circumstance and had the same result.

    Also, I think Tinie is wrong on Lingering Insanity. There are certain points at which you can just stay out of Voidform for a logn time. I'm certain that on Xavius, if you have 100 stacks of LI you shouldn't go into Voidform again until that's about to fall off.
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