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  1. #1601

  2. #1602
    I was recently asked in email about how to handle multi-enemy simcrafting, and I thought I would share my response because I doubt he's the only one who is really interested. He asked about persistent multi-enemy sims, and he also asked about how to make a transient enemy fight like Spellblade where the adds are coming up at specific times. Here is my response, copied from email.

    -----------------------

    Simcraft, by itself, requires overloading the enemy keyword to generate persistent targets.The following would generate 3 enemies that last throughout the fight.

    ------------------------------------
    armory=us,area+52,Effinhunter

    enemy=enemy1
    enemy=enemy2
    enemy=enemy3
    ------------------------------------

    As for more realistic fights like Spellblade Aluriel? The way to do this in Simcraft is to use the raid_events keyword, like so:

    ------------------------------------
    raid_events+=/adds,count=3,first=0,duration=45,cooldown=60
    ------------------------------------

    This spawns 3 adds at 0 seconds for 45s, and then summons them again every 60s for 45s. This basically results in there being 3 adds for 3/4 the sim. If you need them to appear only once, you just need to make the cooldown longer than the fight duration and then they can't spawn twice. For Aluriel, about the closest thing you could do is the following:

    ------------------------------------
    # Icy Enchantments on our last kill started at 65s and then came up again 207s later
    raid_events+=/adds,count=4,first=65,duration=20,cooldown=207

    # Fiery Enchantments on our last kill started at 133s, we didn't see them again, but I'm assuming 207s later
    raid_events+=/adds,count=6,first=133,duration=25,cooldown=207

    # Arcane Enchantments on our last kill started at 208s, we didn't see them again, but I'm assuming 207s later
    raid_events+=/adds,count=8,first=208,duration=10,cooldown=207
    ------------------------------------

    Now, a thing to keep in mind is that the default APL will not act the way you probably want it to. The default APL is not going to wait 65s to use a CD, for instance, if that is how you are wanting to do it. The default APL will blow all CDs at the beginning. If you need it to do something special, you'll have to code that into the APL by making conditionals for certain statements (e.g., holding a bestial wrath for the add spawns or pooling DFs for them or something like that).

    However, the above raid events will get you closer to how the adds are being handled, at the very least.

  3. #1603
    7.2.5 Updates for BM

    These are meant to reflect current gear options, not the new gear that will drop in a week. 900 base ilvl with 970 legendary options. Current tier sets from NH.

    BM legendaries, 56 traits, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


    BM legendary combos, 56 traits, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)



    Working on tier breakdowns next.

    - - - Updated - - -

    BM tier progression, 56 traits, 900/930 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


    BM tier progression, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


    No legendaries in breakdown. That comes next.

    P.S. Still using BTI trinket in these. Probably shouldn't, but differences shouldn't be that big of a deal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The following still have BTI. Need to replace it with something reasonable. Will do tomorrow or the next day (suggestions welcome).

    BM tier with legendary combos, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


    BM tier with legendary combos, 3 targets, 360s, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


    BM tier with legendary combos, 6 targets, 360s, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


    Just showing the scaling up of combos. Lots of really close legendary combos in all 3 situations.
    Last edited by Effinhunter; 2017-06-13 at 03:46 AM.

  4. #1604
    Pretty much just confirms what we expected, ring+belt will be the most versatile combo (improved burst+tier set interaction with belt, and ring generally just making DF more consistent for beast cleave etc), with the potential for bracers to outshine ring on pure singletarget (losing 120% pet haste is a bigger deal when beast cleaving big packs, than when single targetting).

  5. #1605
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    Pretty much just confirms what we expected, ring+belt will be the most versatile combo (improved burst+tier set interaction with belt, and ring generally just making DF more consistent for beast cleave etc), with the potential for bracers to outshine ring on pure singletarget (losing 120% pet haste is a bigger deal when beast cleaving big packs, than when single targetting).
    Do you expect OwtP to be better than Blink Strikes with the ring, especially for for beastcleaving? I think its probably the opposite. Beastcleave is so strong for AoE, and i am not sure OwtP is that much ahead even for singletarget phases of a bossfight. And unlike with the current t19 4p, we don't have BW every 25 seconds and might need to actually delay it for specific boss phases and OwtP might not really help in those situations. Squeezing in an extra BW is still risky and a gamble that probably isn't worth it in many cases.

    Harjatan seems to be a good example for this. During the Beta tests i often needed to delay BW for like 15-20 seconds because of the add spawns and because i wanted to burst the important targets down as quickly as possible when they spawn, and not 10 secs later when they are (almost) dead anyway. I have no clue how important boss dmg will be when actually trying to kill the boss, but it did not seem very important during testing.

    Guldan is another good example. With t19 i was often able to squeeze in extra BWs in phase 2 and still have it ready for every big eye. That probably won't be the case when we loose t19 4pc and i am pretty sure i would have delayed BW every time for an big eye without t19. I am not saying guldan will still be relevant, i just think its a good example for this.

    I also think the bracers have almost as much synergy with BW as the belt does. The belt allows us to pretty much spam during every BW even when aspect is not up. The Bracers (especially together with CoF) give us more aspects and therefore more very strong BW windows. Aspect of the wild with the new GCD change will also be a stronger CD for AoE with a priority Target than it is now, because you can weave in more cobrashots and Kill Commands while keeping up beastcleave. Also thunderslash is still a thing in aoe, even if not as impactful as it once was

    I expect legendary choice coming down between the 2 rings (apex and the new one), the bracers and the belt (and prydaz for fights where it might be needed?). Bracers are probably very dependant on the fights (when will adds spawn, is it feasible to combine it with CoF to line it up better with possible add spawns, do i need more turtles to soak mechanics and so on). I also expect the new ring to excel in aoe with blink strikes, but i might undervalue its use with owtp. Other than AoE favoring the ring imo and bracers being very good for certain situations, choice will probably come down to what non-legendary items you might have for those slots, especially when looking at Effins paired legendary sims with tier.

  6. #1606
    The main issue I have with blink strikes is that it's definitively worse for a single target environment, and for a burst environment (more DB = more focus = more kill commands). We'll have to wait and see how timings line up for specific fights, but generally, I don't believe a cooldown as short as bestial wrath is worth delaying unless you *very strictly* need it to kill off an add. Even then, if that's the case, you'd almost certainly be better off going MM in that scenario; MM packs a bigger punch unless you've got TT+Aspect+BW+2x DF ready, and MM's burst is only going to be getting stronger (massively so, in fact) with the tier under trueshot.

    To put it into perspective, BW has a "base" 90 second CD. Using Dire Beast reduces it by 15 seconds. That means for every 10 seconds passed, BW effectively gets reduced by 25 seconds CD, due to normal time passing+15 sec per dire beast.

    That means that realistically, even with zero procs, BW should only have a cooldown of ~45 seconds (assuming you wait the last 15 secs, rather than 10 sec then DB with 5 seconds left). That's a worst case scenario. If we add in Wild call procs, without the ring:

    20% chance on Autoshot crit. Using my own gear, I have 25% crit in my BM set. That means 4% chance on auto shot to trigger a proc. My attack speed is 2.57, which means I get a proc every ~64 seconds without the ring. So every other BW will be a cooldown of ~30 seconds (30 seconds passing, 60 seconds from 4x dire beast).

    If you add the ring, it becomes a 50% chance on autoshot crit, which again, happens 1/4 of the time. Now I get a proc reset every ~21 seconds, or every BW, making it a semi-reliable 30 second cooldown (again, 30 seconds passing, 4x dire beasts due to 1x reset every ~21 seconds). Considering the fairly decent buffer (9 seconds), this should, from a napkin math-standpoint, be reliable enough to happen more often than not.



    While I get the need to save CDs for important parts of a fight and always do so myself, it's not a very effective approach to hold a 30 second CD for ~15-20 seconds, especially not one that's as impactful as BW (assuming belt is worn, focus cost reduc+huge damage buff).

    As for bracers having good synergy with BW, you're absolutely right - when it's available, the aspect is certainly going to be stronger than the focus reduction from the belt. The difference just is, belt is up *every* BW, making it a reliable outcome every time, rather than the aspect, which will be up every ~3 BW's with bracers, and every ~4 without, assuming no convergence (which I expect to be outclassed by heroic tomb trinkets, unless you've got a VERY juicy one).


    As for specific fights and PTR tests, I've done none of them, so I wouldn't know offhand where I'd expect to use the various stuff. Belt+Ring just seems like it'd be the most versatile setup; It allows for the most reliable burst (more DF, more focus, every BW is powerful due to belt rather than only every 3 due to bracers), it has the best AOE potential (due to DF uptime+focus to spend on multishots; 122% attack speed > 100% more damage, because 122 is bigger than 100), and it's not far behind pure single target (in fairness, none of the combos are).
    Last edited by Dracodraco; 2017-06-13 at 12:41 PM.

  7. #1607
    No real change on talent recommendations. OWTP > BS > BF for new Huntmaster ring. You can see that effect in the legendary sims above. Will get to SV and MM as I get some time. Sorry for the wait.

    BM top 30 talent combinations, single target, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, 2pc T19 / 4pc T20 (Simcraft Source)

  8. #1608
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    No real change on talent recommendations. OWTP > BS > BF for new Huntmaster ring. You can see that effect in the legendary sims above. Will get to SV and MM as I get some time. Sorry for the wait.

    BM top 30 talent combinations, single target, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, 2pc T19 / 4pc T20 (Simcraft Source)
    Your work is insane bro.

    Gratz for taking time to do this!

    Are you gonna create a new post for 7.2.5? this is getting like more than 80+ pages.

  9. #1609
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post

    While I get the need to save CDs for important parts of a fight and always do so myself, it's not a very effective approach to hold a 30 second CD for ~15-20 seconds, especially not one that's as impactful as BW (assuming belt is worn, focus cost reduc+huge damage buff).

    As for bracers having good synergy with BW, you're absolutely right - when it's available, the aspect is certainly going to be stronger than the focus reduction from the belt. The difference just is, belt is up *every* BW, making it a reliable outcome every time, rather than the aspect, which will be up every ~3 BW's with bracers, and every ~4 without, assuming no convergence (which I expect to be outclassed by heroic tomb trinkets, unless you've got a VERY juicy one).


    As for specific fights and PTR tests, I've done none of them, so I wouldn't know offhand where I'd expect to use the various stuff. Belt+Ring just seems like it'd be the most versatile setup; It allows for the most reliable burst (more DF, more focus, every BW is powerful due to belt rather than only every 3 due to bracers), it has the best AOE potential (due to DF uptime+focus to spend on multishots; 122% attack speed > 100% more damage, because 122 is bigger than 100), and it's not far behind pure single target (in fairness, none of the combos are).
    I generally agree with the belt and ring probably being the most versatile and best setup all around. I just believe that the bracers will be very close, as effins sims also suggest, and might come ahead if the fight favors it (be that burst dmg needed on whatever add(s)/phases or even just turtle on a shorter CD to be able to soak abilitys more frequently). Or if one lacks decent trinket options besides a high CoF due to the synergy with it.

    I also understand that delaying such a short cooldown is very very inefficient, but if the fight calls for it you kinda have to. It makes a huge difference if you have BW up or not for any addwave on Aluriel, although one can make the case that this should not be the primary task of a BM hunter or that you should just specc MM (talking purely progress here btw). Guldan is an even better example, at least in the case of my guild. We had to stop DPS in phase 1 as well as phase 2 during progress (Before 7.2) so delaying BW for eyes (be it small or big) to have it up for sure was - at least in my opinion - always the right call, even if you could get lucky with proccs and get it ready again in time. I know that a similar scenario might not occur in tomb, but its still a good reference in my opinion.

    And yes MM would probably be the better choice in some of these situations but i personally am a bit behind on MM theorycrafting and haven't really played it in the last few months, so i don't really have any input for that. I should probably start catching up with that again

    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    No real change on talent recommendations. OWTP > BS > BF for new Huntmaster ring. You can see that effect in the legendary sims above. Will get to SV and MM as I get some time. Sorry for the wait.
    I might be missing it, but do we have results for OwtP vs BS in AoE Scenarios? I only see OwtP in the multitarget sims for legendary combos.

    And a huge thanks for always putting so much work into this!

  10. #1610
    Quote Originally Posted by nidosarg View Post
    Are you gonna create a new post for 7.2.5? this is getting like more than 80+ pages.
    I typically just ask the mods to update the title to this thread with 7.2.5 when I update the first post with the updated info. I know a lot of people bookmark this thread because of the churn here, and I wouldn't want them to accidentally go to an old thread expecting new updates.

    I'll make a new thread on next expansion, more than likely.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by caph View Post
    I might be missing it, but do we have results for OwtP vs BS in AoE Scenarios? I only see OwtP in the multitarget sims for legendary combos.

    And a huge thanks for always putting so much work into this!
    No, I had to travel for past 2 weeks, and this is just what I am working on right now. My next plan was to do similar breakdowns for SV and MM and then move on to bigger sims. A full talent combination breakdown takes several hours to run, so I'd rather hold off on doing that until I can babysit the run for a while to make sure I don't waste 6+ hours on it and get bad results. Most other sims can be done much more quickly, so full talent breakdowns and rerunning all trinkets, for instance, are held off until last if at all possible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Check the source files on these and see if you guys see any problems. Single target. Base 900/930 profiles with tier and 970 legendaries (this week scenario)

    MM legendaries, 56 traits, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)


    MM legendary combos, 56 traits, 970 legs, (Simcraft Source)

  11. #1611
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    No, I had to travel for past 2 weeks, and this is just what I am working on right now. My next plan was to do similar breakdowns for SV and MM and then move on to bigger sims. A full talent combination breakdown takes several hours to run, so I'd rather hold off on doing that until I can babysit the run for a while to make sure I don't waste 6+ hours on it and get bad results. Most other sims can be done much more quickly, so full talent breakdowns and rerunning all trinkets, for instance, are held off until last if at all possible.
    No worries! I was not thinking of a complete talent combination breakdown but adding Blinkstrikes profiles to the legendary combos with the new ring additionally to OwtP. You currently always have OwtP enabled when using the new ring in the "BM tier with legendary combos" sims. There are no multitarget sims in your legendary combos without tier, although you did add a OwtP profile as well as a BS profile for the single target sims there.

  12. #1612
    MM tier progression, 56 traits, 900/930 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


    MM tier progression, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


    - - - Updated - - -

    MM tier with legendary combos, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


    MM tier with legendary combos, 3 targets, 360s, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


    MM tier with legendary combos, 6 targets, 360s, 56 traits, 915/945 ilvl, (Simcraft Source)


    - - - Updated - - -

    First post should be updated to here.

  13. #1613
    Does using the wrists for BM still rely on also using a CoF trinket? Or are the numbers above not including the CoF when they rank belt/wrists as #1 combo for ST?

  14. #1614
    HolyCrap!! Diference between MM and BM sims is HUGH!

  15. #1615
    Quote Originally Posted by endh19 View Post
    HolyCrap!! Diference between MM and BM sims is HUGH!
    BM sims were taken at 900 ilvl, 970 legendaries, MM sims were taken at 915 ilvl, 970 legendaries. Not quite an apples to apples comparison tbh.

  16. #1616
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by jaimelannister View Post
    Does using the wrists for BM still rely on also using a CoF trinket? Or are the numbers above not including the CoF when they rank belt/wrists as #1 combo for ST?
    dont think so

  17. #1617
    Quote Originally Posted by Uniel View Post
    BM sims were taken at 900 ilvl, 970 legendaries, MM sims were taken at 915 ilvl, 970 legendaries. Not quite an apples to apples comparison tbh.
    Check Azor sims...

  18. #1618
    Quote Originally Posted by jaimelannister View Post
    Does using the wrists for BM still rely on also using a CoF trinket? Or are the numbers above not including the CoF when they rank belt/wrists as #1 combo for ST?
    The BM profiles are using CoF as a baseline. I haven't ran each of these with a different trinket. However, the source is provided. Feel free to change the CoF to something else that you feel is reasonable and post the results you found in sims.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Uniel View Post
    BM sims were taken at 900 ilvl, 970 legendaries, MM sims were taken at 915 ilvl, 970 legendaries. Not quite an apples to apples comparison tbh.
    The legendary baselines for T19 all used 900 ilvl with 970 legendaries. The source is in the recent posts, and the first post as an aggregate.

    MM
    http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/...ry_combos.simc
    http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/...gendaries.simc

    BM
    http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/...ry_combos.simc
    http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/...gendaries.simc

    I used 915 gear sets as a baseline for anything involving T20 or meant to use base heroic ilvls for ToS

    MM
    http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/mm/mm_tier_915.simc
    http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/...gendaries.simc

    BM

    http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/bm/bm_tier_915.simc
    http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/...gendaries.simc

    If you see an error here, let me know. But there is no intention of using different ilvls for the same tests between specs.

    That being said, these are first drafts and are really an attempt to quantify upgrade options within the same spec--not a basis for spec comparisons.

    - - - Updated - - -

    P.S. For some strange reason, Stomp with OWTP is simming better for current gear than DF with BF. Check your gear and try it out. Also makes certain legendary combos, like mantle/belt generally stronger than other combos that sim higher with DF/BF (does with my gear)

    - - - Updated - - -

    MM will need to be completely reran for 4 pc changes. Keep that in mind because that is going to be a significant, almost 50% nerf on the 4pc bonus.

  19. #1619
    Deleted
    Seriously, what's going on with all the MM t20 4p nerfs...

    They might as well leave it blank - I won't even be able to feel a difference between a buffed/unbuffed shot anymore.

    It's pathetic.

  20. #1620
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    I won't even be able to feel a difference between a buffed/unbuffed shot anymore.
    Indeed, its 4 focus saved on every other aimed shot, so for every 26 aimed shots cast, you have will have saved a grand total of 52 focus for a new aimed shot .

    Thats really going to make a difference, lmao.

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