Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Bisso]

Thanks for answer i guess. Does anyone have a BM log where i can look it up myself ?

you can always go to beta.askmrrobot.com (i believe) and run a standard simulation for a premade BM hunter. Don't think the APL is good, but it should be "good enough" to tell you what is the proportion of damage Cobra shot takes. You could even remove cobra shot from the APL to see what would be the difference.

Also, while I agree WoW can be a bit difficult for players that unlike us have spent years with the game, I think if you let her figure her hunter out while leveling, and keeping her focused on her abilities and damage output, by the time she hits 110, she will be just fine. I think.

[ZealousBlade]

Purposely teaching someone without one of their spells, just for the sake of simplicity, seems like a terrible idea to me. Zero room for learning.

[Sartuk]

I'll disagree a bit. I think teaching her the idea of BM initially without Cobra Shot makes sense. I've played MMOs before with people who truly, truly never gamed before...and it's rough, even after they get to max level. They are often a degree of bad at the game that is very hard for people who frequent forums and have played games for years to understand.

Yes, not using Cobra Shot would be absurdly sub-optimal. But get her used to pressing the buttons that BM really requires first. Some people pick up games quicker than others, and maybe by the time she's 110 the implementation of Cobra Shot into her "rotation" will be easy as pie. But if she's like a couple gaming newbies I've had the pleasure of playing with before, it might very well be a little too much initially. Zero room for learning is absolutely false. I would obviously have her use Cobra Shot as she's leveling up; she'll know about the spell. She'll probably ask why she's not using it anymore in a dungeon. And you can tell her that it's a good spell but it has certain parameters regarding its use, and once she feels comfortable you can explain those to her. That's a lot of room for learning.

I think some of the people here are REALLY underestimating how bad some people can be at games if they have zero history with them.

[Stangerlift]

I'll disagree a bit. I think teaching her the idea of BM initially without Cobra Shot makes sense. I've played MMOs before with people who truly, truly never gamed before...and it's rough, even after they get to max level. They are often a degree of bad at the game that is very hard for people who frequent forums and have played games for years to understand.

Yes, not using Cobra Shot would be absurdly sub-optimal. But get her used to pressing the buttons that BM really requires first. Some people pick up games quicker than others, and maybe by the time she's 110 the implementation of Cobra Shot into her "rotation" will be easy as pie. But if she's like a couple gaming newbies I've had the pleasure of playing with before, it might very well be a little too much initially. Zero room for learning is absolutely false. I would obviously have her use Cobra Shot as she's leveling up; she'll know about the spell. She'll probably ask why she's not using it anymore in a dungeon. And you can tell her that it's a good spell but it has certain parameters regarding its use, and once she feels comfortable you can explain those to her. That's a lot of room for learning.

I think some of the people here are REALLY underestimating how bad some people can be at games if they have zero history with them.

Sure, there's nothing wrong with being very new and having difficulty performing on their spec. Players are free to learn and play however they want. I do think it is wrong to try and bring them to any form of time invested raid content with non-friends. Playing without a key ability is like choosing no talents and then expecting to be able to play at any real level (See Demon Hunter forums currently).

[Fakiegeff]

Maybe im completely out of practice with BM but it seems too chaotic to me, several abilities with different cooldowns that dont line up, cooldowns randomly refreshing on procs, having to perhaps use cobra but not always. MM in comparison seems way simpler and less complicated: hit sidewinders! use marked or aimed! do nothing untill sidewinders again except barrage! nice and orderly with nothing coming out of nowhere that you have to react to or be on constant lookout for, might be easier for a new player.

[Sartuk]

Sure, there's nothing wrong with being very new and having difficulty performing on their spec. Players are free to learn and play however they want. I do think it is wrong to try and bring them to any form of time invested raid content with non-friends. Playing without a key ability is like choosing no talents and then expecting to be able to play at any real level (See Demon Hunter forums currently).

I don't disagree. I'd hope they're playing with friends only or LFR. If they're not, I think it'll be a problem that corrects itself pretty quickly when people see how poor her DPS will end up being (and, if she's that new to gaming in general, DPS will be her least major issue; she'll be failing mechanics and dying to avoidable stuff a lot).

Maybe im completely out of practice with BM but it seems too chaotic to me, several abilities with different cooldowns that dont line up, cooldowns randomly refreshing on procs, having to perhaps use cobra but not always. MM in comparison seems way simpler and less complicated: hit sidewinders! use marked or aimed! do nothing untill sidewinders again except barrage! nice and orderly with nothing coming out of nowhere that you have to react to or be on constant lookout for, might be easier for a new player.

I don't want to be a jackass, but this has got to be a troll post, right?

[Azortharion]

I don't know if you missed the part where I removed Stampede from the sim and BM was still well ahead of whether that piece of information didn't quite support your narrative.

[Fakiegeff]

I don't want to be a jackass, but this has got to be a troll post, right?

afraid not, ive been MM for a long time and i can sleep through the rotation because its formulaic except using barrage when its up, but when i tried BM on some target dummies when the patch hit it felt weird using a priority system since things dont line up and cooldowns change, if you intend on doing maximum dps.

If there is a rotation that will present itself and i just need to go do some dungeons and feel it out, then forget everything i said!

[Azortharion]

Also, your "AoE" setup for BM is using Crows instead of Volley if the talent numbers are to be believed.

[Deleted]

Thank you Effihunter for your sims, it's really helpful! I'm planning to go main SV / off BM and your work tends to prove that I'll have a spot in raids and in M+ dungeons, although I understand that MM would be better. I just can't stand its gameplay for the moment, I'll just pass and wait for the moment.

[Azortharion]

Here's the sim I am talking about with all cooldowns above 1 minute removed (YES, Stampede too)



Here's the full profile/source: http://pastebin.com/ewFH2cfH

[Sartuk]

afraid not, ive been MM for a long time and i can sleep through the rotation because its formulaic except using barrage when its up, but when i tried BM on some target dummies when the patch hit it felt weird using a priority system since things dont line up and cooldowns change, if you intend on doing maximum dps.

If there is a rotation that will present itself and i just need to go do some dungeons and feel it out, then forget everything i said!

BM is a priority system for sure, but it's a very, very simple one. There's not much complexity, and only a few very minor things to remember (don't use Dire Beasts if you only have a couple seconds left on BW, don't BW if you JUST used KC, etc.). In practice, these are all really simple things. It's not hard to prevent yourself from focus starving yourself with Cobra, and it's not hard to not focus cap yourself. If you can manage those two things and even just pop BW and AotW, you're going to be mostly fine. There's a lot of room for error, and minor errors aren't going to butcher your DPS. There's room to distinguish a good or great BM hunter from a poor one of course, but the skill floor is pretty high, and the ceiling isn't leaps and bounds above the floor.

MM is a bit different. SW usage is huge, and you can absolutely use it wrong and really hurt your DPS. Using Aimed Shot at inopportune times can focus starve you before you know it. Aiming Sidewinders in an actual raid situation can matter with regards to AoE. The fact that it's not as mobile as BM makes it bit more difficult as well. There's more to it than that, but it's absolutely a lot easier to do bad things in the MM rotation than the BM one.

That said, I think the absolute ease of BM is a little overstated (pet management matters, and there are certainly ways to use the priority system more intelligently to do better) and the "difficulty" of MM is a little overstated too (it's not that hard or anything). But there's a gap for sure. BM is a more simple system.

[Zanez]

I'm having difficulty with deciding which spec I should maining in terms of MM/BM.(this is coming from the perspective/need of a top 400 guild member)

From my understanding and in my own opinion, MM seems a better choice in a raid environment, whilst going the 13traits in BM for mythic+

our other hunter, and raid leader are pretty set on 'bm being stronger at 26 traits in mythic' so we should in order to get the best performance in mythic and not heroic, go full out on BM.

I'm trying to argue that MM is looking stronger, however its quite difficult for me to go no because xyz, and so i tend to rely on azor etc. Is there any indication that BM will beat MM (in general/majority of fights) at like 2-3 weeks into mythic raiding and beyond?

[Effinhunter]

I'm having difficulty with deciding which spec I should maining in terms of MM/BM.(this is coming from the perspective/need of a top 400 guild member)

From my understanding and in my own opinion, MM seems a better choice in a raid environment, whilst going the 13traits in BM for mythic+

our other hunter, and raid leader are pretty set on 'bm being stronger at 26 traits in mythic' so we should in order to get the best performance in mythic and not heroic, go full out on BM.

I'm trying to argue that MM is looking stronger, however its quite difficult for me to go no because xyz, and so i tend to rely on azor etc. Is there any indication that BM will beat MM (in general/majority of fights) at like 2-3 weeks into mythic raiding and beyond?

The AoE fights we have in this instance do not really line up with BM, but BM has some pretty strong legendaries that could potentially mask its AoE flaws. If your raid leader is playing a long game and is intentionally gimping the hunters for 2-3 weeks in EN and banking on each hunter getting a good legendary and not a useless one, this seems like an odd roll of the dice. That being said, the situation at raid week 2-3 is certainly different than week 1 for artifact considerations.

I personally wouldn't recommend it, but the data is certainly available in the first post for your raid leader to check whether this seems like the right dps strategy. One possibility could be for the hunters in your guild to stay at 13 BM traits, which should be fine for doing any heroic or level 1 mythic dungeon throughout the next 3 weeks and just accumulate artifact points until you get your legendary drops. Right before EN hits, depending on what you've collected, maybe choose where you want the rest then?

I don't know. I'm humoring the line of thought, and if your raider leader is forcing you into BM, I can see your predicament. But no, I'm not recommending it. BM may be extremely good during farm, especially with Stampede and a raid fully decked out in Mythic. As boss fights get shorter, BM's initial burst will be impressive in logs as the fight length gets shorter and shorter, but for progression? I would say no.

- - - Updated - - -

P.S. I'm rerunning a few sims like enchants and I'll post the results afterwards, but unless people have specific things they need simmed, I'm probably not going to sim too much more before the expansion hits

[Zanez]

The AoE fights we have in this instance do not really line up with BM, but BM has some pretty strong legendaries that could potentially mask its AoE flaws. If your raid leader is playing a long game and is intentionally gimping the hunters for 2-3 weeks in EN and banking on each hunter getting a good legendary and not a useless one, this seems like an odd roll of the dice. That being said, the situation at raid week 2-3 is certainly different than week 1 for artifact considerations.

I personally wouldn't recommend it, but the data is certainly available in the first post for your raid leader to check whether this seems like the right dps strategy. One possibility could be for the hunters in your guild to stay at 13 BM traits, which should be fine for doing any heroic or level 1 mythic dungeon throughout the next 3 weeks and just accumulate artifact points until you get your legendary drops. Right before EN hits, depending on what you've collected, maybe choose where you want the rest then?

I don't know. I'm humoring the line of thought, and if your raider leader is forcing you into BM, I can see your predicament. But no, I'm not recommending it. BM may be extremely good during farm, especially with Stampede and a raid fully decked out in Mythic. As boss fights get shorter, BM's initial burst will be impressive in logs as the fight length gets shorter and shorter, but for progression? I would say no.

- - - Updated - - -

P.S. I'm rerunning a few sims like enchants and I'll post the results afterwards, but unless people have specific things they need simmed, I'm probably not going to sim too much more before the expansion hits

Brilliant thanks for the reply, its along the lines of what I was trying to say but im a bit crap at that. Will bring it up for discussion

[Effinhunter]

Simcraft has been updated with some of the magic dealing enchants like Satyr.

BM Enchants Single Target, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


BM Enchants Three Target, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


MM Enchants Single, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


MM Enchants Three Target, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source



SV Enchants Single, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


SV Enchants Three Target, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source

[Deleted]

Is Fury of the Eagle still castable by moving? I thought it was, guildy complained that it wasn't again. I'm confused...

[Effinhunter]

To those curious about comprehensive gear sims, I'll be starting those up again after expansion launches as wowhead updates properly. It's a waste of time to do them right now.

- - - Updated - - -

Edit: I apparently lied about not running anymore sims. I had a request, so I'll be rerunning legendaries with an 895 baseline gearset so the legendary bonuses are more easily visible.

- - - Updated - - -

OK, so this is a bit of an exotic request and deserves a bit of explanation. The following uses an 895 gear/925 artifact profile and various legendaries for each set. The 895 forced item level for dungeon gear means that when we equip a legendary, we can see the bonus better. Single target talents, even though we're testing AoE situations. I'm providing all of the source and bat files in case you want to try different talent and artifact trait combinations with these profiles.

Batch script

BM Single Target Legendaries, 895 ilvl gear/925 ilvl artifact, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


BM Three Target Legendaries, 895 ilvl gear/925 ilvl artifact, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


BM Six Target Legendaries, 895 ilvl gear/925 ilvl artifact, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source



MM Single Target Legendaries, 895 ilvl gear/925 ilvl artifact, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


MM Three Target Legendaries, 895 ilvl gear/925 ilvl artifact, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


MM Six Target Legendaries, 895 ilvl gear/925 ilvl artifact, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source



SV Single Target Legendaries, 895 ilvl gear/925 ilvl artifact, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


SV Three Target Legendaries, 895 ilvl gear/925 ilvl artifact, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


SV Six Target Legendaries, 895 ilvl gear/925 ilvl artifact, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


Obviously, this is just showing relative importance of upgrades, not the actual dps increases you are going to see for these on your character. Sim these with your gear levels, once you get into legion. I believe AMR's sim also has a batch option for legendary selection as well, if you need something personalized and easy for simming.

[Deleted]

Question: I checked the APL used for all 3 MM sims, But I can't see where you used bursting shot in the APL.

What's the point of simming the magnetized blasting caps launcher if you don't use the spell ?

[Azortharion]

What's the point of not using multi-target talents in general? Piercing Shot for MM, Blink Strikes/Volley/anything not Killer Cobra for BM on 6 targets (considering BM doesn't even use Kill Command on 6 targets, so it is a 100% wasted talent).