[WINDWALKER] 7.X Discussion thread

[PizzaSHARK]

Energizing Elixir gives 5 chi and 100 energy every 60s (ideally), while Power Strikes gives 4 chi every 60s (again, ideally). So considering optimal usage of PS, you could waste 1 chi and gain 0 energy on EE and they would be even over a 60s period. And that's bad EE usage. If you use it to gain 5 chi at any point within 15s after it comes back off cooldown, it's giving you more chi than PS, and any energy gain on top of that is just a bonus. You're not supposed to wait until you're out of resources, but instead you use it so that you DO NOT run out of resources any time soon.

Simply put - Energizing Elixir gives so much more than PS that you don't need to use it to its maximum effect to gain more from it than from PS. You can afford to use it at higher energy to gain a lot of chi, or at low energy to gain slightly less chi and it'll still be the strongest option. Additionally, Energizing Elixir has the flexibility of allowing for burst in AOE or even ST.

Gotcha. So it's okay to use EE when it's not strictly the "best" time to use it and it's still good.

So what's a typical opening then? Jab, BoK, Jab again, then FoF into the usual rotation? Is it better to use Strike of Windlord or the shoryuken once FoF+RSK are on cooldown? I can usually fit both of those (and often a Chi Wave) into the first duration of spirits, so does it matter which one gets used first as long as they both get used during spirits?

[Deleted]

Gotcha. So it's okay to use EE when it's not strictly the "best" time to use it and it's still good.

So what's a typical opening then? Jab, BoK, Jab again, then FoF into the usual rotation? Is it better to use Strike of Windlord or the shoryuken once FoF+RSK are on cooldown? I can usually fit both of those (and often a Chi Wave) into the first duration of spirits, so does it matter which one gets used first as long as they both get used during spirits?

If you're using WDP, I believe the opener is: Chi Wave right before pull > FSK to boss > Jab > SEF > SotW > EE > FoF > RSK > WDP > standard priority. It's been over a month since I've used it, though, as I use Serenity for everything (which is far better in almost every situation if you can put the time into learning how to use it), so I can't say with full certainty that the above is optimal.

[Babylonius]

Hey bab, can you run another sim on trinkets at 895 (Karazhan included). AMR points to tirathon's being BIS

Once they're implemented in SimC and we're a little closer to release, of course I will.

[PizzaSHARK]

If you're using WDP, I believe the opener is: Chi Wave right before pull > FSK to boss > Jab > SEF > SotW > EE > FoF > RSK > WDP > standard priority. It's been over a month since I've used it, though, as I use Serenity for everything (which is far better in almost every situation if you can put the time into learning how to use it), so I can't say with full certainty that the above is optimal.

Got it. Thanks! No way I'm giving up shoryuken, though. I don't care if it's less DPS, it's by far cooler and being able to pretend I'm Ryu is very important. I'm still trying to find a decent xmog that will make me look like Ryu or Ken, but it's pretty tough.

[isRobin]

Once they're implemented in SimC and we're a little closer to release, of course I will.

Thanks boo

[Extremities]

It isn't a smooth rotation, we have one of the highest downtimes in the game without haste
And I do 1m burst without the belt, a wod agi pot, and wdp. Depending on your raids gear you should be top 3 no matter what end tier talent you take. The only exception is fights that only last 2 minutes or so because other classes burst not evening out yet.

1m+ on a boss without any of those? Yeah, I'd like to see that. I find that hard to believe. I could see that on packs of mobs during trash but on a boss, single target? 1m+? no sorry but I don't think so.

Our rotation isn't nearly as complex as a Fire mage. And I agree we have a lot of downtime but that doesn't make our rotation "not smooth". Our rotation is really easy, but the downside is that it has downtime, there's no denying that. The important part of our rotation is making sure our stacking buff is constantly up. Our rotation is more so about managing stacking duration buffs than anything which plays a big role in our dps.

[lonely zergling]

Is it worth using a second neck with the ae arrow damage enchant for trash in mythic+? Or is Satyr the way to go in all situations.

[Xahz]

Simply put - Energizing Elixir gives so much more than PS that you don't need to use it to its maximum effect to gain more from it than from PS. You can afford to use it at higher energy to gain a lot of chi, or at low energy to gain slightly less chi and it'll still be the strongest option. Additionally, Energizing Elixir has the flexibility of allowing for burst in AOE or even ST.

This is a very misleading comment; PS and EE are roughly equal with the advantage being given to EE based mostly on flexibility and energy generation. Simcraft shows the difference between PS and EE as less than 1.3% in favor or EE (about 5000dps in my case), and that's with perfect simulator usage. To get into the numbers, over the course of a 300 second fight EE generated 357 energy and 22 Chi, which means an average of ~66 energy per use, and 4.12 Chi per use (simcraft averages). Which makes sense, if you think about situations where you would actually need to use EE (1 Chi, <50 energy and FoF coming off cooldown, 2 Chi <50 energy and SotWL coming off cooldown, or just being completely out of Chi and low on energy would be in line with those averages). For comparison, PS generated ~20 Chi in that same timeframe. So we can see that the Chi generation is very similar, with the big outlier being the extra energy generated from EE. But the question is, where is that energy going? Simcraft shows about 3.3 extra Tiger Palms on the side of EE and 1 extra Chi generated from Serenity, however the energy regen overflow is FAR higher - 497.15 with EE vs 309.55 with PS. So other than generating a few extra Tiger Palms, a lot of that energy is wasted. Once again, this makes sense since when you use EE, you are going to be using your Chi dumpers for the following handful of GCDs, meaning any energy generated during that time period is wasted. The amount of energy you get from EE is misleading, since if it simply gave you 5 Chi you would actually regenerate most of that energy anyways while you are spending Chi, which is what the simulations show.

The problem with EE is that in order to get 5 Chi out of it, you have to dump all your Chi, which means either using EE suboptimally for less Chi or delaying it. So the "ideal" situation where you gain 100 energy and 5 Chi is not worth mentioning at all to make since it is impossible for that situation to ever occur. In practice, you will generate an average of 4 Chi and an average of about 20-30 energy if you consider energy regen overflow. Then you have the benefits of having those resources on demand as opposed to at specific intervals vs. the convenience of not having another cooldown to worry about and potentially misuse. So it is definitely the superior talent choice if you can use it well, but by a small margin. Your comment seriously exaggerated the difference between the two.

[Densalo]

This is a very misleading comment; PS and EE are roughly equal with the advantage being given to EE based mostly on flexibility and energy generation. Simcraft shows the difference between PS and EE as less than 1.3% in favor or EE (about 5000dps in my case), and that's with perfect simulator usage. To get into the numbers, over the course of a 300 second fight EE generated 357 energy and 22 Chi, which means an average of ~66 energy per use, and 4.12 Chi per use (simcraft averages). Which makes sense, if you think about situations where you would actually need to use EE (1 Chi, <50 energy and FoF coming off cooldown, 2 Chi <50 energy and SotWL coming off cooldown, or just being completely out of Chi and low on energy would be in line with those averages). For comparison, PS generated ~20 Chi in that same timeframe. So we can see that the Chi generation is very similar, with the big outlier being the extra energy generated from EE. But the question is, where is that energy going? Simcraft shows about 3.3 extra Tiger Palms on the side of EE and 1 extra Chi generated from Serenity, however the energy regen overflow is FAR higher - 497.15 with EE vs 309.55 with PS. So other than generating a few extra Tiger Palms, a lot of that energy is wasted. Once again, this makes sense since when you use EE, you are going to be using your Chi dumpers for the following handful of GCDs, meaning any energy generated during that time period is wasted. The amount of energy you get from EE is misleading, since if it simply gave you 5 Chi you would actually regenerate most of that energy anyways while you are spending Chi, which is what the simulations show.

The problem with EE is that in order to get 5 Chi out of it, you have to dump all your Chi, which means either using EE suboptimally for less Chi or delaying it. So the "ideal" situation where you gain 100 energy and 5 Chi is not worth mentioning at all to make since it is impossible for that situation to ever occur. In practice, you will generate an average of 4 Chi and an average of about 20-30 energy if you consider energy regen overflow. Then you have the benefits of having those resources on demand as opposed to at specific intervals vs. the convenience of not having another cooldown to worry about and potentially misuse. So it is definitely the superior talent choice if you can use it well, but by a small margin. Your comment seriously exaggerated the difference between the two.

It also allows for more on-demand resources during your serenity window which is important.

[Deleted]

This is a very misleading comment // Your comment seriously exaggerated the difference between the two.

I said there's a significant difference, and 1.3% in a patchwerk fight along with being far superior in AOE situations and also being flexible counts as significant to me.

Additionally, it seems you misunderstood what I meant - I meant that it is a fact that EE gives a lot more than PS when talking in absolutes; NOT that you gain far more in practical usage from EE. My point was that you'll never be able to achieve that value, so it's not worth even trying. You disagreed with me only to expand upon the very point I was making.

[Deleted]

It also allows for more on-demand resources during your serenity window which is important.

More on-demand resources during serenity? Surely it's weaker with serenity than SEF, owing to not needing chi during Serenity? Or did I misunderstand you here? On-demand resources are always a plus, though, tbh.

[Xahz]

I said there's a significant difference, and 1.3% in a patchwerk fight along with being far superior in AOE situations and also being flexible counts as significant to me.

Additionally, it seems you misunderstood what I meant - I meant that it is a fact that EE gives a lot more than PS when talking in absolutes; NOT that you gain far more in practical usage from EE. My point was that you'll never be able to achieve that value, so it's not worth even trying. You disagreed with me only to expand upon the very point I was making.

But it isn't a 1.3% difference; it's 1.3% on a simulator that knows exactly when to use it to maximize its effectiveness. For anyone who isn't a machine it's going to generate an almost identical amount of Chi as PS with the bonus of a small amount of usable energy. We see similar results in 2-3 target cleave fights. For AoE burst it is certainly superior, but there aren't a tremendous amount of situations that require that.

I don't see the point in discussing "absolutes", especially considering that getting 5Chi/100Energy from EB is a situation that will literally never happen. I don't agree that the difference is significant. I've played extensively with both in mythic+ and up to mythic cenarius and I pretty much never see any difference in numbers outside of enormous mythic+ pulls.

[Deleted]

I don't see the point in discussing "absolutes"

I'm sorry, but I don't even know what you're arguing now. You're making good points, but I don't see where the disagreement comes in. I am saying the exact same thing that you are (Except the energy saved from PS - it was early morning and it slipped my mind), so I really don't understand why you're contesting a point that we both agree isn't relevant because the scenario is impossible to achieve. There always has to be a maximum value when comparing options, and I happened to use the maximum value shown on the ability to show how much leeway there is for EE to still be an effective option. 5chi/100 energy will never happen, and I wasn't trying to "discuss absolutes" as I have already explained (though you seem to have ignored that part) - I'm just not going to calculate the exactly amount of energy/chi that would be the theoretical maximum to explain a simple point to someone who asked how to use an ability.

And you not agreeing that a slight ST increase, moderate AOE increase, and flexibility is significant is just a matter of opinion regarding what classifies as significant and is hardly relevant. All of this is just nitpicking and so far from the initial point. I never once said that EE was the far superior option, nor did I say that 5chi/100 energy was possible, so I don't see the point in any of this in the context of an argument. You made a fine post that built upon what I said without disagreeing with anything I actually said despite what you seem to think, so let's leave it at that.

[Juliansfist]

EE offers a burst advantage whilst PS offers reliability and consistency. Personally I think the consistency of PS is superior even though it offers less chi/minute. Use EE and find those chi droughts which I find pretty detrimental. Doing a dungeon with EE it feels like for one pack out of three you feel 100% and without 75% for the other two. With PS I feel like 95% for every pack.

[ErothTV]

This is a very misleading comment; PS and EE are roughly equal with the advantage being given to EE based mostly on flexibility and energy generation. Simcraft shows the difference between PS and EE as less than 1.3% in favor or EE (about 5000dps in my case), and that's with perfect simulator usage. To get into the numbers, over the course of a 300 second fight EE generated 357 energy and 22 Chi, which means an average of ~66 energy per use, and 4.12 Chi per use (simcraft averages). Which makes sense, if you think about situations where you would actually need to use EE (1 Chi, <50 energy and FoF coming off cooldown, 2 Chi <50 energy and SotWL coming off cooldown, or just being completely out of Chi and low on energy would be in line with those averages). For comparison, PS generated ~20 Chi in that same timeframe. So we can see that the Chi generation is very similar, with the big outlier being the extra energy generated from EE. But the question is, where is that energy going? Simcraft shows about 3.3 extra Tiger Palms on the side of EE and 1 extra Chi generated from Serenity, however the energy regen overflow is FAR higher - 497.15 with EE vs 309.55 with PS. So other than generating a few extra Tiger Palms, a lot of that energy is wasted. Once again, this makes sense since when you use EE, you are going to be using your Chi dumpers for the following handful of GCDs, meaning any energy generated during that time period is wasted. The amount of energy you get from EE is misleading, since if it simply gave you 5 Chi you would actually regenerate most of that energy anyways while you are spending Chi, which is what the simulations show.

The problem with EE is that in order to get 5 Chi out of it, you have to dump all your Chi, which means either using EE suboptimally for less Chi or delaying it. So the "ideal" situation where you gain 100 energy and 5 Chi is not worth mentioning at all to make since it is impossible for that situation to ever occur. In practice, you will generate an average of 4 Chi and an average of about 20-30 energy if you consider energy regen overflow. Then you have the benefits of having those resources on demand as opposed to at specific intervals vs. the convenience of not having another cooldown to worry about and potentially misuse. So it is definitely the superior talent choice if you can use it well, but by a small margin. Your comment seriously exaggerated the difference between the two.

Great post bro

[Densalo]

More on-demand resources during serenity? Surely it's weaker with serenity than SEF, owing to not needing chi during Serenity? Or did I misunderstand you here? On-demand resources are always a plus, though, tbh.

Nope you didn't misunderstand me, though I did word it poorly. I recently made the switch to Serenity myself and am still pretty new to it. I'm actually really glad you said this since I'd misinterpreted the tooltip and thought that being "free" meant that it would not consume the chi, but I didn't realize you could pop it with 0 chi and be able to use chi spenders if that makes sense. I'd been saving EE for when Serenity was about to come off CD, so that I could continue my normal rotation and pop it going in to Serenity window, and as such, never noticed Serenity itself caused everything to be free from the start lol. Live and learn. I hope this helps someone else as well!

[LoKSET]

Well that's how Serenity used to work, so most WWs who've played in WoD already know that

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry for doublepost but just got Crosswinds and decided to give it a quick go at a dummy. Suddenly FoF is doing 10 hits per channel and doing huge damage. Anyone know what's up with that?

[Xahz]

I'm sorry, but I don't even know what you're arguing now. You're making good points, but I don't see where the disagreement comes in. I am saying the exact same thing that you are (Except the energy saved from PS - it was early morning and it slipped my mind), so I really don't understand why you're contesting a point that we both agree isn't relevant because the scenario is impossible to achieve. There always has to be a maximum value when comparing options, and I happened to use the maximum value shown on the ability to show how much leeway there is for EE to still be an effective option. 5chi/100 energy will never happen, and I wasn't trying to "discuss absolutes" as I have already explained (though you seem to have ignored that part) - I'm just not going to calculate the exactly amount of energy/chi that would be the theoretical maximum to explain a simple point to someone who asked how to use an ability.

And you not agreeing that a slight ST increase, moderate AOE increase, and flexibility is significant is just a matter of opinion regarding what classifies as significant and is hardly relevant. All of this is just nitpicking and so far from the initial point. I never once said that EE was the far superior option, nor did I say that 5chi/100 energy was possible, so I don't see the point in any of this in the context of an argument. You made a fine post that built upon what I said without disagreeing with anything I actually said despite what you seem to think, so let's leave it at that.

Why does everything have to be an argument? I was simply discussing the talent and how it might not play out to be nearly as powerful as it looks. If you don't think it is worth discussing, then feel free to stop posting on the topic.

Regardless, what classifies as "significant" is absolutely relevant since EE is an active talent. If the benefit is not large enough to compensate for the potential misuse, it might be valid to claim that PS is actually better in specific situations. That was the prevailing attitude regarding Serenity vs. WDP before more testing was done and all the various bugs with SEF were discovered. Juliansfist made a good point above that taking EE in Mythic+ can often lead to situations where you obliterate one pack of trash with EE+Serenity and then are resource starved on the next pack since everything is on cooldown. The writeup on WotW describes EE as "the best choice by far" and argues that "the reward is much higher", but I just haven't seen that type of payoff outside of AoE burst. I should note that I have the boot legendary, sephuz's secret and 2/3 strength of xuen, which could be impacting resource generation in favor of PS.

[LoKSET]

Sorry for doublepost but just got Crosswinds and decided to give it a quick go at a dummy. Suddenly FoF is doing 10 hits per channel and doing huge damage. Anyone know what's up with that?

I figured out what's wrong. My dummies are somehow duplicated - there are two on top of each other for all of them. Can anybody confirm this problem cause now I can't test ST damage at all damn. I think it happened after I switched the brewhouse to the Enlightenment class hall upgrade.

[Dakiri]

If you go to the middle level of the class hall (next to where the repair anvil is) there are a couple of isolated target dummies. There are other dummies nearby but they're far enough away that they don't take any cleave damage.