Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Jayeazy]

Found a small edit to the trueshot cooldown line to bring out the real value of the legendary boots:

actions.cooldowns+=/variable,name=trueshot_cooldown,op=set,value=time,if=time>15&cooldown.trueshot.up&variable.trueshot_cooldown=0
actions.cooldowns+=/trueshot,if=time<=15|buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die>=(variable.trueshot_cooldown+duration)|buff.bullseye.react>25|target.time_to_die<16

Using the first calculated effective cooldown of trueshot to judge if we can use it again without losing a sub 20% trueshot works better than using the base cooldown. It's not always going to be perfect but it's closer and gets the extra trueshot usages to trigger properly.



Just wish I had them...

[Akainakali]

A quick google didn't turn up anything, but has any modeling been done on the bonuses from the various 2 piece sets and how much those are likely to be worth?

[Effinhunter]

A quick google didn't turn up anything, but has any modeling been done on the bonuses from the various 2 piece sets and how much those are likely to be worth?

There was a big breakdown of these before release of Karazhan, but it's buried deep within this thread, I think. I really should build a breakdown of more recent sets from Kara and incorporate the changes to the various specs with that. I've been a bit busy out of game, and I apologize for the tardiness in updates here.

any ideas when simcraft will be update with 910 ilvl legendaries?

To the person who asked this, Simcraft should be doing that. If it isn't automatically plugging in 910 ilevel, simply set this manually by yourself. For instance:

feet=ullrs_feather_snowshoes,id=137033,ilevel=910

The above will equip the MM boots with an ilevel of 910

[Effinhunter]

So, here's a change that I'm working on that alters the way I've done breakdowns in the past. In the previous two expansions, I've provided breakdowns of all raid-level gear for each slot. However, the gear options in this expansion have exploded with world quests, mythic+, and raids along with the titanforging system--making such breakdowns impractical, cumbersome, and overwhelming for others. I'm thinking of instead keeping the following types of breakdowns per slot. There will be redundancies because gear is lumped into similar stat budget groups (e.g., legs == chest == helm, gloves == boots == shoulders, etc.), but having done this long enough, I know people will ask the obvious questions if I don't put up each slot.

I'm trying to put enough ilvl increases to make the increase trends and the placement of sockets in the list more obvious. For that reason, low/medium gear budget slots are shown with up to +35 ilvl increases, while high gear budget slots are shown with up to +15 ilvl increases.

MM Neck Upgrades: Simcraft Source


MM Gloves Upgrades: Simcraft Source


MM Chest Upgrades: Simcraft Source



I do plan on keeping a full trinket breakdown, but I'm still working on how best to display this--or whether I need to just work on an automated method to produce a searchable database that allows for trinket comparisons. I'm still thinking on that one.

I'm still running all the MM gear breakdowns and then I'll move on to BM and SV. Then I'm hoping to do set breakdowns for all of the newer gear. No Nighthold stuff yet.

Edit: P.S. All sims are ran at 50k iterations, 300s (5m) +/- 20%

- - - Updated - - -

First post should be updated with MM slot direct upgrade sims

[Deleted]

I honestly didnt understand a single thing f what you said youre going to do effin. obviously same stats, but higher ilvl on stuff will be better? Im assuming I completely misunderstood

[Effinhunter]

Yeah, I'll be doing another sim for the combinations of gear (e.g. High Mastery/Low Haste) to show the combinations and how they diff. These are just showing direct upgrades first. From the kinds of questions I get most frequently, people want a cheat sheet for quick loot master decisions.

[eathdemon]

I know things arent set in stone yet on the ptr, but do we have a sense on wether we will be using sw or as, and if it is as does that mean we want to start stacking crit?

[Effinhunter]

I've removed all 7.1 sims and am working on 7.1.5 sims. I had planned not to bump this thread at all and just keep the sims updated for myself, but the tone and frequency of the BM vs MM arguments have forced my hand a bit.

The tier bonuses for MM are unusually good. They are not quite T18 4 set good, but it's in the same stratosphere. I can currently tweak 7.1.5 gear profiles, relics, talents, etc. and get BM and MM within 20k without tier on ST, and BM still does really well in 3 target and 6 target sims (even with tier). But unless something is majorly wrong with BM's implementation in Simcraft right now, the true shot reductions are making MM unbeatable in sims (in comparisons with the other specs) and the obvious choice, again, for Nighthold. Before you start attacking me as anti-BM, understand that I have over 40 traits invested in both MM and BM.

If you want BM to be tweaked to be inline with MM, you would need to orchestrate a pretty concentrated campaign at Blizzard via Twitter and official forums / other channels. Because historically, this kind of imbalance in tier sets for hunters is never corrected at this point in a PTR/pre-content release cycle. I certainly can't remember one.

Edit: P.S., still working on sims. Not final. Work in progress.

[GreenWins]

Thanks for keeping us updated with information. I read this thread pretty often and was wondering if you actually quit. It's good for the hunter community to have multiple sources of information. So keep up the good work.

[Deleted]

The tier bonuses for MM are unusually good.

I'm glad, you're getting the same kind of numbers as me. I've been thinking there was something wrong with SimC, as they're so far out of line compared to other classes.

[Khrux]

Thanks for the work put in here, really paints a picture of how dumb the set bonuses are currently. (both good and bad)

[Maxie]

I assume the importance of the legendary boots skyrockets with the 4p tier?

[Thursley]

Since it looks like Sidewinders may no longer be the default pick in the standard situation, I'm curious about the legendary belt as a fringe case for that row of talents. As someone with no other DPS-increasing legendaries, on a single target fight I'd be giving up the belt's bonus by taking Trick Shot, so the question becomes is Sidewinders with the belt better than Trick Shot without legendaries.

[Turtel]

It's interesting that the value of haste is low in 7.1.5 even before including the tier bonus/class trinket/legendary boots. Once all those are included, Trueshot uptime will be much higher (almost double), making haste drop even further down, and pushing crit further up, perhaps even above mastery.

Seeing as Zevrim's Hunger is completely loaded with crit/mastery and will now scale exponentially with item level, and with it's 940 ilvl, it may become slightly more competitive, despite having a fairly lackluster effect.

Since it looks like Sidewinders may no longer be the default pick in the standard situation, I'm curious about the legendary belt as a fringe case for that row of talents. As someone with no other DPS-increasing legendaries, on a single target fight I'd be giving up the belt's bonus by taking Trick Shot, so the question becomes is Sidewinders with the belt better than Trick Shot without legendaries.

The belt will probably give a ~3.5% (which includes the extra stats, since the effect itself is only about a 2.5%) boost to the Sidewinders builds on single target. Right now the single target sim on the original page is showing that the best Trick Shot build is about 3.7% more DPS than the best Sidewinders build. So if you have the legendary belt, Sidewinders builds seem to remain fairly competitive, but Trick Shot still pulls ahead slightly; at least with the current APL (which is probably better optimised for Sidewinders given that it's what everyone would have been using so far).

[Effinhunter]

I assume the importance of the legendary boots skyrockets with the 4p tier?

Here is a bit better breakdown of boots power. I've added a bit more options for both BM and MM to the tier breakdown too.

New MM tier breakdowns with legendaries


New BM tier breakdowns with legendaries and breaking up 4 set


Next step will probably be running talent breakdowns with tier equipped. See if I can't eek out a bit more.

[Dphotog]

Here is a bit better breakdown of boots power. I've added a bit more options for both BM and MM to the tier breakdown too.

New MM tier breakdowns with legendaries


New BM tier breakdowns with legendaries and breaking up 4 set


Next step will probably be running talent breakdowns with tier equipped. See if I can't eek out a bit more.

is the Belt/boots simed at 940? or 910. Also is Gyro being simmed at 940 while the boots 910? or is this being simmed all across as 910.

[BendakWoW]

Just a FYI, Titanstrike has bugged stats in sim craft 715-01. It has way more crit and mastery than it should have (check the gear in the results and you'll see it). I had to manually adjust stats to compensate.

[Khrux]

This guy on reddit did a breakdown of power rankings for all set and it looks like MM is just completely broken compared to both other hunter sets and every other set in the game. This one definitely needs a nerf and I think realistically we should all expect one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...5e&sh=0117eac5

Spec	0P to 2P	2P to 4P	0P to 4P
MM Hunter	4.40%	12.60%	17.50%
BM Hunter	1.20%	2.10%	3.40%
SV Hunter	2.10%	3.90%	6.10%

His comment on MM set:
MM Hunter - MM Hunter wins the set bonus lottery by a wide margin. Each trueshot damage window is increased by 50%+ thanks to half-off aimed shots with 4P. This is about an extra 5M damage every ~100 seconds (CDR from 2P), or 50K DPS increase, even without bloodlust.

[Deleted]

Why not simming each legendary one by one?
Doesn't seem right to mix them. And there's no 895tier with no legendary sim as a reference to see the impacts.

And how is it possible that no tier sims with either boots, bootslegs or beltboots give the same results? We should see at least a dps increase from the higher stats coming from the belt or the legs, shouldn't we?

Which relics do you use for the test? It could make a big difference if you use trueshot relics or not...

[Effinhunter]

Why not simming each legendary one by one?
Doesn't seem right to mix them. And there's no 895tier with no legendary sim as a reference to see the impacts.

P.S., still working on sims. Not final. Work in progress.

And how is it possible that no tier sims with either boots, bootslegs or beltboots give the same results? We should see at least a dps increase from the higher stats coming from the belt or the legs, shouldn't we?

Which relics do you use for the test? It could make a big difference if you use trueshot relics or not...

Some of the items are poorly itemized for MM, especially. Mastery alone can overcome some of the meager gains from bonuses. These are hardly the most optimal gear selections. Additionally, as always, the Simcraft Source is provided. I am not using QS relics and am instead using something that always provides single target damage for the profiles. For BM, these are Pack Leader and Jaws of Thunder. For MM, those are Marked for Death. Again, you can find these in the Simcraft Source. QS is useful for pushing TS to 30s CD with tier bonuses, and along with Convergence of Fates, will make TS uptime insane. However, these current sims are just what I'm looking at right now. It's unreasonable to expect all information all at once. Sims take time, and I have limited time. Your suggestions are hardly my priority. Feel free to do your own sims.