Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Azortharion]

Well, this thread isn't really about me, or you. I'm a bit disappointed that you decided to start flaming me when I have no stake in this argument and it's a bit sad to see because while you don't like me, I'm way better than I was like, a year ago or whatever, and even in the Discord you dislike so much you won't see me flaming you, calling you an idiot, and accusing you of various bad things that aren't true. Even when you're not straight up defaming me, you're taking half-truths and spinning them into all manners of craziness to suit whatever awful thing you wanna say about me. Can you please just stop and accept that you don't like me and leave the defamation and flaming to yourself - I haven't even bothered you, dude.

I don't know what "using" someone for theorycrafting is. Isn't dialogue and talking about the class part of theorycrafting? I talked at length with Kenny and others about TC, and some of the conclusions made from that got into the guide because it's good information. I didn't give credit because it was the combined efforts of myself, those and other people. I just didn't think to do it, I don't think anyone feels slighted except you on their behalf. It's not like I am claiming everything to be exclusively done by me, either, I don't really attach this sort of info to what I put in the guides. It's just, there. I've never straight ripped someone's math or sims for the guide, I've talked to people and used their feedback and knowledge about theorycrafting to make the guides better, for sure, and Kenny is super intelligent about that stuff and we'd often talk about Marksmanship rotational stuff pre-Legion. Does he feel slighted? I don't know, he should bring it up to me if that is the case because I respect Kenny a lot.

I don't know what you mean by guild hopping, either. Maybe like 2-3 years ago (yet hardly even then), that may have been the case? No idea otherwise. I'm in a great, fun 3-day guild right now, after my previous great, fun, 3-day guild (Vanguard) stopped raiding. I joined Vanguard after my previous guild (Drive) essentially disbanded..

I once paid our Unh DK on one boss in Siege of Orgrimmar to get Unholy Frenzy. Other than that I have never done what you describe, in SoO or since then. I don't understand why I am being flamed about this regardless.

I have no issues with you, just please don't flame/defame me unlesss I give you a good reason to and I won't defame/flame you either with no provocation.

[Mavick]

This is kind of the problem with Raidbots and Simcraft, in general. The great thing is they allow anyone to sim something. The bad thing is people like you use them and call themselves an important theorycrafter. People can use them and be generally ok at their class, even if they don't understand anything about what is going on underneath the hood. As you've said before, "Mavick", you don't believe you have to understand the way Simcraft works, how the APL gets developed that gets verbatim copied into guides, the fact that relics matter, or that trinkets affect spec breakdowns.

Good job at, once again, making it sound like I said something I absolutely did not. I believe you're referencing an earlier comment I made about not needing to have the ability you have at "scripting" gearsets into SimC, when Raidbots provides you the interface to do that more easily now. STOP. FUCKING. MISQUOTING. ME. I never, EVER said that I didn't need to understand how SimC or apl development works, as I've quite clearly taken an active interest in it if you read my earlier posts. That being said, anyone could quite easily do what you do if they deemed it a necessary use of time. But since it's not, particularly with the advent of Raidbots, why bother?

But for those of us who are helping "the BM hunters you frequently talk to" understand the underlying mechanics of the class, we have to understand all of these things or else we're going to do... whatever it is you're doing right now. There are still many of us here who had to theorycraft before we even had simulators for WoW, where threads were just long posts of math that had to be constantly corrected (no one wants this, it was awful). It was far harder to do back then and there were so many errors pushed into the community by bad math, but the point is, we've been through the iterations of how good answers were derived for expansions now. For those of us who are trying to gain insight into the class and not just screaming "BUT RAIDBOTS MADE ME DO IT!", reading what you are typing right now is a lesson in patience and deflection of abject absurdity.

You know, I get it. It's sad that you haven't caught up to the fact that it's no longer 2010 and there's actually a fair amount of people that know quite a bit more about theorycraft than they did then, myself included. Quite frankly: we don't need you. There's been not one bit of useful information provided in this thread in I don't know how long, that wasn't already covered in a Discord dicussion or Azor's thread. And the fact that you're claiming, somehow, that I'm simply screaming "RAIDBOTS MADE ME DO IT!", (which is just SimC, let's be honest, at least I'm smart enough to burn up their CPU's instead of my own) when you repeatedly post horrible sims that you know people look at (and amazingly, thank you for) and base their lack of knowledge on that. Yes, I know you add caveats to them, but you know it's not enough. The discussion that takes place following them is largely gross misinterpretations or just leads to nothing of merit. That's why this thread gets made fun on on a weekly basis in Discord, essentially.

Everything you've said in this thread, and quite frankly any others, is categorically false, misleading and/or useless. I've stopped reading your posts because they're just angry typing of nonsense. I don't have time to deal with the crowdsourced stupidity that goes on in "BM discord." I have more important things to work on than filtering through bad theorycrafting, bad advice, and obnoxious personalities. All of this reminds me of another hunter who has a history of getting banned on these forums, steals theorycrafting from others and claims it as his own, exploits to get ranks (e.g., SMV buff and many pet-related exploits, fruit-basket/tier swaps and God knows what else this expansion), guild hops and pays guildies for exclusive time on AoE to pad ranks, targets adds that are not killable to pad ranks, has used sock puppets to engineer fake arguments on forums in the past, and is generally a complete idiot. It's almost like the two of you are the same person. Attempting to have a dialogue with either of your online personalities is a waste of time, and I'm not doing it anymore.

Yes we know you don't have time. Or rather, you couldn't join even if you wanted to because you were banned for spreading misinformation. That's why you're considered a joke and not even a part of the real theorycraft community anymore. And if I'm "categorically false, misleading and/or useless" by all means, point it out rather than making some bland stupid statement such as this. I know the times you've *tried*, and utterly failed, at any rate.

If you don't like reading theorycrafting and would instead like to hang out all day on Raidbots simming your own gear, convincing yourself that you are an elite theorycrafter, and sharing your personal sims in "BM discord", please, for the love of God, do those things. No one knows you. You're not as important or knowledgeable as you appear to think you are. And if you've found people in "BM discord" who will listen to your brilliant insights about how relics and trinkets don't matter, please go there. That would be really swell.

I read theorycraft all the time, I just stick to useful and accurate theorycraft. That's why I only come in here to point out when someone says something stupid and inaccurate, such as this time, which unfortunately, given the author, happens far too frequently. And don't kid yourself, people only know you because you were one of the first and we were too dumb at the time to tell if you knew what you were talking about. Alot of us have grown up now, and know "fake news" when we see it.

The contrast between you and Azor is staggering. Azor can be, or at least has been, a cunt at times. But alot of the time it's a justifiable response to stupidity, frankly. And at least with him, if you approach him directly on matters with a solid base of reasoning, he'll look at it and include it. I know this from experience. You, on the other hand, even when I suggest nicely just fly off the rails and eventually lead to some kind of asinine statement along the lines of "BUT I AM TEH THEORYCRAFTER". This is why you will always be a joke to me.

[Azortharion]

And since I know you'll think that me and Mavick are best buddies rooting up against you, no, I have no horse in this race and I'm not even reading these hyper-long posts. I was simply disappointed to be flamed when all I wanted was some popcorn.

[Deleted]

Draco, I must admit, you are a fucking beast when argumenting. /ggnore

[Mavick]

And since I know you'll think that me and Mavick are best buddies rooting up against you, no, I have no horse in this race and I'm not even reading these hyper-long posts. I was simply disappointed to be flamed when all I wanted was some popcorn.

Oh I'm sure he'll misconstrue that just like everything else, which would be hilarious to all the people that have seen us go at each other on Discord. But at any rate, I would apologize for using the word "Azor" and forgetting that that guarantees sending Effin into a jealous rage-fit.

[eschatological]

I can't believe I have to say this after literally years of this squabble - DO NOT FLAME OTHER USERS. I don't care if it's anonymous without mentioning names, I don't care if you think it's based in truth, etc. This is a theorycrafting thread.

A note on theorycrafting, as well. It's long been the rule that you can debate theorycrafting if you have your own to back it up. Facts are important. You can debate the efficacy of the methodology, you can debate the relevance of the data, you can debate the context within which the theory is crafted in. But statements of "falsity" or "misleading" are statements of fact and intent, which need to be 1) not debated by you, and 2) referred to a moderator if you think a person is actually deliberately misleading someone with false information. Even if you disagree with the methods someone uses, as long as their information is not deliberately false and has the usual caveats of all theorycrafting, that is fine. There is NEVER a reason to call a person in this thread stupid.

It's been literally 4 years since Siege of Orgrimmar guys. Jesus. Stop acting like 13 year olds split on whether XBox or Playstation is better.

[Deleted]

It's been literally 4 years since Siege of Orgrimmar guys. Jesus. Stop acting like 13 year olds split on whether XBox or Playstation is better.

please don't flame other users

[Mavick]

I can't believe I have to say this after literally years of this squabble - DO NOT FLAME OTHER USERS. I don't care if it's anonymous without mentioning names, I don't care if you think it's based in truth, etc. This is a theorycrafting thread.

A note on theorycrafting, as well. It's long been the rule that you can debate theorycrafting if you have your own to back it up. Facts are important. You can debate the efficacy of the methodology, you can debate the relevance of the data, you can debate the context within which the theory is crafted in. But statements of "falsity" or "misleading" are statements of fact and intent, which need to be 1) not debated by you, and 2) referred to a moderator if you think a person is actually deliberately misleading someone with false information. Even if you disagree with the methods someone uses, as long as their information is not deliberately false and has the usual caveats of all theorycrafting, that is fine. There is NEVER a reason to call a person in this thread stupid.

It's been literally 4 years since Siege of Orgrimmar guys. Jesus. Stop acting like 13 year olds split on whether XBox or Playstation is better.

Thanks for reminding us of another reason why nobody takes this thread seriously anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

please don't flame other users

Seriously. But, you know, infract them for it nonetheles of course.

[Kissthebaby]

My theory craft is that even though azor is an Asshole, at least he not a huge fag like effinhunter

[Azortharion]

I'm reformed bro.

[Mavick]

Yeah, just an asshole now, minus the capital A

[Kissthebaby]

I'm reformed bro.

I believe you

[Donkeywing]

My theory craft is that even though azor is an Asshole, at least he not a huge fag like effinhunter

I think all of you are assholes, a standard trait accompanying decent hunters
Except Kenny, seems like everyone wants to bang him

[Azortharion]

Kenny is no longer a Hunter, therefore he can't be an asshole, so your theory works.

but really im reformed

[Effinhunter]

---- MM Combos ----
So, it took me slightly longer than I anticipated to redo the MM combo sims. Sorry about that. I ended up adding a LOT more combos for MM than I've been doing previously. I like to see breakdowns of just how bad of a dps hit I take if I need to equip healing legendaries and pydraz for shields during progression, so I've added a lot more options since the last time I did these. I'm also doing breakdowns of both LnL and TA builds, and I'll continue that in the T21 breakdowns when I get to them.

I unfortunately did not have time for SV combos yet. I'll get on those when I can.

MM legendary combos, Single Target, LnL, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl (Simcraft Source)


MM legendary combos, Single Target, TA, 69 traits, 930/975 ilvl (Simcraft Source)


If Huntmaster is equipped on LnL, I switch the talents to TA so you get both as intended. I marked them _ta so there will be less possibility of confusion. 10k iterations, as usual. Deviation is easily 2k with TA, so keep that in mind. I did try to triple check entries for duplicate legendaries and such in the output HTML, but if you see something awry here, please let me know.

When I do the T21 breakdowns, btw, I'm planning on just doing 75 traits and possibly filling in crucibles with 3 bis, maybe a middling selection of 2nd tiers, and a 2nd bis in the third tier. No reason to lowball here. It is a theorycrafting thread. Might as well go nuts. Obvious caveat will be that getting BiS and 2nd BiS 1st and 3rd tier with a good dps 2nd tier crucible trait can be difficult to do, but most of us have managed to get reasonably close to that by greedily begging loot councils for a chance at duplicate relics .

[Kennyloggins]

Kenny is no longer a Hunter, therefore he can't be an asshole, so your theory works.

but really im reformed

lmao if you think that

[Azortharion]

Thought you were hpala but seems you changed back, I can't keep up with everything!

[Biomega]

Everyone is a little bit hunter, inside. And that never goes away.