Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[caph]

For the Bm sims I noticed you used t20 gloves + t19 cloak

Wont t20 head+shoulder+chest+cloak with t19 leggs+gloves be more optimal?
Lose out on a smidge of mastery from the t19 cloak but you gain alot of haste and some crit.

And maybe test with bti + medallion

You will want to use shoulders, hands and especially cloak if using t19 2pc with t20 4pc in general. These 3 slots have the lowest stat budget of your tier slots (especially the cloak, even lower then gloves/shoulders), so using a low ilvl item in one of those slots usually does not hurt as much as using a low ilvl item in of the 3 "big" slots. Remember our stat weights are still relatively close so we actually take most ilevel upgrades (apart from jewelry) regardless of stats. This is just a generalization though - in the end it all depends on what you actually have and the answer here is probably to sim yourself because it will heavily depend on your own gear and the replacement options you personally have.

[Ettan]

I think you two forget that you are not neccesarily losing any ilvl with t19 pices.

[Deleted]

Does anyone know if the second aimed shot that triggered the buff of the T20 2Set also benefits from the buff?

[Effinhunter]

I think you two forget that you are not neccesarily losing any ilvl with t19 pices.

In truth, the selection is arbitrary and cloak was based on the fact that the stat impact was lower here on cloak, hands, shoulders, so you are very likely to replace the head, leg, chest slots with mythic T20 due to simply increasing more base agi.

That being said these are not optimal, and with how highly variable people's wf/tf gear from T19 is, people should input their own gear. I used to include a feature in Simcraft Explorer that allowed mixing and matching equipped armory gear with variations of tier. It's probably time to update that feature and show people how to use it for themselves to show improvements when 2pc/4pc and best combos for equipped gear.

Another thing in my list of things to do is to try to break down where transitions in talents with tier is happening for t20 2pc and 4pc. Owtp/bf df/stomp kind of breakdowns.

[Chickensoup23]

In truth, the selection is arbitrary and cloak was based on the fact that the stat impact was lower here on cloak, hands, shoulders, so you are very likely to replace the head, leg, chest slots with mythic T20 due to simply increasing more base agi.

That being said these are not optimal, and with how highly variable people's wf/tf gear from T19 is, people should input their own gear. I used to include a feature in Simcraft Explorer that allowed mixing and matching equipped armory gear with variations of tier. It's probably time to update that feature and show people how to use it for themselves to show improvements when 2pc/4pc and best combos for equipped gear.

Another thing in my list of things to do is to try to break down where transitions in talents with tier is happening for t20 2pc and 4pc. Owtp/bf df/stomp kind of breakdowns.

From the sims I ran, it seems like once you reach 4 PC is where you want to switch. 2 pc/2 pc still yielded a marginal but still present (~11k) increase in favor of stomp/OtWP.

And you are correct in that there is no magical formula: whatever pieces work, work. I myself am the lucky owner of a 925 T19 cloak, you can sure bet that thing is staying in there for pretty much the rest of the tier or until I somehow manage to become ilvl 945 total.

On that note, I'm not sure how Blizz feels about people using two sets in favor of current tier off-pieces, I would think they would make its so you can only benefit from one set (eventually). I have to agree myself that while it is optimal, it feels weird/wrong. Time will tell, I guess.

[Khrux]

The move to t20 is really painful, all of the pieces except the chest are pretty bad stat wise. I'm lucky to have 925 t19 legs so i'll pretty much ignore the t20 legs forever as they are complete garbage. The other awkward thing is that the off set pieces in ToS are excellent but you are held back from using them because of legendaries.

I feel like if this was the first tier set we'd be grabbing the least shit 4 pieces of t20 and filling in every off set slot with great stat items to bring our stat weights inline with what we want. In reality we're stuck in a weird transition of trying to move to a shit tier, that has terrible stats, while juggling our existing 2pc and fitting in 2 legendaries on top. Gearing over these next few weeks is a nightmare.

[jaimelannister]

The move to t20 is really painful, all of the pieces except the chest are pretty bad stat wise. I'm lucky to have 925 t19 legs so i'll pretty much ignore the t20 legs forever as they are complete garbage. The other awkward thing is that the off set pieces in ToS are excellent but you are held back from using them because of legendaries.

I feel like if this was the first tier set we'd be grabbing the least shit 4 pieces of t20 and filling in every off set slot with great stat items to bring our stat weights inline with what we want. In reality we're stuck in a weird transition of trying to move to a shit tier, that has terrible stats, while juggling our existing 2pc and fitting in 2 legendaries on top. Gearing over these next few weeks is a nightmare.

Given that our stat weights (at least for BM) are very close, it seems like you're blowing things out of proportion. If you can get a H ToS drop that ends up being 15-20 ilvl upgrade, then it will easily be an upgrade regardless of secondary stat selection, especially for non-jewelry pieces that have Agility. Sure, if you're only looking at 5 ilvl upgrades, the secondaries may come into play somewhat, but I don't see it as being that big of a burden.

[Deleted]

@Effinhunter, you should really consider set arc/cos in your simc.

[Ceylina]

Just curious but why is the apex ring so high with t20 and the new ring (huntmaster) so low?

[Dracodraco]

Just curious but why is the apex ring so high with t20 and the new ring (huntmaster) so low?

Because Apex is better and huntsmaster is worse, 'duh.

[GoKs]

Because Apex is better and huntsmaster is worse, 'duh.

I must admit you made me chuckle. But this is by far the worst reply I saw you give, you normally provide data to back up your statement..... You missing Azor? =P

[Dracodraco]

I must admit you made me chuckle. But this is by far the worst reply I saw you give, you normally provide data to back up your statement..... You missing Azor? =P

Pfft I'm a disc priest now I don't know nuffin' bout hunters.
But seriously, the best answer you're going to get is "because it sims better". It's like comparing a car engine to an apple; Huntsmaster gives a higher chance at a proc that results in a DPS / uptime gain, while the ring just gives a flat damage buff. The value of the flat buff outweights the value of the proc, according to sims. There's no easy way to compare the two to each other and point out "this is why X is worse", because they function entirely differently. I personally doubt the ring is actually as strong as is suggested in a real environment, because I have issues seeing the QOL of more dire beast procs being outweighted by a flat 5% damage buff to *just* my main pet. Likewise, the huntsmaster is a lot stronger on AOE than the apex ring, while realistically, they really shouldn't have much of a difference, considering AOE is "just" higher uptime on 3 stack frenzy for the hunts ring (which is usually fairly easy to obtain if you know adds are comming anyway), while the apex ring is a flat 5% buff to your pet and it's cleaves.

[Jurassic]

Pfft I'm a disc priest now I don't know nuffin' bout hunters.
But seriously, the best answer you're going to get is "because it sims better". It's like comparing a car engine to an apple; Huntsmaster gives a higher chance at a proc that results in a DPS / uptime gain, while the ring just gives a flat damage buff. The value of the flat buff outweights the value of the proc, according to sims. There's no easy way to compare the two to each other and point out "this is why X is worse", because they function entirely differently. I personally doubt the ring is actually as strong as is suggested in a real environment, because I have issues seeing the QOL of more dire beast procs being outweighted by a flat 5% damage buff to *just* my main pet. Likewise, the huntsmaster is a lot stronger on AOE than the apex ring, while realistically, they really shouldn't have much of a difference, considering AOE is "just" higher uptime on 3 stack frenzy for the hunts ring (which is usually fairly easy to obtain if you know adds are comming anyway), while the apex ring is a flat 5% buff to your pet and it's cleaves.

I think the damage buff to apex is actually 5.6%

[Dracodraco]

I think the damage buff to apex is actually 5.6%

Any reason to think that? http://www.wowhead.com/spell=212329/...predators-claw spellid seems to be 5%.

[WeaszelB]

Any reason to think that? http://www.wowhead.com/spell=212329/...predators-claw spellid seems to be 5%.

Probably something to do with how it interacts with Combat Experience. Supposedly with ring it changes the tooltip percent from 60% to 69%. It should be an exact 68%. Assuming no rounding fuckery, which it shouldn't since it should be a whole number, 69% would actually be a 5.625% increase.

I'm going to assume tooltip error, but you never know. I lack the ring to test it.

[Jurassic]

Any reason to think that? http://www.wowhead.com/spell=212329/...predators-claw spellid seems to be 5%.

Combat Experience, nvm he already explained.

[Effinhunter]

@Effinhunter, you should really consider set arc/cos in your simc.

Are you asking for me to include the set from arcway and court of stars? I had them in for a while but someone claimed last tier that it was unreasonable for me to include them at higher levels because no one had them, or something.

It would be reasonable, imo, to include them in configurations of the 900-915 tier/set breakdowns. Especially with tfs proccing up to such high levels right now.

[Vurrin]

Next week M+will have mythic gear drooping @ 910 -915 or w/e. While I don't think its a realistic to assume a 935+ set of them it could be useful to see how a 915/heroic ToS ilvl set compares, and how many ilvls of gear it "makes up for" with its proc, and a general idea of when you'd want to replace it.

This helps people decide if its worth farming for in general, or if they get 1 of the pieces with a high TF, etc.

[Deleted]

Are you asking for me to include the set from arcway and court of stars? I had them in for a while but someone claimed last tier that it was unreasonable for me to include them at higher levels because no one had them, or something.

I'm not asking anything. I do my own simc so your simcs dont change anything for me

But since cos/arc set has always been the best in MM since Legion, and there's a chance that 4t20+arc/cos will be better than 4t20+2t19 (still in MM), I think you should put them in your simclist for a 915 version (non-proc version next week).
If people dont have them and dont want to have them, they just ignore those, no big deal.

[Vindicit]

how many of you actually use the cos/arc set? I dont, no one I know uses it. The sims should be set up how most of the community is gearing. Then for what ever combo is being simulated at the time, use the cos/arc set on the the 1 best combo so we have 1 comparison to see how much better that set is.