[7.2] Legion Shadow Priest Guide and Discussion

[Deleted]

Many class tuning changes for this build (and subsequent builds) are not likely to appear directly via datamining. Tooltip values for spells should still show their new amounts properly in-game, but many of these changes are being done in a way that's less apparent through datamining.

For more clarity on why: we're getting to the point of the PTR development cycle where we're starting to make heavy changes intended for overall performance balance between classes. In the past, this would have been done by changing each affected spell individually, which can be a slow process. To allow for more rapid iteration during the PTR process, we're instead those putting changes into a passive aura for each spec. That means only 1 "spell" needs to be modified, instead of several, which allows us to make more adjustments in total per build.

Once the PTR cycle is concluded, these adjustments will most likely be moved from that passive aura into the baseline spells, but in the meantime, please be aware that what's seen via datamining may not immediately show all of the actual changes that have taken place.

Well I hope this works out...

[davesignal]

Many class tuning changes for this build (and subsequent builds) are not likely to appear directly via datamining. Tooltip values for spells should still show their new amounts properly in-game, but many of these changes are being done in a way that's less apparent through datamining.

For more clarity on why: we're getting to the point of the PTR development cycle where we're starting to make heavy changes intended for overall performance balance between classes. In the past, this would have been done by changing each affected spell individually, which can be a slow process. To allow for more rapid iteration during the PTR process, we're instead those putting changes into a passive aura for each spec. That means only 1 "spell" needs to be modified, instead of several, which allows us to make more adjustments in total per build.

Once the PTR cycle is concluded, these adjustments will most likely be moved from that passive aura into the baseline spells, but in the meantime, please be aware that what's seen via datamining may not immediately show all of the actual changes that have taken place.

Well I hope this works out...

Well, Lore just posted this:

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, this build has some fairly substantial buffs for Shadow in it. As of this moment, it looks like all that's been discovered so far (aside from the Void Bolt DoT extension going to 3 seconds) is a 10% reduction to Voidform's damage bonus. Which is probably not what you were expecting.

So, here's what's missing: a 25% flat damage increase to Mind Blast, Mind Flay, Void Bolt, Shadow Word: Pain, Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Death, Shadow Word: Void, Shadow Crash, Void Eruption, Mind Spike, Mind Sear, Shadowy Apparitions, and Void Torrent.

End result should be a pretty substantial across-the-board damage increase in this build, with the effects being slightly more noticeable outside of Voidform.

As I mentioned in the thread I linked above, we're planning to iterate on these numbers pretty rapidly, but I wanted to make sure you guys were aware of the less-apparent changes.

Seems good.

[Deleted]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, this build has some fairly substantial buffs for Shadow in it. As of this moment, it looks like all that's been discovered so far (aside from the Void Bolt DoT extension going to 3 seconds) is a 10% reduction to Voidform's damage bonus. Which is probably not what you were expecting.

So, here's what's missing: a 25% flat damage increase to Mind Blast, Mind Flay, Void Bolt, Shadow Word: Pain, Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Death, Shadow Word: Void, Shadow Crash, Void Eruption, Mind Spike, Mind Sear, Shadowy Apparitions, and Void Torrent.

End result should be a pretty substantial across-the-board damage increase in this build, with the effects being slightly more noticeable outside of Voidform.

As I mentioned in the thread I linked above, we're planning to iterate on these numbers pretty rapidly, but I wanted to make sure you guys were aware of the less-apparent changes.

[Relapses]

new PTR build and apparently now we can add time to our dots with no limit???:



it's not even a UI bug either, i legit watched it tick down the entire duration

Ah, T15 set bonus, how I missed you.

[justflayin]

Ah, T15 set bonus, how I missed you.

Definitely one of my favorite set bonuses.

[esqi]

That flat dmg increase looks pretty good as a means of smoothing the spike between 95th+ percentile and everyone else.

[l33t]

The thing is, instead of nerfing StM more and more they just could take away 20% execute damage by forcing us to choose between ToF and StM. Would solve two problems at once, the issue we have with ToF as a level 15 talent and the issue with StM in general. Sure, Mind Spike, Legacy of the Void and the level 15 talents are still pretty bad but it's a step into the right direction. Nerfing StM more and more isn't helping anyone.

All they need to do is just remove the fucking death penalty AND remake one talent to be in line with other specs' 3 min cds.

Instead, Blizz will keep runing the spec for everyone, and you aren't helping by giving them ideas. No ToF = no shadowpriest, you know. Same with execute.

[Deleted]

Combine Twist of fate with legacy of the void and replace ToF on the first row with something else that boosts aoe dmg ....

[l33t]

I swear, some of you people give worse ideas than the whole Blizzard combined.

[Nyel]

No ToF = no shadowpriest, you know. Same with execute.

You seem to not understand what's the point of having to choose between ToF and StM. 20% less damage for StM would solve the issue of it being overpowered and Blizzard could stop nerfing StM more and more. Having ToF in the 100 row gives people that dislike StM a real choice.

[Deleted]

Combine Twist of fate with legacy of the void and replace ToF on the first row with something else that boosts aoe dmg ....

I'd prefer baseling shadow crash... put StM in the row shadow crash was (yes i know that's a direct nerf to STM, since it has synergy with PI, that means you can still use StM but you won't go same stacks as with PI or even bender, still the row offers you ways to get more resources and DPS increases so the "theme" of the row remains the same). And instead of StM in the last row make another talent with about the same power as LotV/MSp so there will be actual competition between talents.
Want it or not , even with baseline SC , SP won't have the best AOE around, it maybe not be worthless or too much build around a lege (ring, i have the ring and i'm not worthless in AoE and i'm very strong at cleaves, but even with a synergy with ring and SC, you won't be the top in that department-aoe).
And SC is a helpful skill to be used on the move, where SP has problems out of VF.
Same with ToF, bake it in the spec (as it overweights the other 2 talents way too much), downscale it to 10-15% (it will still be powerfull enough because baseline), keep the other 2 talents as is... they are not bad...they are bad compared with ToF, and dunno... insert something like resource button(100ins 2 min CD or something) so the whole row- is all about resources ... all talents would be similar in power...thsi one(100ins) would be s--tbutton for STM, helping new players as well to maintain higher VF stacks.FotM gives you higher ins gains periodically and a slight DPS increase, and SW:V could be cool to use as an intermediate talent... get more ins faster than with FotM and do some dmg, could work ok in STM and in VF in general as it feels a gap where you could MF, but it is faster ...

There is no point trying to nerf spec out of StM/MH/ToF....it's not that much powerful. The point is not to make it unplayable, just to nerf the potential to do 2x Dmg any other combination of talents would do... and certainly not decrease the DPS without StM/ToF, it actually needs a buff...
That's my whole idea how it could work...
Maybe it's not the best around...But it doesn't have to be a complex solution, nor to create a mongo spec (flay aoe, flay ST, StM for anything)...it will actually create windows so if someone wants more buttons and can use them effectively he can go ahead and use them. Still StM would be better , it won't be 2x better. Moreover there would be more builds to play around...more personal taste than pure number justification...

[l33t]

You seem to not understand what's the point of having to choose between ToF and StM. 20% less damage for StM would solve the issue of it being overpowered and Blizzard could stop nerfing StM more and more. Having ToF in the 100 row gives people that dislike StM a real choice.

Sorry, I don't want to choose between having either one of talents when I already had both at the same time. We already lost Lingering Insanity, why do you want to crush us even more?

[Gorsameth]

You seem to not understand what's the point of having to choose between ToF and StM. 20% less damage for StM would solve the issue of it being overpowered and Blizzard could stop nerfing StM more and more. Having ToF in the 100 row gives people that dislike StM a real choice.

Forcing a choice between ToF and StM is only a short term band aid fix.

The problem is not the current damage StM is doing. It is the out of control scaling of StM and MH. removing ToF will decrease the damage yes. and it might bring us in line for EN but it will not solve the scaling issue and will simply postpone the problem a raid tier.

To long term fix StM you need to attack its gear scaling.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry, I don't want to choose between having either one of talents when I already had both at the same time. We already lost Lingering Insanity, why do you want to crush us even more?

The current live situation is not sustainable. something will have to change and that means SP will lose something.

[Djriff]

Honestly the direction they're going right now seems decent. It looks like StM will still be good for shorter fights, but fights around the 6m mark it's only ~20k ahead. Testing still needs to be done to confirm these changes, but it looks good so far.

Now if only they made LI baseline again >>

[Deleted]

'While S2M is active, MH is 1% not 2%'
'ToF 15% not 20% for shadow'
'LotV gains 10% dmg buff'
'Shadow Crash dmg doubled'

Noone cares about MSpike by this point so just ignore it until 8.0

[Nyel]

Forcing a choice between ToF and StM is only a short term band aid fix.

It is but it works in different ways - StM is an "execute" talent, ToF is another "execute" talent as well. It doesn't make any sense that you can take both of them. They should be in the same row because they're giving us literally the same bonus but in two different ways. You think a 20% damage decrease for StM wouldn't solve the issue? When I'm looking at logs the only Mythic boss fight were Shadow Priests are overpowered is Xavius (a ~ 40% gap is too much), on the other fights other specs catched up. And remember, 7.1.5 already nerfed StM.

Another thing: I think Power Infusion should be baseline for every Shadow Priest. It doesn't make any sense that we don't have any CD we can use unless we choose one as a talent.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly the direction they're going right now seems decent. It looks like StM will still be good for shorter fights, but fights around the 6m mark it's only ~20k ahead. Testing still needs to be done to confirm these changes, but it looks good so far.

Now if only they made LI baseline again

The thing is, why choose a kamikaze talent when it's only 20k ahead? Get rid of the "you die" component and it's okay but if it's only ahead by a small margin it's inexcusable that you die after using it.

And yes, Lingering Insanity should be baseline. It's a horrible change, maybe the worst of all in 7.1.5 made to SPs.

[davesignal]

All they need to do is just remove the fucking death penalty AND remake one talent to be in line with other specs' 3 min cds.

They're never, ever, ever going to do this. Ion made this clear when he as much as jerked off over how ~lore appropriate and class fantasy~ the talent was on the stream yesterday. I would not be surprised at all if the developer who is too married to the concept to ever get rid of it is Ion himself, at this point.

So. If the reasonable option is never, ever going to happen, then it is no longer reasonable. So you need to suggest alternatives that cater to the reality of the situation: that we are never getting rid of Surrender to Madness while Ion is the game director.

Making Twist of Fate compete with Surrender to Madness checks all the boxes. It is a compelling choice-- you want both of those talents, a lot-- and it reduces S2M damage by removing the synergy between TOF and S2M.

[Romanticide]

It is but it works in different ways - StM is an "execute" talent, ToF is another "execute" talent as well. It doesn't make any sense that you can take both of them. They should be in the same row because they're giving us literally the same bonus but in two different ways.

Having talents in different rows that combo together is a thing for all specs It makes no sense that you always have to choose one execute talent, one aoe talent, one burst talent etc.

Agree PI should be baseline along with ToF for all Priests (which we all thought was the one talent among ALL talents that would become baseline).

[kalaratic]

twist of fate should have been baseline the second 7.1.5 hit the PTR. it is beyond dumb that an execute spec needs to talent into something to make their execute stronger and it would have been something to make up for the loss of LI

[l33t]

Making Twist of Fate compete with Surrender to Madness checks all the boxes. It is a compelling choice-- you want both of those talents, a lot-- and it reduces S2M damage by removing the synergy between TOF and S2M.

That's not a reasonable offer, that is pure madness. Reasonable offer is removing absurd death tax from stm. Reasonable offer is finally making the fucking tof baseline, which it should became years ago. Reasonable offer is buffing LotV, removing mspike nonsense and giving real talent in its place, preferably burst aoe one. Castrating the spec even further so we could die even more looks beyond idiotic to me.

Also, existence of synergy between talents is why talents should exist in the first place...