[7.2] Legion Holy Priest Discussion

[Djriff]

How is ToL "free mana"? If anything, it makes the trinket less effective, since it casts flash heal on previous target, delaying the mana return.

ToL is free mana because you don't have to heal the previous target. Paired with an SoL FH, means it's entirely free to heal 2 targets.

[anon5123]

How is ToL "free mana"? If anything, it makes the trinket less effective, since it casts flash heal on previous target, delaying the mana return.

It is not "free mana", but rather free healing.

You're right you are consistently refreshing the buff because you use a flash heal every 6 seconds throughout an entire encounter :^)

Uh...that's not how Spine works. It only refreshes if you heal the same target.

[Mazi]

It is not "free mana", but rather free healing.



Uh...that's not how Spine works. It only refreshes if you heal the same target.

That is how spine works, unfortunately.

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ToL is free mana because you don't have to heal the previous target. Paired with an SoL FH, means it's entirely free to heal 2 targets.

He's talking about how Spine (the trinket) interacts with ToL. It delays the mana proc.

[Melchey]

He's talking about how Spine (the trinket) interacts with ToL. It delays the mana proc.

Only if you're continually spamming FH in 6 second windows. Should've clarified what I meant for the other posters, but if you don't use FH for 6 seconds after casting it, with ToL you get two buffs of amalgam. Naturally due to how ToL works using FH a lot probably means you are overwriting one of them more often than not, but you're still getting an extra proc from ToL alone at the very least. If you actually spam FH every 6 seconds, then yes, the value goes down a little (very little, in fact) since you're still getting the normal proc from the original FH. The ToL interaction is a bonus, and kinda what makes the trinket stronger than normal for hpriest. Amalgam is only bad if you are continually Heal/FHing the same target repeatedly overwriting the buff without letting it drop. ToL doesn't make it weaker than normal.

[anon5123]

That is how spine works, unfortunately.

What? He's saying that just "using flash heal" refreshes the buff...yes, if you keep casting on the same target over and over, which Holy does not, when in a raid.

And even if we're talking about Trail of Light, it shouldn't effect the trinket buff that much unless you're constantly healing the same people.

Speaking of Trail of Light, I always see people saying that it's better than Enlightenment. I've always been running Enlightenment in raids and have had no problems with mana (promises+spine gives me a fuckton of mana) and no problems with HPS either.

What exactly is the theorycraft behind Trail of Light providing more healing than the extra mana from Enlightenment? I've always been iffy about Trail of Light in raids, since I'm not spamming FH all the time, and wouldn't the Trail portion be overheal most of the time? Outside of fights like Ursoc where the whole raid is constantly getting slammed.

[Mazi]

What? He's saying that just "using flash heal" refreshes the buff...yes, if you keep casting on the same target over and over, which Holy does not, when in a raid.

And even if we're talking about Trail of Light, it shouldn't effect the trinket buff that much unless you're constantly healing the same people.

Speaking of Trail of Light, I always see people saying that it's better than Enlightenment. I've always been running Enlightenment in raids and have had no problems with mana (promises+spine gives me a fuckton of mana) and no problems with HPS either.

What exactly is the theorycraft behind Trail of Light providing more healing than the extra mana from Enlightenment? I've always been iffy about Trail of Light in raids, since I'm not spamming FH all the time, and wouldn't the Trail portion be overheal most of the time? Outside of fights like Ursoc where the whole raid is constantly getting slammed.

If you're fine on mana then you don't need enlightenment. Also Trail is really strong with a lot of flash heal, what are you casting instead of flash?

[Melchey]

What? He's saying that just "using flash heal" refreshes the buff...yes, if you keep casting on the same target over and over, which Holy does not, when in a raid.

And even if we're talking about Trail of Light, it shouldn't effect the trinket buff that much unless you're constantly healing the same people.

Speaking of Trail of Light, I always see people saying that it's better than Enlightenment. I've always been running Enlightenment in raids and have had no problems with mana (promises+spine gives me a fuckton of mana) and no problems with HPS either.

What exactly is the theorycraft behind Trail of Light providing more healing than the extra mana from Enlightenment? I've always been iffy about Trail of Light in raids, since I'm not spamming FH all the time, and wouldn't the Trail portion be overheal most of the time? Outside of fights like Ursoc where the whole raid is constantly getting slammed.

If you bothered reading the comment from KaPe about how 'ToL devalues the trinket due to ToL' what anyone is talking about would be clear and you wouldn't look so foolish. But yes if you're spamming on the same (two w/ tol) target(s) the trinket is not good as has been said before.

[anon5123]

If you're fine on mana then you don't need enlightenment. Also Trail is really strong with a lot of flash heal, what are you casting instead of flash?

I never said I wasn't casting flash heal, I said I'm not casting it all the time.

If you bothered reading the comment from KaPe about how 'ToL devalues the trinket due to ToL' what anyone is talking about would be clear and you wouldn't look so foolish.

I did bother reading, which is why I pointed it out. Thanks for the insult.

[VigilantRose]

Speaking of Trail of Light, I always see people saying that it's better than Enlightenment. I've always been running Enlightenment in raids and have had no problems with mana (promises+spine gives me a fuckton of mana) and no problems with HPS either.

IIRC, normal mana regen is 44k/5 sec. Enlightenment is thus 6600 mp5. Flash Heal costs 30,800 so 40% of a Flash Heal is worth 12,320 mana. 12,320/6600*5=9.33. So if you're casting Flash Heal more than once every 9.33 sec, you're saving more mana from Trail of Light than you'd be regenerating from Enlightenment.

What exactly is the theorycraft behind Trail of Light providing more healing than the extra mana from Enlightenment? I've always been iffy about Trail of Light in raids, since I'm not spamming FH all the time, and wouldn't the Trail portion be overheal most of the time? Outside of fights like Ursoc where the whole raid is constantly getting slammed.

There's no reason to suspect that Flash Heal would involve more overhealing than anything else you'd be spending the mana on or that Trail of Light ramps up overhealing in any meaningful sense.

However, my suspicion is that Trail of Light will be less popular in raids post-7.1 because Binding Heal will become more efficient. So rather than Trail of Light + Surge of Light, Binding Heal + Enlightenment becomes more worthwhile. Trail of Light will still likely dominate in non-raid content since you have to cast Flash Heal anyway.

[anon5123]

IIRC, normal mana regen is 44k/5 sec. Enlightenment is thus 6600 mp5.

No, it's 4,400 because Enlightenment is 10%, not 15%.

There's no reason to suspect that Flash Heal would involve more overhealing than anything else you'd be spending the mana on or that Trail of Light ramps up overhealing in any meaningful sense.

I never said Flash Heal would be overhealing, I'm worried about Trail of Light overhealing.

[VigilantRose]

No, it's 4,400 because Enlightenment is 10%, not 15%.

I never said Flash Heal would be overhealing, I'm worried about Trail of Light overhealing.

The above obviously makes Flash of Light better in comparison to Enlightenment than I stated. In terms of Trail of Light overhealing, the only realistic way to check this would be to compare large numbers of logs from players who did and did not have Trail of Light for Flash Heal overhealing. However, I don't believe there are sufficient non-Flash of Light logs to accomplish this without severely biasing the sample.

However, since most Flash Heal casting tends to be consecutive rather than evenly spaced over time, there's no real reason to expect that receiving a Flash Heal and then receiving 40% of a Flash Heal 1.5 secs later would dramatically alter overhealing. Another way to consider this is that the upper bound on Trail of Light overhealing is probably somewhere in the vicinity of Echo of Light overhealing (since Flash Heal is the primary source of Echo of Light in most raids and anything that causes Trail of Light to overheal would also cause Echo of Light to overheal) - and even with that range, you still need to cast Flash Heal very infrequently for Trail of Light mana savings to not trump Enlightenment.

[Mazi]

No, it's 4,400 because Enlightenment is 10%, not 15%.



I never said Flash Heal would be overhealing, I'm worried about Trail of Light overhealing.

Differs fight to fight. Mythic Ilgynoth I played with and without ToL and found that my FH total healing stayed nearly the same when I dropped ToL. However I feel that if I did this on almost any other fight, there would be a dramatic drop in FH healing.

[grundlekuntz]

It seems like there are a lot of factors involved other than picking one talent over another, including your current stats (not just ilvl), playstyle, the encounter, raid set-up, artifact pathing, etc. In my raid there is a better-geared Hpriest (7 ilvls [im 858, hes 865] and a different stat breakdown-more mastery, less crit, more haste) who uses ToL and casts more flash heals because of it, but in most fights we are super competitive on total healing done (1-2% difference on total healing, alternating who does most). I also took a different artifact route than him (and most everyone else it seems) by going left towards light of T'uure (LoT), and not into the renew and heal/FH traits.

The real test imo is on Ursoc, where I hit ~400kHPS (about 50khps more than him and more total/effective healing). Since there is so much healing that has to be done, both single target and AOE, this fight is your chance to shine and look for ways to maximize each heal you put out. H-priest is a through-put monster. We literally perform miracles. The main thing I look for are bonuses to my healing. Because these bonus healing windows are small (8 seconds for divinity) tracking these buffs, especially Blessing of Tuure (BoT) procs, is super important. Also knowing when damage is about to happen is super important. Casting a juicy sanctify right as raid AOE damage goes out and following up with 33% bonus healing on your PoH is massive with divinity/blessing of the Naaru (BotN). If you get a lucky BoT proc thats a 53% bonus to PoH for 8 seconds, which is about 4 casts of it (and 38% for a little bit after that). Throw a LoT in there for another 25% on one person and you're in business. All of the bonus healing you do will also go towards your Mastery Hot because its a % of however much you healed for, too. With Light of the naaru talented and hallowed ground traits there is only a small window where you can't get a divinity rolling, or none if you have apotheosis popped. Only BoT is something that you can't control/trigger, but you can improve your proc chance by gearing more crit. There isn't any internal CD as far as i can tell because I've gotten chain procs on BoT.

I think that there are a lot of ways to maximize this class right now, where even a renew-focused build did just fine on Ursoc (according to an earlier post). Focus on what your stats are, how they interact with all of your spells, how your spells interact with each other, what the fight dictates, healer composition in raids, and what your play-style works best with; adjust as needed. The synergy in our kit is pretty insane between traits/stats/talents/serendipity/relics/legendaries, and understanding and utilizing that synergy is the real key to this class, not just 'pick X talents, cast y spells.' There is just too much going on to have it be that clear cut, even with stat weighting (e.g. More mastery=bigger EoL, but also more crit heals = bigger EoL from crit heals, and literally anything that buffs your heals will give a bigger mastery hot).

Also don't screw yourself with 'upgrades' that only boost your ilvl. If you are losing a big chunk of mastery/crit for something like versatility, you are totally screwing yourself. The int boost is generally not worth it. This counts for relics too, even though your weapon gives a crap load of int. Losing 3% healing on your holy words for another 5% bonus healing to leap of faith is probably not the right choice.

And don't forget not all fights require max healing. On nythendra I stand around a lot casting smite because there are large windows where raid damage is low, and use the FH procs from Surge of Light (SoL) for spot healing rot damage.

[anon5123]

Yes, thank you for repeating basic healing knowledge that has been known for months.

I think that there are a lot of ways to maximize this class right now, where even a renew-focused build did just fine on Ursoc (according to an earlier post).

Define "just fine", because Renew is objectively less HPS than other spells. It might work "fine" on Ursoc since the whole raid is constantly being pounded with tons of damage, but I can't imagine it being better HPS than Flash Heal and PoH usage.

[VigilantRose]

Define "just fine", because Renew is objectively less HPS than other spells. It might work "fine" on Ursoc since the whole raid is constantly being pounded with tons of damage, but I can't imagine it being better HPS than Flash Heal and PoH usage.

I believe when people are talking about a 'Renew build', they're really talking about a Benediction build where Renew is only hard-cast during periods of movement (ie: almost never).

[anon5123]

I believe when people are talking about a 'Renew build', they're really talking about a Benediction build where Renew is only hard-cast during periods of movement (ie: almost never).

That's not particularly a "renew build" then, you're still healing normally with Flash Heal, PoH, holy words, etc, you're just also throwing in a PoM on CD and just happening to get free renews from it.

[Noradin]

That's not particularly a "renew build" then, you're still healing normally with Flash Heal, PoH, holy words, etc, you're just also throwing in a PoM on CD and just happening to get free renews from it.

So for something to be a build it needs to change your spell priorities substantially?

[anon5123]

So for something to be a build it needs to change your spell priorities substantially?

Well, yeah. When you're specifically going out of your way to call it something different, that kinda implies that it's a substantial change from the norm.

Simply using Benediction instead of Apotheosis and hitting PoM on CD, I would not call this "renew build"...I'd call it "using Benediction".

"Renew build" implies that Renew is your main source of healing or main spell used. Which isn't the case with Benediction.

[Deleted]

A Benediction build is at most a PoM-oriented build, not a Renew build, unless you're picking talents like Enduring Renewal and Binding Heal as well as using legendary pants, for instance.

[Noradin]

Well, yeah. When you're specifically going out of your way to call it something different, that kinda implies that it's a substantial change from the norm.

Simply using Benediction instead of Apotheosis and hitting PoM on CD, I would not call this "renew build"...I'd call it "using Benediction".

"Renew build" implies that Renew is your main source of healing or main spell used. Which isn't the case with Benediction.

No, "Renew build" implies that the thing that distinguishes it from the norm has to do with "Renew".
For example because in that build "Renew" shows up in the logs where it wouldn't normally.

What you are thinking of would be called a "Renew Strategy", not a "Renew Build".

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A Benediction build is at most a PoM-oriented build, not a Renew build, unless you're picking talents like Enduring Renewal and Binding Heal as well as using legendary pants, for instance.

And even then you wouldn't hardcast Renew, which is why it is called a "build" not a "strategy".