Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Illana]

But when I mentioned like ~4-6 years of hunter gametime - 2 years (a whole expansion too btw) of which we did nothing but pressing the same macro over and over again and ended up being like top#3 or #4 all the time, it was cherry picking?
On top of that, I didn't play cata myself, but a small google search shows SV as the most common and also as the raiding hunter DPS spec during that time. Though I don't know where to get pre-mop logs from.
So the other 2 specs were even easier and had even more "movement" than unlimited movement?

And just to be clear, you didn't mention more examples, you just named a few classes you considered difficult. That's all. I didn't even know why you mentioned them until now.




But movement isn't the only thing about difficulty. SV has unlimited movement too, yet it's mechanically much more difficult than BM, isn't it? It's also not noticeably ahead on a dummy fight, if it even is...

We can continue this forever, so far nothing but asspulls are being made though.

It should be pretty clear by now that Blizzards balancing approach is completely random (as in: who gets to do the most damage) and they don't care about difficulty at all.
And I'm less and less sure about whether we are actually talking about spec/class difficulty here... because "unlimited movement" is basically a niche comparable to MMs superior AoE dmg and has barely anything to do with difficulty - it's not that alone that makes BM easy to play right now.
And since we should come back to the start of our discussion at some point, this is also why it's a problem.
I/You have no control over how easy or hard your spec can possibly get. That's for Blizzard to decide.. which means it can change on a whim. Which means it would be arbitary to balance classes and specs around that.

I'd also a stupid design decision, because how much difficulty is how much DPS? Like.. how do you even start to balance this out?

I played through MoP and cata, MoP was mostly marks at the start and then BM towards the end (siege) bm was easy but not quite as easy as it is now. Cata was pretty much marks for first 2 raid tiers and then sv for rest, marks was not particularly hard either at that point as it still had full mobility

I agree that unlimited movement is not the only thing making BM easier right now, however it's still a big proponent of it.
If you look at the top dps specs at the moment although the game has gotten easier you can see that warriors, locks and boomkins all have higher skill ceilings compared to BM.

if you honestly thing that difficulty of play has no impact on how blizzard balance classes you're ignoring years of empirical data (of course with some anomalies) that prove you wrong.

[Deleted]

if you honestly thing that difficulty of play has no impact on how blizzard balance classes you're ignoring years of empirical data (of course with some anomalies) that prove you wrong.

Data you are making up (and we haven't seen) and that isn't even backed up by anything but your imagination.

[Illana]

Data you are making up (and we haven't seen) and that isn't even backed up by anything but your imagination.

All historical logs dating back to VoA in wotlk are available on worldoflogs, you have to go back a fair bit to get logs that were from the actual expansion though

They show what I've stated previously, the specs I've mentioned being strongest while also retaining a high skill cap. The evidence is there should you choose to read it

Firelands logs for example: http://www.worldoflogs.com/ranking/e...heroic-25/dps/ almost all sub/combat rogue and fire mage

Siege of orgrimmar, ignoring the stupid vengeance stacking logs you can see that afflock unequivocally the top dog and as you go down in rankings enhancement shamans, bm hunters and mages start popping up.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/ranking/e...oic-25/dps/p2/

Evidence is there, I've given you a start. Up to you whether or not you analyse and accept the facts or continue with your fairytale

[Deleted]

All historical logs dating back to VoA in wotlk are available on worldoflogs, you have to go back a fair bit to get logs that were from the actual expansion though

They show what I've stated previously, the specs I've mentioned being strongest while also retaining a high skill cap. The evidence is there should you choose to read it

Firelands logs for example: http://www.worldoflogs.com/ranking/e...heroic-25/dps/ almost all sub/combat rogue and fire mage

Siege of orgrimmar, ignoring the stupid vengeance stacking logs you can see that afflock unequivocally the top dog and as you go down in rankings enhancement shamans, bm hunters and mages start popping up.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/ranking/e...oic-25/dps/p2/

Evidence is there, I've given you a start. Up to you whether or not you analyse and accept the facts or continue with your fairytale

And where can I see whether a spec is actually harder to play than the spec that wasn't played or that of the class that deals less damage?
What about the specs that are easier to play that also show up on these logs? Like WoD early SV, or WoD late MM?

All I can see here is your pathetic attempt to ignore all the data that doesn't fit your "fairytale"

On top of that, wtf - that's one Boss. Each Boss has a different spec and class on top. The only thing someone can see from this is that some classes have a niche they are good at.
And from the bluepost I posted earlier, we know that the goal is to adjust clear outliners.

And most of these logs are garbage too, Shadowpriest #1 1,551,866 same log same raid #2 401,351.7
Such nonsense. More than half of them are probably boosted in some way or another. Unless you give me an average overview, these logs are worth nothing - as all "max percentile" logs normally are.

[Illana]

they're all there for you to browse. I'm not withholding any information from you. Those are the ones I picked as they were generally used as a DPS benchmark for the respective raids.

I didn't play WoD so I can't comment on that.
As for determining whether or not a spec was hard to play or not, that's something you would have had to experienced yourself or go off the archived guides for classes such as this: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...pecific-Guides

The information is out there, again it's your choice whether or not you use it or continue to shout inside your echo chamber.

[Deleted]

It's my choice to decide which spec or class is hard or not?

You said earlier that WotLK MM was fairly advanced, or difficult or something. Let me tell you, it was so-fucking-not.

So how do we decide this now? And isn't that exactly why this discussion started?

On top of that posting a lot of data with absolutely no way of interpreting it properly doesn't really prove your point, you know. Even the dates are all over the place, who knows if they are even the same patch? Or more important, if these logs were actually made when the content was relevant.

Please spare us these pathetic attempts to justify your non-sense.

[Illana]

It's my choice to decide which spec or class is hard or not?

You said earlier that WotLK MM was fairly advanced, or difficult or something. Let me tell you, it was so-fucking-not.

So how do we decide this now? And isn't that exactly why this discussion started?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...nter-Guide-3-3

You're right the basic rotation is fairly simple, however when you put it into a raid situation where you have to time your movement not only for steady shot but also for autoshots, things get a bit more tricky.

Maybe you never put too much thought into your swing timer or getting as many steady shots off as possible, however that doesn't remove the fact that these two things were part of the skill ceiling and were relatively challenging to do well depending on encounter.

[Deleted]

No it wasn't challenging, you could move from A to B by pressing W a hundred times in quick succession.
On top of that it's just a small part of your damage and isn't much different from casting firebolts/frostbolts/whatever has a cast time. We were the most mobile class for sure, I did basically every single extra job there was.

Kiting adds for the achievement while still doing damage on bosses (Lady Deathwhisper), absorbing orbs because we could actually do that and still do high amounts of damage etc. etc.

It wasn't more of a challenge than the 2 years of mousewheeling my rotation before that.
In fact - and I really have to laugh now - it was easier, because BM did only do Steady shot and Auto shot in BC... at least I had extreme high damage instant casts in WotLK and part of my damage were dots.

[Makro]

From my experience:

WotLK: UH DK, feral, fury warr challenging to play.
Cataclysm: Combat rogue, survival hunter, retpaladin (clcret made it easier though), fire mage
mop: afflock, destrolock, fury, combat rogue, enh shaman

Unholy dk had literally 4 buttons to press (IT, PS, BS, SS) in a predefined rotation with zero procs.

[Illana]

No it wasn't challenging, you could move from A to B by pressing W a hundred times in quick succession.
On top of that it's just a small part of your damage and isn't much different from casting firebolts/frostbolts/whatever has a cast time. We were the most mobile class for sure, I did basically every single extra job there was.

Kiting adds for the achievement while still doing damage on bosses (Lady Deathwhisper), absorbing orbs because we could actually do that and still do high amounts of damage etc. etc.

It wasn't more of a challenge than the 2 years of mousewheeling my rotation before that.
In fact - and I really have to laugh now - it was easier, because BM did only do Steady shot and Auto shot in BC... at least I had extreme high damage instant casts in WotLK and part of my damage were dots.

autoshots were over 30% of your damage (factoring in piercing shots) if you were playing correctly:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/kgu9j...?s=4089&e=4266

so I guess you pressing w 100 times didnt work out as well as you believed it did or you're just bsing and actually never played hunter during ToC/ICC

Maybe you got given all the jobs because everyone elses dps was better...? Since you clearly didn't know how to make the most of your autoshots

- - - Updated - - -

Unholy dk had literally 4 buttons to press (IT, PS, BS, SS) in a predefined rotation with zero procs.

You're right, I'm thinking of cata UH

[Deleted]

autoshots were over 30% of your damage (factoring in piercing shots) if you were playing correctly:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/kgu9j...?s=4089&e=4266

so I guess you pressing w 100 times didnt work out as well as you believed it did or you're just bsing and actually never played hunter during ToC/ICC

Maybe you got given all the jobs because everyone elses dps was better...? Since you clearly didn't know how to make the most of your autoshots


You're right, I'm thinking of cata UH

´

Uhmm..piercing shots not affecting Auto-Shots aside, you clearly don't know what pressing w 100 times in quick succession does. it's the definition of stutter stepping.
I did pretty well in WotLK, thank you, I have pretty much every Server first title there is from that time and I was also in a top 100 or 200 guild. Even logged top 10 during progression in the first few weeks and month. Though back then, the logging-site was different, had a red theme, and eventually died out when another one appeared that was simply better. I'm pretty sure at least that the site's name wasn't "Warcraftlogs".

And yes, it's 30% Overall damage, but you it seems like you don't understand that Hunter's who didn't stutter step did also do auto-shots.
Depending on whether some of our guild videos still exist someone in the vast expanse of the internet, you can even see me steadyshot/autoshot stepping (between AiS+CS) towards some other guy from the other side of the room to get bitten on that vampire Boss - because as I said already, hunter had the easiest time moving around.

Once more, it becomes obvious that you are making shit up and don't know how to read the numbers.
You don't get 30% from stutterstepping your autoshots. At beast I'd assume a 5% increase, because that means you'd delay *every* autoshot for like 1/3 of a second - 1/2 a second on average.

[Holovik]

This whole last page is not at all on topic of "Legion Theorycrafting"...

[Illana]

This whole last page is not at all on topic of "Legion Theorycrafting"...

You're right

I'm gonna agree to disagree here and stop

but the site was called warcraftlogs as I used it when it was still the only logging service out there.

[Holovik]

You're right

I'm gonna agree to disagree here and stop

but the site was called warcraftlogs as I used it when it was still the only logging service out there.

To jump off topic with you really fast, I'm pretty sure the logging site for BC/WoTLK/Cata was Worldoflogs. That was the only game in town until Cata I think and then in Warlords, WCL just became better.

[Illana]

sorry yeah it was worldoflogs, I just mistyped.

[Deleted]

You're right

I'm gonna agree to disagree here and stop

but the site was called warcraftlogs as I used it when it was still the only logging service out there.

Me too, sorry.

I might be able to find my logs from back then if that's the site. Though I really don't remember it being that complex and just by glancing over it I can't even find a proper search engine on that site.

Eh... I think I understand why it died.

[Effinhunter]

Since the thread got derailed for a while and I didn't see any other discrepancies/complaints with the runs, I've updated first post with the most recent sim runs from page 92.

[Deleted]

nevermind...

[Dracodraco]

Since the thread got derailed for a while and I didn't see any other discrepancies/complaints with the runs, I've updated first post with the most recent sim runs from page 92.

Looking through the logs as I'm trying to find any reason I can that Sephuz is somehow simulated wrong (because I can't wrap my head around it being worth 14K more than any other legendary out of literally everything for my BM spec) and not finding anything on the base ring, do you know exactly how it works? You model the haste proc as 9375 haste, but I was under the impression it always had 2% of the haste, and spiked to 25% under the proc (so a 23% haste proc, not 25%). Is your on-use slightly overvalued, or how does the base ring gets simulated in terms of the passive haste?

[Effinhunter]

Looking through the logs as I'm trying to find any reason I can that Sephuz is somehow simulated wrong (because I can't wrap my head around it being worth 14K more than any other legendary out of literally everything for my BM spec) and not finding anything on the base ring, do you know exactly how it works? You model the haste proc as 9375 haste, but I was under the impression it always had 2% of the haste, and spiked to 25% under the proc (so a 23% haste proc, not 25%). Is your on-use slightly overvalued, or how does the base ring gets simulated in terms of the passive haste?

You are correct. This is modeling the old mechanics of sephuz and has not been updated for the recent changes of 2% baseline. The difference shouldn't make the current sims too op on the top end. What it should do is make the ring more powerful, especially as a baseline with no interrupts. I do know that sephuz is very powerful if you can frequently interrupt. We're seeing this in top parses on Mistress for not only total damage but also boss only damage.