how many Elf's Out there ?!

[Zulkhan]

Luckily, I know a way to cheer you up. Hot Legion news: Vereesa is in Hunter Class Order Hall!

Great news indeed! The "bad" news is that I'll most likely go SV/BM in Legion, avoiding to touch the MM Artifact weapon even with a stick.

[Traveler Voltin]

Elves are just trolls.

[Al Gorefiend]

Too damn many. And Demon Hunters aren't even released yet.

Who's ready for those LFRs with 22 blood elf players dancing around and comparing transmogs during boss fights? /grumpytroll

[Azahel]

So, are nagas and Satyrs counting as elves or not?

[steelballfc]

So, are nagas and Satyrs counting as elves or not?

i don't believe so

[Shibito]

inb4 "not enough high elves to be a playable race"

In before " we damand high elf playable race"

[Koryn123]

There are Night Elves, Blood Elves, High Elves, Naga, and Nightborne.

The Highborne are Night Elves, just the aristocratic upper class of Night Elves. No biological difference. Bill Gates is still a human just like me.

The Night Elves were Dark Trolls who were mutated by the energies of the Well of Eternity.

The High Elves' change is a bit confusing, as different sources tell it differently.

Their WoWPedia page (and I assume it draws from in-game books you can find and read about the Rise of Quel'thalas) says in regards to the time around them moving away from Tirisfal because of the madness caused by Zakajz the Corruptor who was sleeping in Tyr's Tomb

"Around this time, they had become completely severed from the life-giving energy of the Well of Eternity. This meant that they were vulnerable to the elements and had not received immortality from Nozdormu and the World Tree. They had shrunk in height and their skin had become a peach hue similar to most dwarves and humans."

But the full-color prequel comic in the Sunwell Trilogy depicts Dath'Remar and his fellows as Night Elves until they arrive in Quel'thalas and create the Sunwell with one of Illidan's vials of water from the Well of Eternity. And on Dath'Remar's WoWPedia page, it says

"That day, the high elven race was born, the energies of the great well immediately altering the elves' appearance from their night elven forebears."

So it's not exactly known whether it was being cut off from the energies of Nordrassil blessed by the Aspects, or being mutated again by the Sunwell that caused their change in appearance.

Personally, as the Sunwell Trilogy came out more recently than the in-game books from Vanilla (and it's the only thing from Richard A. Knaak that I actually like as it was the first WoW lore I ever read and made Blood Elves my favorite lore), I'd go with the latter explanation shown in that manga of the Sunwell mutating them.

The Blood Elves are exactly the same physically as High Elves. If a woman is addicted to some drug throughout her pregnancy, her baby will also be addicted, but that doesn't mean they're some different species because I'm not affected by an addiction like that.

"Blood Elf" is just a name given to their people by Kael'thas, their rightful ruler, not under any Legion influence at the time, and perfectly legitimate. Today's High Elves only resumed calling themselves that when Rommath brought back a means to sate their addiction to magic and keep their strength up so they could more effectively survive against the Scourge in a zombie apocalypse, and today's High Elves didn't like the idea of killing an animal to derive nourishment from it. They didn't want to be associated with their brethren who were killing animals for nutrients, so Lor'themar was forced to banish them for disobeying their prince's orders and being unwilling to do what was necessary to carry their own weight.

Anyway, the High Elves that were banished, which was a small group that were in Quel'thalas during this time, and thus the only ones who suffered from Lor'themar's decision, led by Ranger-Lord Renthar Hawkspear, resumed their old name because they were dumb and saw Kael'thas and Lor'themar as having betrayed them.

The High Elf Farstriders that were stationed at Quel'Danil Lodge simply couldn't get to Quel'thalas in time to help, and either ignored Kael'thas' order for all Elves to return to Quel'thalas, or were like Renthar Hawkspear, and went back to their lodge after Lor'themar banished elves who refused to get with the program. The Hinterlands were relatively safe, and they'd lived there for so long, so they saw no reason to change. Kinda selfish of them to abandon their duty to protect the lives and freedoms of their people, but whatever.

The High Elves living in Allerian Stronghold as part of the Sons of Lothar were in Outland during the schism, and came back, and were like "We've been friends living with the Alliance people in the Sons of Lothar for like 20 years, so we're not gonna fight their friends in Azeroth, but we also have no loyalty or obligation to Stormwind, which was destroyed before we even joined the Alliance, and wasn't rebuilt until after we were through the portal, so we're not going to become blind zealots and fight against our brethren for a king who was like 9 when we left." So they're basically the most neutral, level-headed of the High Elves. Not passionate enough about the current Alliance to blindly serve its king, but not so callous that they'd betray their friends in the Sons of Lothar to blindly serve the Horde's Warchief, whose interests are not always aligned with those of Quel'thalas or its people.

The High Elves living in Dalaran that eventually became the Silver Covenant deserve the least sympathy. They were living comfortable and safe behind a super magic bubble shield, with humans and gnomes unaffected by any addiction withdrawals to protect them while they lay in bed and got through it in a magical city, likely with access to plenty of mana crystals to wean themselves off. These are the whiny entitled brats who think they deserve something because they have blue eyes, or because they know someone who's done something worthwhile, in Vereesa's case. They have no legitimate reason to hate the Blood Elves as much as they do. They didn't suffer at their hands when Lor'themar banished Renthar and his rangers. The only thing they have is that the Blood Elves are friends with the enemies of the High Elves' friends.

So all those groups resumed calling themselves High Elves because they didn't like their kin for whatever reason, some better than others. But they're still the same race, and the only difference is a political one. The Silver Covenant are just as barbaric toward animals as they may claim the Blood Elves to be. They also allow Warlocks in their ranks, so fel isn't a problem with them either. Literally the only thing is their political views.

The Nightborne were similarly mutated by the energies of the Nightwell.

The Naga were mutated by the Old Gods, but one could say they're some form of elf. There's still apparently some slight resemblance, according to books.

But the High Elves and Blood Elves are not different species. They haven't been changed so dramatically. By that logic, a human that's a warlock is a different species from a human that's just some farmer.

[Alanar]

There are Night Elves, Blood Elves, High Elves, Naga, and Nightborne.

The Highborne are Night Elves, just the aristocratic upper class of Night Elves. No biological difference. Bill Gates is still a human just like me.

The Night Elves were Dark Trolls who were mutated by the energies of the Well of Eternity.

The High Elves' change is a bit confusing, as different sources tell it differently.

Their WoWPedia page (and I assume it draws from in-game books you can find and read about the Rise of Quel'thalas) says in regards to the time around them moving away from Tirisfal because of the madness caused by Zakajz the Corruptor who was sleeping in Tyr's Tomb
But the full-color prequel comic in the Sunwell Trilogy depicts Dath'Remar and his fellows as Night Elves until they arrive in Quel'thalas and create the Sunwell with one of Illidan's vials of water from the Well of Eternity. And on Dath'Remar's WoWPedia page, it says

So it's not exactly known whether it was being cut off from the energies of Nordrassil blessed by the Aspects, or being mutated again by the Sunwell that caused their change in appearance.

Personally, as the Sunwell Trilogy came out more recently than the in-game books from Vanilla (and it's the only thing from Richard A. Knaak that I actually like as it was the first WoW lore I ever read and made Blood Elves my favorite lore), I'd go with the latter explanation shown in that manga of the Sunwell mutating them.

The Blood Elves are exactly the same physically as High Elves. If a woman is addicted to some drug throughout her pregnancy, her baby will also be addicted, but that doesn't mean they're some different species because I'm not affected by an addiction like that.

"Blood Elf" is just a name given to their people by Kael'thas, their rightful ruler, not under any Legion influence at the time, and perfectly legitimate. Today's High Elves only resumed calling themselves that when Rommath brought back a means to sate their addiction to magic and keep their strength up so they could more effectively survive against the Scourge in a zombie apocalypse, and today's High Elves didn't like the idea of killing an animal to derive nourishment from it. They didn't want to be associated with their brethren who were killing animals for nutrients, so Lor'themar was forced to banish them for disobeying their prince's orders and being unwilling to do what was necessary to carry their own weight.

Anyway, the High Elves that were banished, which was a small group that were in Quel'thalas during this time, and thus the only ones who suffered from Lor'themar's decision, led by Ranger-Lord Renthar Hawkspear, resumed their old name because they were dumb and saw Kael'thas and Lor'themar as having betrayed them.

The High Elf Farstriders that were stationed at Quel'Danil Lodge simply couldn't get to Quel'thalas in time to help, and either ignored Kael'thas' order for all Elves to return to Quel'thalas, or were like Renthar Hawkspear, and went back to their lodge after Lor'themar banished elves who refused to get with the program. The Hinterlands were relatively safe, and they'd lived there for so long, so they saw no reason to change. Kinda selfish of them to abandon their duty to protect the lives and freedoms of their people, but whatever.

The High Elves living in Allerian Stronghold as part of the Sons of Lothar were in Outland during the schism, and came back, and were like "We've been friends living with the Alliance people in the Sons of Lothar for like 20 years, so we're not gonna fight their friends in Azeroth, but we also have no loyalty or obligation to Stormwind, which was destroyed before we even joined the Alliance, and wasn't rebuilt until after we were through the portal, so we're not going to become blind zealots and fight against our brethren for a king who was like 9 when we left." So they're basically the most neutral, level-headed of the High Elves. Not passionate enough about the current Alliance to blindly serve its king, but not so callous that they'd betray their friends in the Sons of Lothar to blindly serve the Horde's Warchief, whose interests are not always aligned with those of Quel'thalas or its people.

The High Elves living in Dalaran that eventually became the Silver Covenant deserve the least sympathy. They were living comfortable and safe behind a super magic bubble shield, with humans and gnomes unaffected by any addiction withdrawals to protect them while they lay in bed and got through it in a magical city, likely with access to plenty of mana crystals to wean themselves off. These are the whiny entitled brats who think they deserve something because they have blue eyes, or because they know someone who's done something worthwhile, in Vereesa's case. They have no legitimate reason to hate the Blood Elves as much as they do. They didn't suffer at their hands when Lor'themar banished Renthar and his rangers. The only thing they have is that the Blood Elves are friends with the enemies of the High Elves' friends.

So all those groups resumed calling themselves High Elves because they didn't like their kin for whatever reason, some better than others. But they're still the same race, and the only difference is a political one. The Silver Covenant are just as barbaric toward animals as they may claim the Blood Elves to be. They also allow Warlocks in their ranks, so fel isn't a problem with them either. Literally the only thing is their political views.

The Nightborne were similarly mutated by the energies of the Nightwell.

The Naga were mutated by the Old Gods, but one could say they're some form of elf. There's still apparently some slight resemblance, according to books.

But the High Elves and Blood Elves are not different species. They haven't been changed so dramatically. By that logic, a human that's a warlock is a different species from a human that's just some farmer.

I couldn't have said it any better, thank you

[Beloren]

There are Night Elves, Blood Elves, High Elves, Naga, and Nightborne.

....

The Nightborne were similarly mutated by the energies of the Nightwell.

The Naga were mutated by the Old Gods, but one could say they're some form of elf. There's still apparently some slight resemblance, according to books.

But the High Elves and Blood Elves are not different species. They haven't been changed so dramatically. By that logic, a human that's a warlock is a different species from a human that's just some farmer.

You forgot highborne/satyr/Darkfallen

Would you count Satyr as Elves too? I wouldn't count them nor Naga, or the Fal'dorei spiders. From elf, once elves, but no longer ELves. I won't count Satyrs as Elves, but still count the Legion lord demons, the Man'ari Eredar as Eredar just like I count the Draenei as Eredar. But not Satyr, satyr seems very different to Elf.


I noticed culturally also you can split them into the night elf group - sharing night elf culture past and present: i.e. Night elf, highborne, nightborne : nightborne though mutated by their well, continue in their ancient night elf tradition (pre-sundering) same as the Highborne and Moonguard, but with more magic , the night elf group having the highborne culture (pre-sundering) and vigil culture (post sundering)... and the High elf group: High elf, blood elf, darkfallen, fel elf - these are all based around the Thalassian culture, but since the 3rd war, the culture of the Darkfallen would be different now, even if they are free from the Lich King, some work as Forsaken for Sylvannas, the others I assume we shall hear about them more at some point?

Naga does not have a highborne culture - they've developed something totally different at the bottom of the sea, and it looks really scary, I think they worship Azshara as a demi-god ... how did they not try to strangle her after the sundering?

[Koryn123]

You forgot highborne

Nope

"The Highborne are Night Elves, just the aristocratic upper class of Night Elves. No biological difference. Bill Gates is still a human just like me."

There do seem to be more pale-skinned and pale-haired Night Elves among the Highborne than among the general populace, but that's just genetics.

satyr

I did forget Satyrs, but you're right, I wouldn't consider them elves anymore. I don't consider them elves because aside from barely looking like elves anymore, they don't seem to have any unique culture that goes beyond "serve the Legion and get more power and stuff."

Would you count Satyr as Elves too? I wouldn't count them nor Naga, or the Fal'dorei spiders. From elf, once elves, but no longer ELves.

I do count Naga as an offshoot of elves, despite them barely looking like them (with the females retaining much more resemblance than the males do). I do because they've created their own deep identity that extends from pre-Sundering Night Elf culture just like Thalassian, Shalassian, and modern-Darnassian culture does, as well as a language that is just another dialect descended from pre-Sundering Darnassian (or whatever it was called back then). They may serve the Old Gods, but they live, likely fall in love, and have children that they love enough to throw down their weapons, like any parent. I believe there's a quest in Azshara or somewhere else where you hold their children hostage to get the advantage before you slaughter their parents when the naga are willing to do anything to get their kidnapped young back and do as you say and surrender. They're people with families, just like the Horde and Alliance. They just serve their queen, who may or may not serve the Old Gods. I didn't do many 20-60 leveling zones in the Cata revamp that dealt with Twilight's Hammer or naga or Deathwing, so I'm not sure if she's serving an Old God, or just wants Neptulon dead for her own reasons, to rule over the oceans without competition.

I haven't been around WoW news for a month or so until a few days ago, so I didn't know about these new "Fal'dorei." I can't find much info on them, besides that they're found in the catacombs beneath Suramar, and that they seem very similar to someone's fanfiction about Northrend Night Elves turning into spider-like elves.

Is there someplace that has a lot of information about them and the story behind how they came to be?

If not, my current speculation is that they're just freaky experiments gone wrong, or got a spur-of-the-moment transformation like the Naga did in order to achieve some goal, likely a last chance at killing the player raiders that they must now hate.

Because of that, they don't have any unique culture just yet, and are just Shal'dorei that have undergone a weird change that doesn't seem like it would be taken unless those elves involved had a very important reason to change themselves, or make a bargain with an Old God like the naga. They may have a different name, but I don't consider them a different species of elf, or an offshoot of them. Just freaks who were beaten by players, were angry and wanted vengeance or whatever, and accepted some Old God's promise and blessing with their last breath, then are like immediately killed again by the players as part of the last boss fight.

If they have been around for a long time as their own people separate from the Nightborne, then they would be some offshoot from Elves that must have some measure of culture, unless their motivations are basically the same as those of Satyrs, but I wouldn't consider them a type of elf anymore.

I won't count Satyrs as Elves, but still count the Legion lord demons, the Man'ari Eredar as Eredar just like I count the Draenei as Eredar. But not Satyr, satyr seems very different to Elf.

Right, I do consider both the Man'ari and the Draenei as Eredar. They're simply fel-corrupted, and augmented by the Light, so they're no more different from each other biologically than the Blood Elves from the High Elves. Maybe there's some slight differences, like Kil'jaeden who had wings, but they still seem pretty similar, for the most part.

I noticed culturally also you can split them into the night elf group - sharing night elf culture past and present: i.e. Night elf, highborne, nightborne : nightborne though mutated by their well, continue in their ancient night elf tradition (pre-sundering) same as the Highborne and Moonguard, but with more magic , the night elf group having the highborne culture (pre-sundering) and vigil culture (post sundering)... and the High elf group: High elf, blood elf, darkfallen, fel elf - these are all based around the Thalassian culture, but since the 3rd war, the culture of the Darkfallen would be different now, even if they are free from the Lich King, some work as Forsaken for Sylvannas, the others I assume we shall hear about them more at some point?

Naga does not have a highborne culture - they've developed something totally different at the bottom of the sea, and it looks really scary, I think they worship Azshara as a demi-god ... how did they not try to strangle her after the sundering?

The Moonguard aren't a class of people like the Highborne are. They're just a group of magi accessible by the general Night Elf population. If a common Night Elf citizen became a mage and wasn't insanely crazily talented enough to be favored by Azshara and allowed into their ranks like Illidan was (which was a very special case), then their best hope would be joining the Moonguard. Like I come from a family that makes a moderately average income, so we can't afford to send me to some crazy expensive super smart ivy league university like MIT or Princeton. We can send me to Washington State University probably online, with as much scholarships as I can get, to make it as easy on us as possible.

I wouldn't call the Darkfallen a different race of elves, really. I'd just call them undead Blood Elves, and would logically assume that they'd simply join the Forsaken, as there are plenty of undead High Elves there, including Sylvanas and her dark rangers. Lorewise, a very large portion of the Forsaken are undead who were High Elves in life (not a majority over undead humans, mind you, just a lot).

Their "culture" was really just Scourge culture with some slight influence of elven tastes and styles.

In the Naga's case, I do consider their culture to have evolved from the Highborne's, just like the High Elves' and Nightborne's.

[Deleted]

You pretty much have it right. The separate species of elves are Kaldorei (Night Elves), Sin'dorei (Blood Elves), Quel'dorei (High Elves), and now in Legion Shal'dorei (Nightborne).

I wouldn't count things like Sylvanas' dark rangers as seperate because they are simply undead High Elves. Wretched could possibly be considered seperate, but I'd personally still lump them in with Sin'dorei/Blood Elves.

Highborne are Night Elves, just of an upper social class pre-War of the Ancients. They are also sometimes called Quel'dorei in lore like High Elves which can make it a bit confusing.

I disagree about Blood elves and High elves being separate species. They are the exact same species who simply changed name after a tragedy and changing one drug to another.

I'm not sure if Kaldorei and the Nightborne are different species either, or just Night elves both who have lived separately for a long time, but I don't know the new Nightborne race well enough to say for sure.

[Koryn123]

I disagree about Blood elves and High elves being separate species. They are the exact same species who simply changed name after a tragedy and changing one drug to another.

I'm not sure if Kaldorei and the Nightborne are different species either, or just Night elves both who have lived separately for a long time, but I don't know the new Nightborne race well enough to say for sure.

Nightborne are different, having been changed by the Nightwell.

[Beloren]

I disagree about Blood elves and High elves being separate species. They are the exact same species who simply changed name after a tragedy and changing one drug to another.

I'm not sure if Kaldorei and the Nightborne are different species either, or just Night elves both who have lived separately for a long time, but I don't know the new Nightborne race well enough to say for sure.

I agree with you for both, but everyone seems to have their own take based on how they view the line between species .. it's not like blizzard has defined it anyway. Trolls were changed permanently by the waters of the well of eternity. It is those same waters that are in both the sunwell and the nightwell, so it's not like either are changed into a different species. So I would say same race as how we classify it irl, but in game terms, a race is really a faction, and is not necessarily always genetically distinct. forsaken and humans are not genetically distinct yet they're different race.

And nightborne look very much like night elves to me, just slightly different, so yeah, they're changed from the well, but not by much and still carry on in a very night elven culture and tradition, the pre-sundering one which is the highborne culture. night elf/nightborne is like black west African to East African - you get a bit darker and more refined. I have to view them as high class night elves or fancy night elves - think about it what's the fastest way to say night elf highborne? Nightborne !! it's even in the word. It's like blizzard just gave night elf highborne a unique look and package in the nightborne. Oh and all 4 night elf groups have lived separately. The Vigil group were completely unaware of the Eldre'thalas Shen'drelar group who were completely unaware of the Suramar surviving group who were completely unaware of the Moonguard group. There are very few Shen'drelar and Moonguard so the vast majority of night elf highborne are actually Nightborne and I suspect that from now on they will dominate the night elf highborne scene in the lore.

[Mace]

The Moonguard aren't a class of people like the Highborne are. They're just a group of magi accessible by the general Night Elf population. If a common Night Elf citizen became a mage and wasn't insanely crazily talented enough to be favored by Azshara and allowed into their ranks like Illidan was (which was a very special case), then their best hope would be joining the Moonguard. Like I come from a family that makes a moderately average income, so we can't afford to send me to some crazy expensive super smart ivy league university like MIT or Princeton. We can send me to Washington State University probably online, with as much scholarships as I can get, to make it as easy on us as possible.
.

hang on, the Moonguard died on Hyjal, according to WotA, they survivors who fought in the war got folded into the druids when they gave up arcane magic, those that wouldn't would have joined the Zin'Azshari highborne led by Darth'remar right? It's only recently we discovered the Moonguard continued, as their own separate group, defending the isles and also watching for demons in their own way, they carried on their charge too, as far as I have seen, it was independent of any other group. They seem to be the only ones who discerned the magical barrier protecting what we now know is Suramar, but I'm not sure they even knew it was, they do remark they had no idea what was going on within the bubble till it came down - and the nightborne who aligned with the legion attacked them, nearly wiping them out, the nightborne resistance take the survivors under their wing. The moonguard seriously kick nightborne ass like big time. It shows you that though they didn't have access to the huge power source of the well, nor did they go about rebuilding or anything, they certainly didn't dull in skill. They were simply overwhelmed by the numbers of the nightborne army from the city (who are doing Elisande and thus the Legion's bidding) but took a sizeable chunk out of them.

In WotA - it isn't clear as you are saying. From what I gather, (remember now RPG book is NO LONGER canon - so discard everything it says, and it does contradict some of the wota account) the Moonguard was an elite specialized fighting unit group - like Battle mages, they specialize in magical combat and were the military wing of the Night elves - highborne could join it if they so wished. Highborne is a caste not a discipline/calling like priest/druid/mage etc - Highborne could choose to be what type of mage they want, battle mage would join the moonguard. Azshara found the most talented Night Elves and "knighted" them to Highborne (again - disregard the rpg material, it's not canon, go off the enyclopedia, WC3 manual and WotA) - You could be raised to highborne but your brother not if Azshara found you talented. Whiles he was still your blood, you'd be hanging out with the magical elite crowd, your children would all be highborne too, but not all would necessary have magical ability.

It's just the highest concentration of magical talent was found amongst the highborne caste Azshara created, but it was not the only one, and you can imagine or find it conceivable that she didn't spot every talent - she didn't spot Malfurion - although he would most likely have rejected it as he did speak out against the complacent lifestyle of his people, and we find out he was not the only one not happy about the abuse of magic the Queen and those highborne with her at Zin'Azshari were doing. We find out from other sources, Menaar and other places which from Legion I am fairly certain would be Nar'thalas and Suramar also raised concerns eventually rejecting the Queen. Nar'thalas gets punished by Azshara as a display of power to discourage any from challenging her authority - she was working in cohorts with the demons at that time, Suramar also rejects her and fights against her - in fact most of the night elves that win the war and become the vigil group are from Suramar.

So the nightborne are literally the family and friends they thought their folly and hubris with magic destroyed. Turns out, actually the magic saved them. .and it was Azshara's hubris but more than that Sargeras' cunning that is at fault as he's done that to countless worlds, Suramar and this expansion is really significant to the night elves, much of their current view on magic, their 10k year long self penance, and shame and grief centred around losing their home.. Suramar (for most of them - the High elf group were Zin'Azshari night elves), furthermore magic was viewed in a very bad light as it was the instrument of the destruction - not magic's fault but you can see it tainted their view - now to find out that magic saved their city, and the survivors used it responsibly for 10k years is also quite something too.

They really need to write a book that explores this well

[Beloren]

I did forget Satyrs, but you're right, I wouldn't consider them elves anymore. I don't consider them elves because aside from barely looking like elves anymore, they don't seem to have any unique culture that goes beyond "serve the Legion and get more power and stuff."

I do count Naga as an offshoot of elves, despite them barely looking like them (with the females retaining much more resemblance than the males do). I do because they've created their own deep identity that extends from pre-Sundering Night Elf culture just like Thalassian, Shalassian, and modern-Darnassian culture does, as well as a language that is just another dialect descended from pre-Sundering Darnassian (or whatever it was called back then). They may serve the Old Gods, but they live, likely fall in love, and have children that they love enough to throw down their weapons, like any parent. I believe there's a quest in Azshara or somewhere else where you hold their children hostage to get the advantage before you slaughter their parents when the naga are willing to do anything to get their kidnapped young back and do as you say and surrender. They're people with families, just like the Horde and Alliance. They just serve their queen, who may or may not serve the Old Gods. I didn't do many 20-60 leveling zones in the Cata revamp that dealt with Twilight's Hammer or naga or Deathwing, so I'm not sure if she's serving an Old God, or just wants Neptulon dead for her own reasons, to rule over the oceans without competition.
In the Naga's case, I do consider their culture to have evolved from the Highborne's, just like the High Elves' and Nightborne's.

Interesting response, thanks for it, for the same reason you won't call Satyr elves, I won't call naga elves either. There is nothing night elven about them at all anymore, focus, worship, behaviour - the only thing is that they were once elves and they have a penchant for magic too. Sure they're an offshoot of Elves, as are Satyr, but they're no longer elves.

I wouldn't call the Darkfallen a different race of elves, really. I'd just call them undead Blood Elves, and would logically assume that they'd simply join the Forsaken, as there are plenty of undead High Elves there, including Sylvanas and her dark rangers. Lorewise, a very large portion of the Forsaken are undead who were High Elves in life (not a majority over undead humans, mind you, just a lot).

Their "culture" was really just Scourge culture with some slight influence of elven tastes and styles.

In the Naga's case, I do consider their culture to have evolved from the Highborne's, just like the High Elves' and Nightborne's.

you see - you won't call the darkfallen a different race, and yet everyone will call the forsaken a different race though they are human, it's exactly the same thing. wow doesn't use the term race like we do in real life for the in-game "races". So yeah, Darkfallen is a race of elves, but a race of thalassian elves. Different race in wow's meaning of race, but not in rl meaning of race. Hence most call them a sub-race.

and nightborne culture is highborne culture, this is the full example of highborne culture. Didn't hte developers say they were showing us pre-sundering night elf arcane culture. It's how they use to be like before Azshara's lot got all decadent - she wasn't always so btw. They said they were showing us what that culture was like if they didn't stop using magic but continued on to today. See the vigil group stopped using magic, the Shen'drelar fell to ruin eventulaly, the Moonguard, were more a discipline like the Wardens, isolated and reclusive, the nightborne is the only magical success story of the night elves. I don't count the high elves here even though they were a success, because they chose to stop being night elves after the exile. So even though they are still a race of elves, they removed the night from themselves by becoming diurnal and swapping moon/stars for sun.

night elf highborne or nightborne - don't you get it? it's in the name, this is the fullness of night elf highborne culture that we were never shown with Eldre'thalas, this is what we're shown with the nightborne, they're given a new look, even a new race, but it's obviously tied to night elf. Night elf ways, night elf city, night elf behaviour - very arcane night elf. Arcane night elf now has a unique look. I can see why some are calling them night elf 2.0, but I'd just settle for fancy night elves. I don't particularly like them, but i guess it's cool for big night elf fans. I'm sure some fans got a nerd orgasm when they found out about this. Some people are really into this. Personally, I find myself more a blood elf person, I don't begrudge the night elven roots, but they're kinda the other side now, should be interesting having to fight the nightborne and take over their city stick it to the night elves. Don't quote me as saying that would happen though.

It's really just packaging, Mace was right! they present it in one way and it feels like it's something entirely different. For all we know the difference between night elf and blood elf is really just like the difference between black people and white people just that in this case we have magic as the cause of the change... that's it. but it's still the same race genetically - for all we know. Afterall, the sunwell, nightwell are all made from the same waters of the well of eternity. Nightborne just look like aristocratic East Africans compared to the lighter toned west African (skin colour wise) and ofc Blood elf are European, - their well's didn't remake them into new species, they gave them minor superficial alterations. The damn nightborne are still culturally more night elf than the Kalimdor group. And the blood elves have a different culture of their own now.

it's all just packaging.

[Koryn123]

snip

Eh, that would mean that all elves are also still the same as trolls, but just look a little different. Because the Dark Trolls were also altered by a well of arcane magic.

I see what you mean with the human/forsaken thing. I amend my view to be that Darkfallen fall under the "undead" race. I consider all undead basically one race. They certainly seem to think so. The Death Knights are like "we are all brothers in death" and whatnot. Thassarian and Koltira were mortal enemies in life, now best buddies in undeath.

The way we use race irl is skin colors and minor physical differences in our appearances. The way they use it in WoW is the way we would use the word "species" so I don't consider the Nightborne the same species as Night Elves.

They're not the natural progression from pre-Sundering Night Elves. If they'd stayed with the normal nice Well of Eternity, they would be the natural progression. Nor are the Shen'drelar. Their culture stagnated and screeched to a grinding halt when they had to focus all their efforts on keeping Immol'thar imprisoned as they drained him of his fel magic to survive for 10,000 years. That would make them fel-corrupted, so not only is Tyrande condoning arcane, but so is sucking fel, by accepting the Shen'drelar back.

The Night Elves were the result of the Dark Trolls' exposure over a long period of time to the full power of the undamaged original Well of Eternity.

The High/Blood Elves were the immediate result of Dath'Remar's Highborne's link to their new Sunwell made from a lake of normal water, into which Dath'Remar poured a single small vial of water from the Well of Eternity.

The Nightborne were the result of prolonged exposure to dark energies emanating from the Nightwell, a corrupted source of arcane magic that sustained them in place of food or drink.

The Naga were the immediate result of an Old God's meddling to make Azshara and her Highborne into its pawns.

Today's Darnassian society did a pretty big step in the opposite direction when they rejected the arcane.


The Nightborne are the most similar to pre-Sundering Highborne society, and would be its natural progression if not for the Nightwell taking such a controlling influence on their lives. The Nightborne's leaders weren't normal joe schmoe Night Elves like the Kal'dorei Resistance. Their leaders were Highborne, and molded their entire society to emulate the Highborne's preferred lifestyle, so the Nightborne are the closest thing possible to the natural progression of the rich, snooty, noble elite among the Night Elves.

The High/Blood Elves ditched the moon worship and emphasis on the night, switching instead to sun (and eventually Light) worship and daytime stuff.

The Naga ditched the moon worship in favor of worshipping their queen as a demigod, as well as other aquatic figures, like Neptulon and the ocean as a whole, similar to their former reverence for the night, and the High Elves' for the day.

The Nightborne are the only ones who kept arcane and night time stuff. I don't know if they kept Elune worship, as I haven't seen much Suramar beta questing. They used to worship Azshara, for the most part, so I can't imagine they'd really care much about Elune once they were isolated in their magic bubble shield.

[Beloren]

Eh, that would mean that all elves are also still the same as trolls, but just look a little different. Because the Dark Trolls were also altered by a well of arcane magic.

Load, a bit surprise statement from you, why would you reach that conclusion from what I wrote? you're usually pick up things quickly, maybe I didn't explain well. Let me try and organize my thoughts apologies if it's still confusing after this.

The Well transformed the dark trolls completely into a new being, the Elf (night)
Once reaching that final state the night elf isn't modified further by the well, - this is evidenced by their continued proximity to it and mastery of it affecting no further change. The Well stopped transforming them at their current state.
There is no further evolution from the well of eternity - therefore the sunwell and the nightwell which are both made from its waters won't change the elves into a new species at all.

Because the Sunwell is altered somewhat, you could say the high elf changes are reflecting the alterations made in making the sunwell. It's more a diversification rather than a new change, same with the nightwell but that one alters them even less, seeing they look nearly the same. (height/manner/colour etc). But it's not a new species it's still an Elf (high/blood) or night elf (nightborne) .

All life on Azeroth comes from the Well, and similar pockets we now know is the blood of Azertoh persay. The trolls came from it, and dark trolls were later modified by it further. (Yaungol, Murlocs and Pandaren predecssors were too).

My point is the Well's aren't changing any elf beyond Elf, they are really just altering them slightly according to the alteration in each well. The sunwell seems to be a bigger alteration than the nightwell hence why high elves have light skinned instead of dark like both night elf groups. And night is a cultural/habitually distinction moreso than it is a genetical one (being nocturnal)

The way I understand it, thanks to some of you on here, is that it's done all the changes it could have done, night elves aren't migrating to a new species, in that sense high elves are not a new species, they're just a different group of Elf, a variation that's superficial but still a different species to Troll, but not to night elf.. they are not night elf because there is no longer "night" to them, not because they're a different species. Werne't the high elves the ones that attached the prefix night elf to the Elves to distinguish themselves from their nocturnal kin? They are a different group - because they have a non-night elven culture - their culture is different from anything the Elves use to do, it's a diurnal, sun based cultured - this is not the case for the nightborne/highborne and normal night elves.

All night elves whether highborne, nightborne or normal night elf share the night thing in common - nocturnal, moon/star focus and are all based on the night elven culture - the way I understand it - the vigil night elves are the night elven culture without the arcane usage, and the nightborne & highborne are the night elven culture with only the arcane in it - leaving behind the priesthood and druidic side.. which a lot of the highborne were doing pre-sundering. However all have the night (hence night elf) focus on moon/stars and the night and all are tied to that night elven civilization, only the high elves have broken away from that. but the night elves, highborne and nightborne, moonguard, wardens, druids, etc all do. So this why to me it looks like that:

In wow the difference between white and black is caused by the alterations to the well of eternity derivaitive wells, whereas in RL, we don't know what caused the difference between white and black people - but itseems to me the difference between night elves and high elves is like betwee n European and African. Humans have white, yellow, brown and black. Elves have white, purple, blue and black. The purple/blue/black are all in the one category of the night. The white ones are in another category - they also have distinctions like undead ones, normal ones high/blood even fel - i't just that there's don't have as many caolour variations

[steelballfc]

@EnigmAddict Based on your thoughts, Sylvanas and her "elf" are new spices of Elf's because the Curse of Undead Transform them from normal Elf into "banshee".

[Beloren]

@EnigmAddict Based on your thoughts, Sylvanas and her "elf" are new spices of Elf's because the Curse of Undead Transform them from normal Elf into "banshee".

that's the opposite of what I'm saying. Undead elves and normal elves are the same species, but obviously different groups - just like human and forsaken - which is why they are two different races on the character creation but they actually aren't, they're two different faction sof human, one living the other dead. Like worgen and human, also human, one is cursed the other is not.

In wow, I've noticed that using race and species is not clearly defined nor consistent. Race can mean species or genetics, it can mean faction or group. In-game it more often is faction even if the two groups are the same race, there has to be some clear distinguishing thing about them that usually is just dressing. Sometimes they are both, genetically different race like orcs and draenei - sometimes they are genetically different but the same racial group even though they're different like Broken and draenei - how we perceive them is how they've been packaged, they may be different but if they're quite intertwined with an existing group they are considered part of it, if they are not then they aren't, it's just dressing.

Either that or I don't know how to read and understand any longer

[Lochton]

what I understand that :
-there was a Dark trolls who Evolved into Elf's
-Those "Elf's" had 2 society levels, the Night elf's and Highborn
- after the War of the Ancient the Queen Azshara was defeated and the Highborn was separated into -Naga
- High Elf's ----> Blood elf's
- Nightborn
- some remaining Highborn
= so the way I see it there only 2 kind of Elf's
1- the Moon elf's ( Night Elf's - Highborn - Nightborn )
2- the sun Elf's ( High - Blood )
but some among you keep speaking about every Type as separate Kind of it's own

On side Note : there is 2 Type of Corrupted elf's, one you meet as Blood elf's in Starting Zone, and Other who were Nightborn, also there is Sylvanas Rangers who were elf's.

Hope you can clear that up for me.

Looks about right to me, I think.

You pretty much have it right. The separate species of elves are Kaldorei (Night Elves), Sin'dorei (Blood Elves), Quel'dorei (High Elves), and now in Legion Shal'dorei (Nightborne).

I wouldn't count things like Sylvanas' dark rangers as seperate because they are simply undead High Elves. Wretched could possibly be considered seperate, but I'd personally still lump them in with Sin'dorei/Blood Elves.

Highborne are Night Elves, just of an upper social class pre-War of the Ancients. They are also sometimes called Quel'dorei in lore like High Elves which can make it a bit confusing.

Wretched would at this time (currently) be of the Blood Elves due to the addiction in them.