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  1. #1
    Fluffy Kitten Djriff's Avatar
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    [7.2] Legion Shadow Priest Guide and Discussion

    placeholder guide


    I'm fixing everything up and will post this back up when i'm done.
    Last edited by Djriff; 2017-07-20 at 08:03 AM.

  2. #2
    Lies, lies, lies
    You love those lies
    You tell them straight
    Straight to my face
    They feel so right
    They keep you safe

    And you're so...good at it
    Oh, it comes automatic
    Lies, more lies
    I can tell they're lies
    I can see right through
    You have see-through eyes

  3. #3
    1. Your rotation list provides no details about when/where you should casting each spell. Do you lead off with Void Eruption? How? You should list rotations for different types of fights IE: single target, council style, multi target/add control. Which targets in a non ST style fight gets SWP and VT at the same time? Which ones only live long enough to use SWP? What dot uptime should you be aiming for?

    2. You don't go in depth about which talents support other talents. Why aren't you listing which talents make Surrender to Madness viable IE Power Infusion/Fortress of the Mind. The Spriest community generally agrees Mindspike isn't worth taking in most situations. So you should list which of your Level 100 tier talents will be best for which fight style. Maybe discuss a situation where Mindspike might be useful? Give new spriests some options

    3. Your build path recommends going for Sphere of Insanity first yet its damage is abysmal right now which has yet to be confirmed as a bug or not but still you're advising a build path to rush an ability with low damage. Have you tested these abilities and confirmed which ones would be best for quickly getting into raiding?

    4. Your links are broken. May be just a google docs thing.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by KalebPrime View Post
    Lies, lies, lies
    You love those lies
    You tell them straight
    Straight to my face
    They feel so right
    They keep you safe

    And you're so...good at it
    Oh, it comes automatic
    Lies, more lies
    I can tell they're lies
    I can see right through
    You have see-through eyes
    <3 Garbage. :P

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by jsutan View Post
    This guide is about as inaccurate and misinformed as I've come to expect from the mmo-c Priest forums.
    Please see the "Place Holder" at the top of the Page and the "Changelog" of the guide - it states it was last changed 2 months ago.
    Wait for the guide to be corrected. We already have a discussion about the guide in the 446 page long discussion thread and will see to it that it gets the proper talents/artifacts etc...

    And if you so please, write your own guide.
    My Priest and my Logs

  6. #6
    This guide is the same that you linked to Shadow Legion discussion, while saying that you'd update it. Also Changelog says last edit was done 1.6.16 (6/1/16 in retarded units), did you link an old version by accident?

  7. #7
    Ye lets bash the guy who is auctually willing to theorycraft a spec and make a guide FOR YOU, good job.
    I have been mainly focused on holy and abit of disc, so i can´t tell if its accurate or not. But abit more respect is in its place... Like said its says "placeholder" and alot can chance in one month. Djriff is a great player and im sure he knows his shit and a updated guide will be out when hes done.

    Myself im looking forward to it when im planning to get more into shadow! Thanks for the work u put in so far.

  8. #8
    Let's not bash our heads in here! He's taking time out of his day to make this guide, and that's a good thing!

    That being said, I'm certain you know that the guide needs some updating, especially concerning Void Eruption, and the rotations you have stated through the guide.

    Some constructive feedback for you to go off of:

    1) Roration/Priority List: YOu don't clearly state where we use a set in stone ROTATION, and/or where we refer to more of a PRIORITY list. When reading what spells to use, I therefore think of a rotation automatically (as I'm sure most players will), but in reality you meant a priority list. This confuses me for a second, and I actually have to re-read the information. It'd be nice if you could specify accordingly

    2) Your "Recommended Build Paths" seem outdated. Why do you recommend traiting Sphere of Insanity before Mass Hysteria? Mass Hysteria is like an 8%-10% damage increase, Sphere of Insanity isn't that much (might be wrong on the theorycrafting here, but I'm 100% certain Mass Hysteria is without a doubt our best trait).


    3) Relic Choices: Is Mind Shattering really that much better to relic than the flat % shadow damage increase? EVERY spell we have does shadow damage, why would I want to buff one little filler with 5% rather than every spell I have with 3%? I may be wrong here, but that's just my thought-process at the time. Or are you simply listinc all of our relics, rather than ranking them? If so - ignore 3.

    4)Macros: Needs to be updated to include Void Eruption and Void Bolt in the same macro accordingly.


    Other than that this looks like a great start imo. Please continue, and I'm sure many of us spriests would be more than happy to share insights!
    Narline |Rise -Antonidas(EU)
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  9. #9
    Fluffy Kitten Djriff's Avatar
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    Ok, first and foremost yes the guide is a bit out of date, there's been a lot of changes since my first iteration of it and I was planning on updating it all this weekend. I posted it early to get some preliminary feedback like I've gotten so far here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Narline View Post
    1) Roration/Priority List: YOu don't clearly state where we use a set in stone ROTATION, and/or where we refer to more of a PRIORITY list. When reading what spells to use, I therefore think of a rotation automatically (as I'm sure most players will), but in reality you meant a priority list. This confuses me for a second, and I actually have to re-read the information. It'd be nice if you could specify accordingly
    That's definitely a priority list. Due to the difference in gear between different players a rotation wouldn't really work. I'll definitely change that so it's more apparent.

    2) Your "Recommended Build Paths" seem outdated. Why do you recommend traiting Sphere of Insanity before Mass Hysteria? Mass Hysteria is like an 8%-10% damage increase, Sphere of Insanity isn't that much (might be wrong on the theorycrafting here, but I'm 100% certain Mass Hysteria is without a doubt our best trait).
    When I wrote those I was doing my own testing and that seemed to provide better damage. Since then they've heavily buffed our dots and they changed Sphere of Insanity, I plan on changing the build path when I make my updates this weekend.

    3) Relic Choices: Is Mind Shattering really that much better to relic than the flat % shadow damage increase? EVERY spell we have does shadow damage, why would I want to buff one little filler with 5% rather than every spell I have with 3%? I may be wrong here, but that's just my thought-process at the time. Or are you simply listinc all of our relics, rather than ranking them? If so - ignore 3.
    Honestly that's an off the cuff thing. I'm not sure how much more that flat % damage increase would be from a spell we cost very often in our rotation, especially paired with FotM. I plan on mathing that out eventually, probably on this weekends to do list as well.

    4)Macros: Needs to be updated to include Void Eruption and Void Bolt in the same macro accordingly.
    Easy update, i'll add that today.


    Other than that this looks like a great start imo. Please continue, and I'm sure many of us spriests would be more than happy to share insights!
    I would love any and all constructive feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabraham View Post
    1. Your rotation list provides no details about when/where you should casting each spell. Do you lead off with Void Eruption? How? You should list rotations for different types of fights IE: single target, council style, multi target/add control. Which targets in a non ST style fight gets SWP and VT at the same time? Which ones only live long enough to use SWP? What dot uptime should you be aiming for?
    That is a priority list good sir, i'll address those concerns in the update this weekend.

    2. You don't go in depth about which talents support other talents. Why aren't you listing which talents make Surrender to Madness viable IE Power Infusion/Fortress of the Mind. The Spriest community generally agrees Mindspike isn't worth taking in most situations. So you should list which of your Level 100 tier talents will be best for which fight style. Maybe discuss a situation where Mindspike might be useful? Give new spriests some options
    I can go more in depth on those talent choices and synergies. Can you cite some specific examples? I thought I actually covered that alright.

    3. Your build path recommends going for Sphere of Insanity first yet its damage is abysmal right now which has yet to be confirmed as a bug or not but still you're advising a build path to rush an ability with low damage. Have you tested these abilities and confirmed which ones would be best for quickly getting into raiding?
    As I mentioned above, that was under the assumption that gold traits were the ones we really wanted. Other than Mass Hysteria, this is not the case that I've found. I'll be adjusting it after some testing this weekend.

    4. Your links are broken. May be just a google docs thing.
    I haven't updated the links for MMO-C, that version of the guide is actually intended for wowhead which uses different BBCode than MMO-C does.

  10. #10
    The first few posts are basically showing what's wrong with the shadowpriest's community.

    But hey, you can't help stupid people.
    _____________________

    Homophobia is so gay.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilir View Post
    The first few posts are basically showing what's wrong with the shadowpriest's community.

    But hey, you can't help stupid people.
    I felt my critique was pretty constructive?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    I can go more in depth on those talent choices and synergies. Can you cite some specific examples? I thought I actually covered that alright.
    You don't mention StM until you actually get to the talent and you don't list what talents synergize well well with it.

    From the guide " If you need to push a phase in a boss fight, Surrender to Madness is the talent for you. Otherwise you want to use Legacy of the Void. Mind Spike throws a lot of awkwardness into the rotation that makes the talent more hassle than it’s worth."

    That's about as in depth as you go into StM unless I missed something.

  12. #12
    Thanks @Djriff, keep up god work friend! (since it is obvious that the guide requires update, you know )


    Quote Originally Posted by Ilir View Post
    The first few posts are basically showing what's wrong with the shadowpriest's community.

    But hey, you can't help stupid people.
    Hey, can't demand too much from people with less than 10 posts
    "Patch 7.2 is the biggest content patch ever created by Blizzard" bwahahahahahahaha thanks for a good laugh guys, yeah, alongside with 6.1, aha

  13. #13
    Fluffy Kitten Djriff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabraham View Post
    I felt my critique was pretty constructive?
    It was and I appreciate it. I don't think that was meant towards you.


    You don't mention StM until you actually get to the talent and you don't list what talents synergize well well with it.

    From the guide " If you need to push a phase in a boss fight, Surrender to Madness is the talent for you. Otherwise you want to use Legacy of the Void. Mind Spike throws a lot of awkwardness into the rotation that makes the talent more hassle than it’s worth."

    That's about as in depth as you go into StM unless I missed something.
    Ah I see the confusion. Something I want to do is a small section about talent synergies but I wasn't quite sure where to put it. At the time when I wrote about StM there wasn't a lot of discussion on exactly how to use it. I'll expand on that further now that a lot more time and discussion has come.

    For example when I wrote up the talents it wasn't exactly clear if ToF or FotM was better, but it was universally agreed that SW: Void was not the talent to pick. Now that we have more info, have seen some raid testing and logs and have some discussion about it, I feel more confident about writing what situation to use either of them.

    Keep in mind that my guide isn't targeted at just raiding, but all PvE aspects of the game. I'll do my best to explain what talents are best in different scenarios as well as play styles.

    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Thanks @Djriff, keep up god work friend! (since it is obvious that the guide requires update, you know )
    Thanks and I appreciate it

  14. #14
    Some of it is incredibly inaccurate, what's wrong with people calling it out for that? Just because the one posting it is a moderator doesn't mean that criticizing it is not allowed. Just because someone takes the time to write a guide doesn't mean that they should be protected from criticism. A guide on a big site like this should be considered to give starting people good advice, not steer them in the wrong direction. The fact that the guide was posted despite knowing that it was horribly out of date seems incredibly lazy to me, and some of the conclusions don't seem to be based on anything but guesswork.

    The analysis of the level 90 talent row is completely wrong. Saying that Mind Spike works well with Void Ray is looking for synergies where none exist. Void Torrent does not snapshot with your haste at all. As mentioned by a couple of people the artifact path suggested is terrible and outdated. What's the point of giving a high survivability route for PvE - not to mention giving the wrong survivability route? What are you basing your stat weights on? Describing Vampiric Embrace as a raidwide cooldown is misleading. The solo questing paragraph describes shadow as a durable, tanky caster, when the opposite is the case - shadow just has a lot of self healing to compensate for that (in PvE).

    I'm sorry, but the guide still needs a lot of work. I think releasing it to the public in this outdated state was a mistake, and it should've been nothing but expected for people to rip into it like this. I hope you can improve the guide before Legion arrives.

  15. #15
    The Unstoppable Force Connal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilir View Post
    The first few posts are basically showing what's wrong with the shadowpriest's community.

    But hey, you can't help stupid people.
    You could also make the case that it is exactly how a void worshiping insane priest would react to being told how to act by a different void worshiping insane priest. Of course I could just be looking at it with a glass half full POV... lol... /steps back into the shadows



  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Isentropy View Post
    Some of it is incredibly inaccurate, what's wrong with people calling it out for that? Just because the one posting it is a moderator doesn't mean that criticizing it is not allowed. Just because someone takes the time to write a guide doesn't mean that they should be protected from criticism. A guide on a big site like this should be considered to give starting people good advice, not steer them in the wrong direction. The fact that the guide was posted despite knowing that it was horribly out of date seems incredibly lazy to me, and some of the conclusions don't seem to be based on anything but guesswork.

    The analysis of the level 90 talent row is completely wrong. Saying that Mind Spike works well with Void Ray is looking for synergies where none exist. Void Torrent does not snapshot with your haste at all. As mentioned by a couple of people the artifact path suggested is terrible and outdated. What's the point of giving a high survivability route for PvE - not to mention giving the wrong survivability route? What are you basing your stat weights on? Describing Vampiric Embrace as a raidwide cooldown is misleading. The solo questing paragraph describes shadow as a durable, tanky caster, when the opposite is the case - shadow just has a lot of self healing to compensate for that (in PvE).

    I'm sorry, but the guide still needs a lot of work. I think releasing it to the public in this outdated state was a mistake, and it should've been nothing but expected for people to rip into it like this. I hope you can improve the guide before Legion arrives.
    All of this, plus the whole "if you don't like it write your own!" comment doesn't really fly. It's not a matter of liking it or not, it's a matter of you're providing a guide read by thousands of people with factually incorrect information and trying to present it as something definitive. It is far from that.

    There is nothing wrong with trying things in game and saying "I think this is working better than that", but that is not theorycrafting. That is just winging it. If you have math to prove your assertions or assumptions, or you have sims to validate that data, then provide it, else you're just guessing. If you want to have a discussion about 'x' being better than 'y', then it shouldn't be posted as a guide, it should be posted as a question or for discussion.

    I realize this expansion is supposed to be about options but there will always be a "best". A guide needs to present facts and accuracies, not experiences and assumptions.

  17. #17
    What I meant was: It was talked about before that the guide is inaccurate (in the other thread - that that was overlooked by some is natural, so I apologize for my post). The comments ripping the guide for being inaccurate were uncalled for, as the guide is unfinished. Maybe that should be disclosed in the first post. There should be criticism, and things pointed out - yes, but the first three posts weren't all that much better than flaming.


    Now on to feedback:

    1. Formatting: Please consider giving f.e. the specific talents you are talking about their own line in the document, or bolden their names or something. That makes it easier for new readers to identify the points they are looking for.

    2. Talents:
    I think there should be pictures or something in the guide? Did you talk about including them? I can't recall.

    Level 15:
    Not much to talk about, as ToF is already king and will probably be for all eternity,... JK.
    ToF could be explained better (gaming the system with proccing it on adds), FotM is alright for single target and that it remains to be seen if it can be at all competitive, SW: V is about the same as FotM. You could add that it is to be seen what the sims say.

    Level 30:
    Not much to talk about either, although giving people the option to use Mania in fights where they use StM is quite alright, you won't have time to shield or heal yourself either way and if you can move out of stuff faster you don't die... could be alright on high stacks in some weird situations. Wouldn't write it off completely just yet.

    Level 45:
    Personal choice. Alright.

    Level 60:
    Good enough. You could elaborate on Reaper of Souls more, as you may snipe ToF from short living adds or something.

    Level 75:
    Here the discussion in the other thread comes to fruition: San'layn will gain value with high mastery and StM, as does AS with higher crit and StM and general Voidform uptime. This section needs the most attention I feel, as it is one of the few "choice rows" for raiding.

    Level 90:
    You could say that Shadow Crash has it's place now I feel, it works and could be useful in dungeons or on tight AoE fights. Remains to be seen. I wouldn't write it off. Power Infusion is also nice with a high stacking StM and can prolong your life.

    Level 100:
    This talent row is articulated awkwardly. You could look into that, as Legacy of the Void is only king when learning fights or going for world quests and dungeons. StM should also be described not only as "pushing a phase" but as an execute talent, fighting against a timer and the bosses health bar. This row needs the most work I feel.


    In general, there could be two to three different "talents for example situation" beneath the rows, one for example depicting a "dungeon-set", a "raid-set", a "world-quest-set".
    Could look like: "Raid-Set": ToF, B&S, Mind Bomb, RoS, AS, Mindbender, StM.
    This should of course have a disclaimer like "not applicable for every single situation, but a general idea what to take"


    3. Artifact path:

    We did talk about that in the other thread, but I think we agree that Sphere of Insanity is not the way to go at all.

    This build: Click
    Or this build: Click

    should be what we are going for first. Then the other way around until it looks like:

    This

    The choice is with the player if they want the raid performance trait or the one that is better for dungeons and generally not that bad on single target. You also get your first gold dragon earlier with the second build.
    But the path written in the guide should be fixed, as that discredits the whole thing as of now.

    4. Relic choices:

    There isn't a "highest damage" for most of the expansion I feel - you take what gives you the highest amount of +ilvl on your weapon (if it isn't like only +1 ilvl and one trait you gain is survivability and the other is damage). This should be considered and written down. Take highest itemlevel if the bonus from the trait doesn't outweigh the ilvl.

    5. Stat priority:

    This isn't right. In this section there should be talk about what each stat does, how much of the stat at 110 it takes for 1% of each stat, how different talents influence our stats. This is of course down to sims mostly.
    Haste>Crit>Mastery as a general rule of thumb should be alright - Mastery does gain a lot of weight though with shorter fight, councilfights, adds you can dot and is basically StM-heaven. Thus you shouldn't give only the "one-true-king" answer in the stat priority section. Could even be made into an "advanced mechanics" section.

    6. Gear & Legendarys:

    Links and stuff are not working, but you already mentioned fixing that. There could be a description for each legendary and cases where this specific legendary could be useful. Good legendaries are those that increase DPS. Bad legendarys are all other legendaries. (JK, but they are, in most cases, strictly worse, from a raid PoV)

    Without links, this section looks bare. Gemming & Enchanting could be explained like or do the links already show that? If so, nevermind this:

    Gem X (+250 Haste) - cheaper
    Gem Y (+350 Haste) - best

    Enchant X (increases X for Y amount for W secs) - best
    Last edited by Kis; 2016-07-15 at 07:13 PM.
    My Priest and my Logs

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kis View Post
    What I meant was: It was talked about before that the guide is inaccurate (in the other thread - that that was overlooked by some is natural, so I apologize for my post). The comments ripping the guide for being inaccurate were uncalled for, as the guide is unfinished. Maybe that should be disclosed in the first post. There should be criticism, and things pointed out - yes, but the first three posts weren't all that much better than flaming.
    Then why release it to the public already? This is basically asking other people to help complete the guide, way beyond the point of just giving feedback on it. If you need an extra set of eyes, then you can ask a number of people in private to take a look at it. Throwing it out in the open knowing that it's outdated is asking for those types of replies, as unconstructive as they were.

  19. #19
    I don't think they're uncalled for at all. Whether it's a WIP or not (or disclaimed as such) doesn't really matter, a guide in the state that this one is in is not in a state ready to be consumed by the people that visit this forum, especially since it contains gross inaccuracies and misinformation (as already noted). The kind of information in this guide is the same kind of information that people here are going to consume and then parrot and a large part of why a lot of more knowledgeable people avoid these forums entirely.

    I mean, if the last update was a month ago which was like 10+ builds ago, it really shouldn't have been posted, or at least not without being vetted. I'm not really sure what the goal of posting it in this state is -- Was it to generate discussion/crowdsource? If so, don't post it as a guide (even WIP), it's not yet. Was this just the guide equivalent of "FIRST!" posts? There's no glory, especially if it's wrong. Was it rushed simply because people are starting to get impatient with the prepatch coming in a few days and Legion fast approaching? If so, be patient. Stuff isn't figured out yet, but it will be. Or you could do what most of us are doing on prepatch is winging it and using intuition to tell you how to play. I haven't played Beta as much as some people but there is enough information and discussion out there to be able to just wing it in prepatch, while figuring out the class for Legion launch/raids.

    Anyway, don't want to be disrespectful or anything and i certainly don't want him to just give up and say "f it". Just clean it up and vet it a little better before prepatch and make sure it's good before Legion.
    Last edited by jsutan; 2016-07-15 at 06:54 PM. Reason: *last para*

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jsutan View Post
    Anyway, don't want to be disrespectful or anything and i certainly don't want him to just give up and say "f it". Just clean it up and vet it a little better before prepatch and make sure it's good before Legion.
    I'd like to be clear that this is how I feel as well.

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