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  1. #21
    The part where u said "2 Dreadstalkers are ALWAYS better than 4 Wild Imps" that is faults. Dreadstalkers damage cannot compare to imps within the course of a 5-6 min fight. Even if you only summon 1 set of 4 imps every 15 seconds when Dreadstalkers is off CD it cannot equal up to the damage of the imps.
    Last edited by Mrinurhead; 2016-07-19 at 03:45 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrinurhead View Post
    The part where u said "2 Dreadstalkers are ALWAYS better than 4 Wild Imps" that is faults. Dreadstalkers damage cannot compare to imps within the course of a 5-6 min fight. Even if you only summon 1 set of 4 imps every 15 seconds when Dreadstalkers is off CD it cannot equal up to the damage of the imps.
    First; Wild Imps will be obviously more damage over that much time just based on the sheer number of Wild Imps you will summon vs the number of Dreadstalkers you cast (You can at most get 48 total Dreadstalkers, not casts but total number of them, throughout a 6 minute fight VS hundreds of Wild Imps).

    Second; When you compare casts/summons you can't compare something that costs 2 Soul Shards to something you are casting 4 Soul Shards for, unfortunately that's not really a fair comparison since you cannot cast Dreadstalkers with more than 2 Soul Shards at any given point. In terms of DPET (Damage Per Execute Time), Dreadstalkers blow Imps out of the water. This spreadsheet by Asyntax compares the damage of some pet abilities, what you want to look at there are the sections for Wild Imps and Dreadstalkers (the damage they deal is what you're comparing, since it's 1 Wild Imp vs 1 Dreadstalker there). Using the first character for sake of this example you can clearly see that over the course of their durations comparing 1 Wild Imp to 1 Dreadstalker you get something like this;
    Wild Imp, 12s of Fel Firebolt: 3200 damage per cast (assuming 2s cast/12s duration = 6 casts) you get 19200 damage for 1 Soul Shard.
    Dreadstalker, 12s of Autoattack (normalized attack speed of 1s + Dreadbite): 6900 damage per autoattack (1s auto attack/12s = 12 attacks) you get 82800 damage + 29600 damage from Dreadbite and you get 112400 damage for 1 Soul Shard.

    So in terms of DPET (which can also be thought of for us, Damage per Soul Shard Spent) Dreadstalkers blow away Wild Imps without a shadow of a doubt (1 Dreadstalker is about 5.85x better than 1 Wild Imp).

    Thirdly (just because I have it quoted); You go down the left side of the Artifact tree because they are all DPS traits compared to the right side which has some DPS trats and some non DPS traits and to maximize damage you go to the left since well....it's all damage.

    TL;DR

    Imps 'look' a lot better because you cast a TON more of them than you do Dreadstalkers.

  3. #23
    Field Marshal Vexenar's Avatar
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    Take this;
    My love, my anger, and all of my frustration for Blizzard.

    May it serve as fuel for the bouncy road ahead.

  4. #24
    At first I thought the title said Not a Demonology guide, was funny at the time

    But yeah , well done.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    First; Wild Imps will be obviously more damage over that much time just based on the sheer number of Wild Imps you will summon vs the number of Dreadstalkers you cast (You can at most get 48 total Dreadstalkers, not casts but total number of them, throughout a 6 minute fight VS hundreds of Wild Imps).

    Second; When you compare casts/summons you can't compare something that costs 2 Soul Shards to something you are casting 4 Soul Shards for, unfortunately that's not really a fair comparison since you cannot cast Dreadstalkers with more than 2 Soul Shards at any given point. In terms of DPET (Damage Per Execute Time), Dreadstalkers blow Imps out of the water. This spreadsheet by Asyntax compares the damage of some pet abilities, what you want to look at there are the sections for Wild Imps and Dreadstalkers (the damage they deal is what you're comparing, since it's 1 Wild Imp vs 1 Dreadstalker there). Using the first character for sake of this example you can clearly see that over the course of their durations comparing 1 Wild Imp to 1 Dreadstalker you get something like this;
    Wild Imp, 12s of Fel Firebolt: 3200 damage per cast (assuming 2s cast/12s duration = 6 casts) you get 19200 damage for 1 Soul Shard.
    Dreadstalker, 12s of Autoattack (normalized attack speed of 1s + Dreadbite): 6900 damage per autoattack (1s auto attack/12s = 12 attacks) you get 82800 damage + 29600 damage from Dreadbite and you get 112400 damage for 1 Soul Shard.

    So in terms of DPET (which can also be thought of for us, Damage per Soul Shard Spent) Dreadstalkers blow away Wild Imps without a shadow of a doubt (1 Dreadstalker is about 5.85x better than 1 Wild Imp).

    Thirdly (just because I have it quoted); You go down the left side of the Artifact tree because they are all DPS traits compared to the right side which has some DPS trats and some non DPS traits and to maximize damage you go to the left since well....it's all damage.

    TL;DR

    Imps 'look' a lot better because you cast a TON more of them than you do Dreadstalkers.
    I am not saying in a actually 6 min fight, but you are missing what I am saying maybe if I give you a bit of homework to do. Go infront of a training mode dummy any level and do EXACTLY THIS:
    Everytime you cast "Summon Dreadstalkers" cast a 4 shard Hand of Gul'Dan
    you can Empower them if you wish.
    15 seconds later cast "Summon Dreadstalkers" cast a 4 shard Hand of Gul'Dan
    and if you Empower them the first time do so here
    15 seconds later cast "Summon Dreadstalkers" cast a 4 shard Hand of Gul'Dan
    and if you Empower them the first time do so here
    15 seconds later cast "Summon Dreadstalkers" cast a 4 shard Hand of Gul'Dan
    and if you Empower them the first time do so here
    http://imgur.com/ubiDlp3 <---I cast Empowerment
    http://imgur.com/JJJXBYI <--- I did not cast Empowerment
    so how do you think Dreadstalkers do more Damage than Imps

    Oh and that was for a min a piece, for every time I cast Summon Dreadstalkers I summon 4 imps

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrinurhead View Post
    I am not saying in a actually 6 min fight, but you are missing what I am saying maybe if I give you a bit of homework to do. Go infront of a training mode dummy any level and do EXACTLY THIS:
    Everytime you cast "Summon Dreadstalkers" cast a 4 shard Hand of Gul'Dan
    you can Empower them if you wish.
    15 seconds later cast "Summon Dreadstalkers" cast a 4 shard Hand of Gul'Dan
    and if you Empower them the first time do so here
    15 seconds later cast "Summon Dreadstalkers" cast a 4 shard Hand of Gul'Dan
    and if you Empower them the first time do so here
    15 seconds later cast "Summon Dreadstalkers" cast a 4 shard Hand of Gul'Dan
    and if you Empower them the first time do so here
    http://imgur.com/ubiDlp3 <---I cast Empowerment
    http://imgur.com/JJJXBYI <--- I did not cast Empowerment
    so how do you think Dreadstalkers do more Damage than Imps

    Oh and that was for a min a piece, for every time I cast Summon Dreadstalkers I summon 4 imps
    Just curious to see what you get
    Last edited by Mrinurhead; 2016-07-19 at 09:55 PM.

  6. #26
    Best races: Orc or Troll??

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrinurhead View Post
    snip
    You're looking at this in a vacuum. Obviously on a fight, you don't ONLY cast Dreadstalkers OR a 4 shard HoG. You cast Dreadstalker, have two shards left over, then a few seconds later you are casting a 4 shard HoG.

    You have to look at it at damage per soul shard, in which case Dreadstalkers is obviously superior. (30-50% more)

    Anyway, it's pretty obvious four Wild Imps will outdps two Dreadstalkers (ie. four shards will out DPS two shards, but then you're comparing a 'four shard' ability to a 'two shard' ability. If you really wanted to compare the two then you would compare Call Dreadstalker + 2shard HoG to a 4 shard HoG, in which case the first set of abilities would be more superior to the second.



    Also in your example the difference isn't even that off, I don't think you were adding the Dread Bite ability from the Dreadstalker. In fact when you don't cast empowerment, the Dreadstalkers actually do more DPS than the imps.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrinurhead View Post
    http://imgur.com/ubiDlp3 <---I cast Empowerment
    http://imgur.com/JJJXBYI <--- I did not cast Empowerment
    so how do you think Dreadstalkers do more Damage than Imps
    In the first image you are doing 617.8k with the Dreadstalkers compared to 634.6k with wild imps. In the second cast you did 317.9k with dreadstalkers compared to 282.9k with wild imps. One example has them doing slightly less and the other has them doing slightly more. You need a bigger sample size. Also did you have improved dreadstalkers? As that will inflate the imp damage with every cds cast.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  9. #29
    Herald of the Titans MrHappy's Avatar
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    the class trinket for demonology seems a lot better now. 56% chance for HoG to cast 3 extra imps.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrinurhead View Post
    snip
    As others have said already (and as I said previously) comparing a 4 Shard ability to a 2 Shard ability is not how you compare damage. You also did not include Dreadbite as part of Dreadstalker damage, even though in my other post I explained, with numbers to back it up, why Dreadstalkers are better DPET than Wild Imps.

    Doing your little test really won't prove anything one way or another since it is 1 test in a pool of thousands of options.

    The other thing to consider is that this guide is not meant for pre-patch and it is exclusively for Legion (as I stated in the FAQ section as well). So if you're talking about live WoW and not Beta Legion WoW then we haven't been on the same page this whole time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefury View Post
    Best races: Orc or Troll??
    Couldn't tell you, probably Troll though - dat Haste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taiyoken View Post
    You're looking at this in a vacuum. Obviously on a fight, you don't ONLY cast Dreadstalkers OR a 4 shard HoG. You cast Dreadstalker, have two shards left over, then a few seconds later you are casting a 4 shard HoG.

    You have to look at it at damage per soul shard, in which case Dreadstalkers is obviously superior. (30-50% more)

    Anyway, it's pretty obvious four Wild Imps will outdps two Dreadstalkers (ie. four shards will out DPS two shards, but then you're comparing a 'four shard' ability to a 'two shard' ability. If you really wanted to compare the two then you would compare Call Dreadstalker + 2shard HoG to a 4 shard HoG, in which case the first set of abilities would be more superior to the second.



    Also in your example the difference isn't even that off, I don't think you were adding the Dread Bite ability from the Dreadstalker. In fact when you don't cast empowerment, the Dreadstalkers actually do more DPS than the imps.
    Correct. I already tried to explain that in my previous post but seems it was lost to the winds. It's all about that DPET, baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    In the first image you are doing 617.8k with the Dreadstalkers compared to 634.6k with wild imps. In the second cast you did 317.9k with dreadstalkers compared to 282.9k with wild imps. One example has them doing slightly less and the other has them doing slightly more. You need a bigger sample size. Also did you have improved dreadstalkers? As that will inflate the imp damage with every cds cast.
    Also correct, one sample size (or even 10) is not enough to form a solid base to stand on (try hundreds to thousands for the right base) for this issue. Unfortunately at this point however if the user choses to still not believe the actual numbers then that's their own choice.

  11. #31
    Overall, with some bugs and such on first night of the patch wasn't horrible. I felt Demo had its place on most fights, other than Hellfire Assault where everything died too fast.

    The consistent dps from Demo, I can only hope blizzard doesn't nerf or mess with it to ruin the spec.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

    Thats one of the parses from Mythic if anyone is interested.

  12. #32
    Stood in the Fire Smog's Avatar
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    @Woz, is this the place to talk about your WeakAuras or would you prefer it taken to PM? 95% functional, but getting some wonky errors occasionally (plus imp count is broken? )

  13. #33
    The Patient Slashkill's Avatar
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    What's the optimal time to use Implosion? I'm using it basically every time I have 4 shards and Dreadstalkers out

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Slashkill View Post
    What's the optimal time to use Implosion? I'm using it basically every time I have 4 shards and Dreadstalkers out
    You should use it when the imps are about to expire, so you get value out of their felbolts (name?).

    If there are short lived adds you could obviously summon..explode..move on.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slashkill View Post
    What's the optimal time to use Implosion? I'm using it basically every time I have 4 shards and Dreadstalkers out
    Depends on AoE vs single target.

    For ST:

    Optimal: Combo it with HoG. Say you have 4 imps up already... cast your next HoG and instantly use Implosion within the 0.8s window before the new imps spawn. That way, your 4 old imps will implode and buff new imps with The Expendables. The new imps won't implode, and this is exactly what you want. Keep doing this together with your normal ST rotation.

    If you don't have time for a HoG before your current set of imps disappear, just make sure you implode them just before they despawn.

    It's a lot to keep track of together with everything else, but yeah. It'll come naturally eventually.


    For burst AoE I'm not 100% sure, but I tend to (excluding the obvious with DE, GoServ: Felguard + spin + infernal etc) forsake dreadstalkers and basically just HoG - Implode - HoG - Implode. Seems to do the trick.

    Sustained AoE is basically the same idea as ST, I reckon.

  16. #36
    Scarab Lord Zelk's Avatar
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    Haven't had time to read through everything but this looks great. Thanks Not, you clearly put a lot of effort into this.
    Last edited by Zelk; 2016-07-20 at 04:08 PM.

  17. #37
    If anyone got any idea how to configure tell me when to track the different pets and their timer + buff
    or another add on to track pet?

    i'll take !

    I'm sorry but zinin's add on is just not good at all for me

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberthug32 View Post
    Overall, with some bugs and such on first night of the patch wasn't horrible. I felt Demo had its place on most fights, other than Hellfire Assault where everything died too fast.

    The consistent dps from Demo, I can only hope blizzard doesn't nerf or mess with it to ruin the spec.

    Thats one of the parses from Mythic if anyone is interested.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
    Isn't that distorted by the T18 and trinket though? Look at the damage breakdown, unless I'm wrong, 30% of the damage was from the demons summoned by your tier armour bonus (the ones that proc off imp firebolts), probably quite a lot from the three extra imps from the class trinket too

    The way that T18 and class trinket synergise with redesigned demonology is broken six ways to Sunday and is in no way indicative of how good demo is. Without those gear crutches it's going to be bottom of the totem pole - destroy is reckoned to be the strongest spec overall and look where the destro lock was for damage

  19. #39
    Sweet guide, dude!

    Will you be including ~Seconds for pre-pull, including Pre-Pot?
    Also, am I crazy or is Demonic Empowerment being affected by Pandemic and should that be included in the guide?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Tollo View Post
    Sweet guide, dude!

    Will you be including ~Seconds for pre-pull, including Pre-Pot?
    Also, am I crazy or is Demonic Empowerment being affected by Pandemic and should that be included in the guide?
    I'll update the openers to include that sure.

    And Demonic Empowerment does Pandemic (it's included in the Mechanics section).

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