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  1. #41
    May be a dump Q but why u always take 3min for a fight length? Isnt 5min more accurate? I guess 3min fight req less resources to count it.
    Also do you test legendary items or not yet?

  2. #42
    These are first stabs at the artifact. I was using 3m fights because this gear is 825, so I'm simulating more of heroic/mythic dungeons, which should not have many 5m boss fights. I just realized I had these set to level 100 instead of 110 so these were vastly overestimating secondary stat impact. Consider all of this as a work in progress. I just reran artifacts with 110 level characters. I'll be posting those in just a moment, as well as the SV talent sims.

    - - - Updated - - -

    BM Artifact Rerun with level 110 char:


    MM Artifact Rerun with level 110 char:


    SV Artifact Rerun with level 110 char:


    SV Talents for level 100 char:


    I'll update links in first post for Simcraft sources

    - - - Updated - - -

    Edit: First post updated with new sim results. Currently rerunning MM talent sims to fix the Volley misconfiguration.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nabseeker View Post
    If SrS dmg is rly that close to DFG, prob i will dodge DFG too. Less stuff to cast on cd - better focus on mongoose rotation.
    It's not, as can be seen in the updated talent section. This was a misconfiguration in my Simcraft file which accidentally had some of the SrS profiles configured with DFG. After fixing this issue, DFG is way ahead of SrS in most configurations by ~2.4k dps for level 100 characters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    MM talents updated with the fix to Volley configuration.


    Simcraft source, 2m fight (i.e., IR), 10k iterations, 100 char level

    First post updated to here.

  3. #43
    It's interesting that LW_leg_wg3_rk_16* is that powerful, given the way the AP system is intended to work.

    * which I feel safe to assume is "Lone Wolf, Legacy of the Windrunners, Windrunner's Guidance 3/3, Rapid Killing".
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    Top parse =/= correct play.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    I just realized I had these set to level 100 instead of 110 so these were vastly overestimating secondary stat impact.
    If I'm reading this correctly, this means MM is scaling way better than BM / SV. Can you somehow forecast at which point MM is taking the lead?

    While I do trust sims, seems LW is little bit off - If I recall well, devs itself told LW will be go-to talent and other two weaker choices if you wish to play with a pet.
    It would be also interesting to see how are specializations looks like when we pit them with legendary items.

  5. #45
    High secondary stat weights can just as easily mean that the spec scales badly with Agility (which MM does), as it can mean that it scales well with secondaries.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsoni View Post
    If I'm reading this correctly, this means MM is scaling way better than BM / SV. Can you somehow forecast at which point MM is taking the lead?

    While I do trust sims, seems LW is little bit off - If I recall well, devs itself told LW will be go-to talent and other two weaker choices if you wish to play with a pet.
    It would be also interesting to see how are specializations looks like when we pit them with legendary items.
    No idea when they overtake each other, but I was simming ~880ish ilvl an hour or two ago and had MM way ahead of SV (didn't do any BM, can go do that now)

    SV was around 285k with Crit ~ vers > haste and having as little mastery as possible (2 pieces for 4pc I believe).
    Edit: http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...9b1db20da7c66c

    MM was around Edit: 322k with Mastery > haste > vers >crit, although most mastery pieces also had crit, so it was pretty much mastery/crit.
    http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...13feda5a75dedf

    Edit: I must've had a legendary on last time or something and didn't notice? I re-did it quickly and it's way lower.


    SV just scales so badly. No crit modifier, haste doesn't really do much other than the cooldown reductions, and mastery is literally dead weight.
    It's saddening because it's one of my favorite legion specs across all classes.

    Edit: I threw the two sims together really quick, they probably have errors, but yeah, major difference I'm seeing myself. I hope I'm just bad at sims and/or these won't transition to actual play.
    Last edited by Keltas; 2016-07-31 at 01:29 PM.

  7. #47
    Keep in mind that these particular artifact sims are without the item level upgrades to the weapon that come with the Wind, Blood and Life relics. So, it's going to look like MM is a bit lower than it really is, since it is so tied to weapon level upgrades. Uncommon relic upgrades appear to come mostly from quests (looking at wowhead for some of them) and do +2 ilvl per upgrade at the minimum (so +6 ilvl if you are in all quest artifact relics).

    I'm trying to think of how exactly I want to sim all of these damned things. I mean, according to wowhead, each of these relics in heroics and mythics can be upgraded many times, seemingly through the Titanforge system. Take this one for example:

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=140842/c...och&bonus=1807

    This seems to imply that there is a range of item levels from 835 (LFR) through 960 (Mythic fully titanforged). But even LFR can titanforge up to 915, at least on wowhead. No idea if this is real and verified in beta, but these are pretty sizeable swings in item level bump.

    For a listing, check these:
    Storm: http://www.wowhead.com/items/gems/storm-relic
    Blood: http://www.wowhead.com/items/gems/blood-relic
    Life: http://www.wowhead.com/items/gems/life-relic
    Last edited by Effinhunter; 2016-07-31 at 02:59 PM.

  8. #48
    I think its wrong to compare survival to MM/BM.
    If u cant beat any melee on dps, noone will take you and ppl will prefer always range over melee.

  9. #49
    The AMR simulator factors in the relics + ilevel increase, if that helps you at all.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    The AMR simulator factors in the relics + ilevel increase, if that helps you at all.
    After our discussions in Discord, I do think that the planned AMR way of doing simulation, stat weights, etc. is going to be really invaluable. I probably need to talk to you about AMR and navigating around it. I'm still hoping to get this all investigated in Simulationcraft, though, so others can replicate the results without needing to pay anything.

    My main issues with trying to exhaustively simulate all possible special relics in Simulationcraft are the following:
    1) Simulationcraft uses the artifact calculator at wowdb, which has these relics embedded into the configuration string (e.g. http://beta.wowdb.com/artifact-calcu...AYBIAh_/h_8iYm for http://www.wowhead.com/item=139262/r...mur&bonus=1807, http://www.wowhead.com/item=139260/b...ang&bonus=1807, and http://www.wowhead.com/item=140838/c...ere&bonus=1807). Because these are tied together, I would probably need to isolate where these relics are set in the string and do some hex math (or whatever system they're using) to iterate through the string automatedly. This is non-intuitive and highly likely to result in human error in the sims by misconfiguring something.
    2) These strings do not appear to have any way to upgrade the item level of the storm, blood, or life relics. So, they use some default level relic.
    3) I'm having trouble locating the artifact relics in the Simulationcraft output to validate that no human error took place.

    Right now, the only option I appear to have in Simulationcraft is to select each of these by hand in the artifact calculator and use the default level relic that is being used in the calculator. This is probably somewhat useful, but it is not ideal. My intuition is that the Quick Shot relics are going to be the highest dps increases, especially once Rapid Killing is selected, and then a gradient likely of Windrunner's Grace then Deadly Aim. Simulationcraft's current artifact import should help me with that, but the differences between the green, blue, and purple relics will be opaque to me without some custom item level changes for the artifact, assuming that's even effective right now.

    How is AMR handling the artifact relics right now?
    Last edited by Effinhunter; 2016-07-31 at 11:15 PM.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    Right now, the only option I appear to have in Simulationcraft is to select each of these by hand in the artifact calculator and use the default level relic that is being used in the calculator.
    How to handle relics in SimC: https://trueshotlodge.ca/forums/inde....msg295#msg295

  12. #52
    How accurate is the AMR simulator right now?

    I just ran BM vs MM with about 875 gear and 903 weapons, and BM came out meaningful higher than MM - on Iskar boss just for instance for instance MM=320k and BM=409k

    Effin - really nice to see you here. On gear just a suggestion - I at least would find useful a simple sim ranking of gear for each spec (not all the warforged or socketed or titan forged permutations, just the plan gear). That gives a good simple idea of the relative attractiveness of the base gear. Artifact relics do have complications, including giving points to traits that you may or may not already have - I would love to understand them better.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by silverstarzs View Post
    On gear just a suggestion - I at least would find useful a simple sim ranking of gear for each spec (not all the warforged or socketed or titan forged permutations, just the plan gear). That gives a good simple idea of the relative attractiveness of the base gear. Artifact relics do have complications, including giving points to traits that you may or may not already have - I would love to understand them better.
    Well, like I've said before, I think the ultimate goal this expansion would be to populate a SQL database with all the results and allow you to mix and match what you want to see. So, the simulation would be for everything, but the things you would search through could be just non-wf, non-socketed, non-titanforged. This would probably look similar to how AMR does its optimize thing, where you can select the things you want to see. Probably not going to be available before the expansion hits. I'm just thinking of how I'd like to present everything. An even better way would be to import things like AMR does and then just make recommendations according to the sims of better items so you can form a wishlist of what to be on the lookout for.

    BTW, running all storm relics for MM with the default wowdb settings. I'll see how this turns out. I'm still reading through Nakauri's gem/relic guide for artifacts. Maybe I'll have this all sorted out tonight.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    Well, like I've said before, I think the ultimate goal this expansion would be to populate a SQL database with all the results and allow you to mix and match what you want to see. So, the simulation would be for everything, but the things you would search through could be just non-wf, non-socketed, non-titanforged. This would probably look similar to how AMR does its optimize thing, where you can select the things you want to see. Probably not going to be available before the expansion hits. I'm just thinking of how I'd like to present everything. An even better way would be to import things like AMR does and then just make recommendations according to the sims of better items so you can form a wishlist of what to be on the lookout for.

    BTW, running all storm relics for MM with the default wowdb settings. I'll see how this turns out. I'm still reading through Nakauri's gem/relic guide for artifacts. Maybe I'll have this all sorted out tonight.
    Wouldn't that require pre-computing all reasonable gear setups beforehand? Or would you run a sim only if the given setup isn't already in the database, otherwise just fetch it?

  15. #55
    This would be with the gear set that the specific database would be tailored to (e.g., bis heroic raid gear level moving to mythic raid gear level). It would essentially output a shopping list for the gear option, sort of like I did in past tiers. The absolute best way to simulate gear is to use your current gearset with each item option because the stat weights shift, sometimes slightly, sometimes by double digits (in terms of percentages/normalized values). The lists are, at best, guides or shopping lists for gear to target bis. What I had done in the past is update two gear lists: one with heroic gear baseline and one with mythic gear baseline. After 2 months or so, we would just phase out the heroic gear baseline.

    Ultimately, though, as mentioned before, if you don't expect to simply farm the highest level content for months, then you may want to just sim your gear and only deviate all gear in a single slot as you get gear. This was the intent of the SEA (Simcraft Explorer Armory) tool, which is part of Simcraft Explorer and uses Simulationcraft under the hood. Unfortunately, all faq-like documentation for the SEA tool was lost when EJ went down. You can pass -h to it for options (e.g. %SE_ROOT%\se -h), but I need to recreate this documentation somewhere so people have a reasonable primer for it (the Wiki section of the Simcraft Explorer site is the most likely spot). The other option would be to simply use AMR (Ask Mr. Robot) or a similar service that estimates gear improvements

    - - - Updated - - -

    So, I did run some sims using the gem/relic system in Simcraft, but it was only adding item level and not trait bumps. I'm checking with Nakauri to see if this is on my end or Simulationcraft's.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Effinhunter View Post
    So, I did run some sims using the gem/relic system in Simcraft, but it was only adding item level and not trait bumps. I'm checking with Nakauri to see if this is on my end or Simulationcraft's.
    Sorry, looks like the first method I detailed isn't fulled implemented yet. Here's the update with the work around:
    https://trueshotlodge.ca/forums/inde....msg298#msg298

  17. #57
    I am Murloc! Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    No idea when they overtake each other, but I was simming ~880ish ilvl an hour or two ago and had MM way ahead of SV (didn't do any BM, can go do that now)

    SV was around 285k with Crit ~ vers > haste and having as little mastery as possible (2 pieces for 4pc I believe).
    Edit: http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...9b1db20da7c66c

    MM was around Edit: 322k with Mastery > haste > vers >crit, although most mastery pieces also had crit, so it was pretty much mastery/crit.
    http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...13feda5a75dedf

    Edit: I must've had a legendary on last time or something and didn't notice? I re-did it quickly and it's way lower.


    SV just scales so badly. No crit modifier, haste doesn't really do much other than the cooldown reductions, and mastery is literally dead weight.
    It's saddening because it's one of my favorite legion specs across all classes.

    Edit: I threw the two sims together really quick, they probably have errors, but yeah, major difference I'm seeing myself. I hope I'm just bad at sims and/or these won't transition to actual play.
    If there does turn out to be an issue with SV scaling, and Blizz decides to address it, where might they start? What would need to change?

    - - - Updated - - -

    1st thing that comes to mind is buffing Mastery significantly? So that it becomes desirable again?

    Felfaadaern Darkterror ~.~ Peacekeeper Benhir
    Tanks, KSM, AotC

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    If there does turn out to be an issue with SV scaling, and Blizz decides to address it, where might they start? What would need to change?

    - - - Updated - - -

    1st thing that comes to mind is buffing Mastery significantly? So that it becomes desirable again?
    Mastery needs to be reworked, or have something added to it. I've been suggesting MB damage since that would make the most sense.

    If they fix that we still won't scale well, but it would do wonders for our gearing process. That sim had 1800~ mastery on gear (two pieces) and it was still that low.

    I don't expect a full mastery rework at this point, but they could always make the MB charge into a passive that procs on pet crits (thus making crit valuable) and our new mastery could be something else. Kinda at a loss myself on that though. Trap and MB damage I guess? It'd mess up t100 talents, but meh. I'm sure someone could come up with a better mastery.
    Last edited by Keltas; 2016-08-01 at 08:47 AM.

  19. #59
    I am Murloc! Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltas View Post
    Mastery needs to be reworked, or have something added to it. I've been suggesting MB damage since that would make the most sense.

    If they fix that we still won't scale well, but it would do wonders for our gearing process. That sim had 1800~ mastery on gear (two pieces) and it was still that low.

    I don't expect a full mastery rework at this point, but they could always make the MB charge into a passive that procs on pet crits (thus making crit valuable) and our new mastery could be something else. Kinda at a loss myself on that though. Trap and MB damage I guess? It'd mess up t100 talents, but meh. I'm sure someone could come up with a better mastery.
    If we're talking about scaling, we have to talk about something that interacts - directly or indirectly - with the stats on our gear, right? Since that's the main thing that changes after we hit max level? They could buff the rate at which mastery generates extra charges of MB, so that more mastery actually produced a noticeable effect. I suppose there is such at thing as too many charges of MB, in the sense that at some point they'd be crowding out other abilities we want to keep in the rotation. Or they could have mastery increase the extra damage we gain from consecutive MB.

    Felfaadaern Darkterror ~.~ Peacekeeper Benhir
    Tanks, KSM, AotC

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by GranitXhaka29 View Post
    no locks or mages in the raid huh
    4 locks, 1 mage. Guess they are under performing since they should be beating me, though wow MM AOE is strong now.

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