[7.2] Legion Holy Priest Discussion

[VigilantRose]

Solid math, but i would like to add two more points. With Apotheosis you also get the Divinity buff and the increased prayer of healing from your artifact. So this needs to be calculated additionally. And the other point is that you get the healing when you actually need it. Apotheosis is a huge lifesaver when it gets tough, while Benediction might overheal alot. So unless there is constant raid damage, i would figure that Apotheosis should be the better talent in most cases.

I included both Power of the Naaru and Holy Guidance for PoH. I didn't include Divinity to either since it buffs both - and the increased uptime from Apotheosis isn't terribly significant (while being a bit confusing to toss into the calculation).

Prayer of Mending is pretty much the definition of 'get the healing when you need it'. If you look at both Prayer of Mending itself and the Renews it procs from Benediction, they have very low overhealing precisely because it doesn't trigger until its needed. In a long fight, it's not unusual to have 5-6 ProM just hanging around waiting for damage.

You're also not considering how much of that Apotheosis generally goes to waste. Healing isn't normally done in 30 sec windows - it's more like 10-15 sec windows. So I'm actually overstating the healing value of Apotheosis by a fair amount.

Benediction also creates a significant amount of healing in a time frame where Holy can't ordinarily do much - before the damage hits. So when you're pounding away with Prayer of Healing, your Benediction is also healing throughout while your Apotheosis is only useable on cooldown.

Certainly, Benediction isn't useable in every situation. But it has a very significant, if subtle, effect.

[Djriff]

I really like benediction, I use it on Nyth and the free renew healing is nice on my mana.

[spiritsurge]

That just means you don't understand the encounter at all. The raid takes the most damage a few moments after a tank swap, where the combined debuff stack goes to its highest - popping Apotheosis right after a swap would maximize the cd.

You're obviously talking about Mythic, at the time I was talking about Heroic and lower (I probably should've specified). I actually just experienced Mythic Dragons the other night and you are 100% correct, there's SO MUCH DAMAGE going out and Benediction won't do anywhere near enough to be worth taking over Apoth.

[VigilantRose]

You're obviously talking about Mythic, at the time I was talking about Heroic and lower (I probably should've specified). I actually just experienced Mythic Dragons the other night and you are 100% correct, there's SO MUCH DAMAGE going out and Benediction won't do anywhere near enough to be worth taking over Apoth.

Whether or not this is the case, the way you're approaching the analysis is from a tactical rather than a logistical standpoint. There are very few situations where the raid's healers are simply overwhelmed by AE hps. Rather what occurs is that their mana is overwhelmed after a certain point in the raid. So your first thought should generally be "how can we reduce the overall mana demands on healers throughout the raid?" rather than "how can we increase hps during a big AE?". If you solve the logistical problem of insufficient healer mana, they can transform that mana into the hps needed to address the AE in most cases.

[PosPosPos]

Whether or not this is the case, the way you're approaching the analysis is from a tactical rather than a logistical standpoint. There are very few situations where the raid's healers are simply overwhelmed by AE hps. Rather what occurs is that their mana is overwhelmed after a certain point in the raid. So your first thought should generally be "how can we reduce the overall mana demands on healers throughout the raid?" rather than "how can we increase hps during a big AE?". If you solve the logistical problem of insufficient healer mana, they can transform that mana into the hps needed to address the AE in most cases.

Apotheosis saves mana during its duration, which you would know if you actually played the spec, just like with disc.

And yes, it might be an alien concept for you since it's obvious you don't actually raid, but on many mythic encounters there are hps requirements at specific phases that requires cooldowns that isn't tranq/htt/dh/revival rather than just simply "spamming harder".

You're obviously talking about Mythic, at the time I was talking about Heroic and lower (I probably should've specified). I actually just experienced Mythic Dragons the other night and you are 100% correct, there's SO MUCH DAMAGE going out and Benediction won't do anywhere near enough to be worth taking over Apoth.

Heroics? Just solo heal one side with a large enough raid size. XD

[KaPe]

It's easy to forget that Holy Words aren't actually free and they cost mana. The cost isn't really obvious, since they are fairly cheap for their strength, but it all adds up during a fight. At 44k per Serenity and 55k per Sanctuary, each Apotheosis is worth a Mana Potion at the very least. Most likely more, since 30 seconds is enough to use more than just 3 Holy Words.

[VigilantRose]

It's easy to forget that Holy Words aren't actually free and they cost mana. The cost isn't really obvious, since they are fairly cheap for their strength, but it all adds up during a fight. At 44k per Serenity and 55k per Sanctuary, each Apotheosis is worth a Mana Potion at the very least. Most likely more, since 30 seconds is enough to use more than just 3 Holy Words.

Benediction adds about 900% spellpower healing, or 25% of a Sanctify, every 12 secs or so. So in some sense, it saves you the equivalent of a Holy Word's worth of mana every 48 sec - or about 3.75 Holy Words worth of mana per Apotheosis cooldown or 5.25 with the legs. That's also ignoring Divine Hymn and representing the mana benefits of Benediction as poorly as possible (the mana conversion rate is more likely to be based on Flash Heal than Holy Words).

What it really boils down to is that the potential upside for Benediction is enormous compared to Apotheosis. So in any situation where you're going to get near that potential upside, it doesn't make much sense not to take it. That doesn't mean it's applicable in every situation, but your automatic assumption should generally be to see if Benediction is workable - and then only take Apotheosis if it isn't.

One of the reasons it's so important to break down actions into the fundamental mechanics rather than just simply going on 'feel' is that it simply isn't possible to discern these sort of subtle differences on that basis. As human beings, we automatically want to put our faith in the expertise of other human beings. But this is an illusion that will steer you wrong at all turns - actual expertise is a product of careful data analysis so the only time you can trust it is when it can be shown to be based on such means. You don't trust your doctor because they wear a white lab coat and hang around hospitals. You trust your doctor because they had years of exposure to peer-reviewed data about human health and can, if you ask, break down precisely what forms the basis of their opinions.

[KaPe]

Benediction adds about 900% spellpower healing, or 25% of a Sanctify, every 12 secs or so. So in some sense, it saves you the equivalent of a Holy Word's worth of mana every 48 sec - or about 3.75 Holy Words worth of mana per Apotheosis cooldown or 5.25 with the legs. That's also ignoring Divine Hymn and representing the mana benefits of Benediction as poorly as possible (the mana conversion rate is more likely to be based on Flash Heal than Holy Words).

You also ignore Mastery in that calculation. Renew only gets it from the initial cast, which is pretty much negligible. With Sanctify, that's 30-40% more healing, so another 1000% sp. There's also the chance of procing Artifact trait and buffing PoH. There's Divinity for further healing buff.

Renew and PoM synergy is limited to Holy Mending, which is a decent trait that offers a small amount of ... well, not exactly burst, but at least something bigger than regular hot ticks. Also, it seems that some people are claiming that "does not consume PoM on jump" trait isn't working - if that's true, this also might be hurting Benediction's performance.

Either way, at least those two talents have their uses and you can actually argue which one is better, depending on the boss. Circle of Healing, on the other hand... It doesn't fit in that talent row at all. Doesn't save mana, doesn't offer any burst healing, is expensive for what it does. I find it weird that nothing was done with it in 7.1, while they buffed other spells.

[Djriff]

CoH provides upfront mobile healing with AoE. They probably think it's fine for it's "niche". I use it in dungeons and like it over benediction or apotheosis.

[anon5123]

[Circle of Healing] is expensive for what it does.

It's actually more mana-efficient than PoH. Especially considering that it has a longer range and as such, is more likely to hit all 6 targets.

[VigilantRose]

You also ignore Mastery in that calculation. Renew only gets it from the initial cast, which is pretty much negligible. With Sanctify, that's 30-40% more healing, so another 1000% sp. There's also the chance of procing Artifact trait and buffing PoH. There's Divinity for further healing buff.

If you're playing with Benediction, you're likely not focusing so much on Mastery since it doesn't buff nearly as much of your healing. Renew from Benediction doesn't proc Mastery at all as far as I know (since you only get the periodic heal). Over a 30 sec period, a 3:1 rotation means 4 Sanctuary while a 7:1 means 2 Sanctuary. So Apotheosis grants 2 extra proc chances every 3 minutes. Given that the norm is about 9 procs per 3 minute (one every 20 sec), this constitutes about a 20% improvement in BoT healing - which is generally 1% or so of your healing.

Divinity buffs all your spells, so it becomes an uptime issue. However, Renew has an inherent advantage in uptime since it is still healing during the GCD that proc'd it so all you're really doing is reducing the advantage that Renew already enjoys.

Renew and PoM synergy is limited to Holy Mending, which is a decent trait that offers a small amount of ... well, not exactly burst, but at least something bigger than regular hot ticks. Also, it seems that some people are claiming that "does not consume PoM on jump" trait isn't working - if that's true, this also might be hurting Benediction's performance.

I do know I've seen Benediction blanket an entire raid over time, so it's not entirely bugged. I haven't tested it fully, though. In terms of Holy Mending, it's very significant in 5-man, it might be fairly significant for Divine Hymn and it's not particularly effective for just generalized usage.

[Deleted]

It's actually more mana-efficient than PoH. Especially considering that it has a longer range and as such, is more likely to hit all 6 targets.

This is actually a good point. I really want to try CoH full time in raid environment. With 2 "mana" trinkets to compensate it looks like a nice filler.

And being instant cast should help a lot with our poor mobility.

[anon5123]

This is actually a good point. I really want to try CoH full time in raid environment. With 2 "mana" trinkets to compensate it looks like a nice filler.

And being instant cast should help a lot with our poor mobility.

Though the downside is that it does not proc Serendipity like PoH does.

I too want to try out CoH, but I'm Disc for every fight except Il'gynoth.

[Djriff]

Though the downside is that it does not proc Serendipity like PoH does.

I too want to try out CoH, but I'm Disc for every fight except Il'gynoth.

Well PoH isn't going to be useful if you have to move and can't afford to sit there and cast it. CoH is the mobile PoH essentially.

[Noradin]

I do know I've seen Benediction blanket an entire raid over time, so it's not entirely bugged. I haven't tested it fully, though. In terms of Holy Mending, it's very significant in 5-man, it might be fairly significant for Divine Hymn and it's not particularly effective for just generalized usage.

It is, what you were seeing was possibly a either a case of having a lot of PoMs out there or a case of using Divine Hymn with multiple PoMs hopping around.

[Dawnrage]

Any advice for someone new to holy? I tried healing to help out a normal raid and did poorly for my ilvl, running OOM fairly fast. Am I suppose to relax on healing a bit except at certain periods? I don't really have mana regen trinkets and was just running two mastery ones. I have a lot of haste gear due to playing shadow and have nothing to really swap into.

[Nephthysis]

Any advice for someone new to holy? I tried healing to help out a normal raid and did poorly for my ilvl, running OOM fairly fast. Am I suppose to relax on healing a bit except at certain periods? I don't really have mana regen trinkets and was just running two mastery ones. I have a lot of haste gear due to playing shadow and have nothing to really swap into.

Mainly, that gear is super bad for holy. You shouldn't need a mana trinket, although a Spine or Darkmoon deck is really nice to give you wiggle room. You could try using a super mana-efficient Binding Heal/Heal/Enduring Renewal/Benediction kind of build until you manage to gather up some mastery/crit gear. I don't think it will be as effective as a "traditional" mastery/crit build though, but you can't do anything about the gear immediately.

Alternatively, buddy up to a tailor/JC and get a whole lot of 855 mastery/crit gear crafted.

[Dawnrage]

Mainly, that gear is super bad for holy. You shouldn't need a mana trinket, although a Spine or Darkmoon deck is really nice to give you wiggle room. You could try using a super mana-efficient Binding Heal/Heal/Enduring Renewal/Benediction kind of build until you manage to gather up some mastery/crit gear. I don't think it will be as effective as a "traditional" mastery/crit build though, but you can't do anything about the gear immediately.

Alternatively, buddy up to a tailor/JC and get a whole lot of 855 mastery/crit gear crafted.

I actually was messing with the enduring renew/binding heal thing since I assumed it was more mana efficient, but I found myself with a whole lot of nothing to heal most of the time, so I would just spam renew all over since I thought it was mana efficient, and it just made me OOM faster. I was running CoH though so maybe that's where I went wrong. I didn't try flash heal spam/ToL, but is that just out of the question with the haste gear I have, with crit being my second highest stat (though not nearly as high as my haste)? I only have 21 points in my holy weapon too, so no holy mending and the trait before it that gives PoM a chance to not consume a charge maxed out. I was really afraid to use my holy words too in fear of going OOM faster.

[Nephthysis]

I actually was messing with the enduring renew/binding heal thing since I assumed it was more mana efficient, but I found myself with a whole lot of nothing to heal most of the time, so I would just spam renew all over since I thought it was mana efficient, and it just made me OOM faster. I was running CoH though so maybe that's where I went wrong. I didn't try flash heal spam/ToL, but is that just out of the question with the haste gear I have, with crit being my second highest stat? I only have 21 points in my holy weapon too, so no holy mending and the trait before it that gives PoM a chance to not consume a charge maxed out. I was really afraid to use my holy words too in fear of going OOM faster.

Say your prayers (PoM trait) doesn't work right now anyway, and losing holy mending isn't a huge deal.

Use Heal in those spaces where you don't have much urgent healing to be done, and try Benediction. Make sure you're casting PoM on CD with all that haste. I can't promise it'll work great because I've never had a haste-heavy gear set in Legion, but that'd be my best guess.

Alternatively (again), Disc shares that Haste/Crit preference with Shadow.

[spiritsurge]

I actually was messing with the enduring renew/binding heal thing since I assumed it was more mana efficient, but I found myself with a whole lot of nothing to heal most of the time, so I would just spam renew all over since I thought it was mana efficient, and it just made me OOM faster. I was running CoH though so maybe that's where I went wrong. I didn't try flash heal spam/ToL, but is that just out of the question with the haste gear I have, with crit being my second highest stat (though not nearly as high as my haste)? I only have 21 points in my holy weapon too, so no holy mending and the trait before it that gives PoM a chance to not consume a charge maxed out. I was really afraid to use my holy words too in fear of going OOM faster.

You should try to give flash heal/ToL a shot even with your mana problems, it's super effective. I never go oom but I suppose I also have a ton of mastery and way less haste than you. I would recommend using 1 mana trinket and one mastery trinket. I really like Thrumming Gossamer from Violet Hold.

Don't worry too much about using your Holy Words despite the cost, if you need them you need them and you can't heal people after their dead. Also remember that Apotheosis makes your Holy Words free for it's duration when you need to spam some big heals.