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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Healprincess View Post
    So, I am reading good stuff about holy and disc, but some hours until I can sit and play myself to feel how it really is. I decided to check how warcraft logs are doing this day, annnnnnnnnnnnnd why are we last again lol

    It almost feels like when Hellfire citadel was coming out and I was maining Holy. #neverforget #bestclasstrinket #best4set
    Most of us are just happy that Holy is "better" than it has been since the end of BC. At least it's a whole spec and not a crummy renew bot now.

    If you really want the "cons" side of the story:

    -In HFC we're still dealing with crappy itemization. Bad set bonus, bad trinket. Your Spirit and Multistrike likely got changed to a whole lot of Versatility.

    -We're not very mobile. Leap glyph is gone. Our only movement abilities come at the cost of our only personal CD. Our instants are cd's (holy words) or really bad (renew).

    -Speaking of CD's, we have no DR CD's at all, either personal or raid, and Focused Will now only triggers on melee attacks so you are super squushy.

    -Blizzard keeps nerfing our single target heals for some reason. I still haven't seen any justification for this in logs and certainly not from Blizz, but they keep doing it. Renew got squashed. Flash Heal and Heal have gotten like 3 nerfs in a row now. Guardian Spirit talent got nerfed, etc.

    -Our talent tree is a hot mess compared to the other healers. It looks like someone shook up a regular healer's talents and let the pieces stay wherever they landed. Where is our utili-tier? Why is Symbol of Hope competing against Light of the Naaru?

    /grumpyoldveteran mode off

    It does get better in Legion though. Holy really needs the new healing paradigm before it starts to shine. If everyone is either full hp or dead, Echo of Light becomes ubertrash. At 110 that's no longer the case.

  2. #22
    Yeah, Nephthysis, I had the chance to be invited to both Alpha and Beta, and test most of the fights with both specs, so I get what you are saying. I think the data on warcraft logs will not change dramatically over the next few days when Europe had their chance too, but I hope I am wrong ofc

  3. #23
    Field Marshal Kohz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephthysis View Post
    Most of us are just happy that Holy is "better" than it has been since the end of BC. At least it's a whole spec and not a crummy renew bot now.

    If you really want the "cons" side of the story:

    -In HFC we're still dealing with crappy itemization. Bad set bonus, bad trinket. Your Spirit and Multistrike likely got changed to a whole lot of Versatility.

    -We're not very mobile. Leap glyph is gone. Our only movement abilities come at the cost of our only personal CD. Our instants are cd's (holy words) or really bad (renew).

    -Speaking of CD's, we have no DR CD's at all, either personal or raid, and Focused Will now only triggers on melee attacks so you are super squushy.

    -Blizzard keeps nerfing our single target heals for some reason. I still haven't seen any justification for this in logs and certainly not from Blizz, but they keep doing it. Renew got squashed. Flash Heal and Heal have gotten like 3 nerfs in a row now. Guardian Spirit talent got nerfed, etc.

    -Our talent tree is a hot mess compared to the other healers. It looks like someone shook up a regular healer's talents and let the pieces stay wherever they landed. Where is our utili-tier? Why is Symbol of Hope competing against Light of the Naaru?

    /grumpyoldveteran mode off

    It does get better in Legion though. Holy really needs the new healing paradigm before it starts to shine. If everyone is either full hp or dead, Echo of Light becomes ubertrash. At 110 that's no longer the case.
    I understand your frustration. I enjoyed playing Holy last night at HFC but the only headache I had throughout the raid is stressing out about which talents would be more viable than the other on each fight lol. I tried both Mastery stacking and Haste stacking last night and I think from my perspective, Mastery wins.

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  4. #24
    Fluffy Kitten Djriff's Avatar
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    I had a lot of success with pugging out HFC last night as holy. I was absolutely crushing healing, but I found myself going OOM pretty often lol.

    Here's my thoughts from last night:

    Trail of Light, it synergizes well with Surge of Light, but the main problem I see is that SoL is reliant on RNG procs. I didn't get as many procs as I thought I would, although Halo usually guaranteed one proc.

    Apotheosis is a weird talent. I'm not 100% sure the best time to use it, but I've been using it like a paladin would use wings. I did find it nice that I can basically solo heal the feast phase from gorefiend by going normal healing, Divine Hymn, pop Ring, Apotheosis, spam PoH/PoM and HW: Sanctify and just keep everyone topped off. The lack of absorbs really make holy shine in those situations.

    We do suffer from mobility issues, but learning from playing CoP on fights like manno and maintaining a silly debuff, stutter step casting is what will save us.

    Also just so everyone knows, the class trinket did change, now it's just a flat boost to Heal and Flash Heal, personally I didn't find a huge use for it, but at least that's something.

    I'm happy with how powerful Divine Hymn feels.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    Also just so everyone knows, the class trinket did change, now it's just a flat boost to Heal and Flash Heal, personally I didn't find a huge use for it, but at least that's something.
    I used the class trinket pugging mythic dungeons yesterday. I was reasonably happy with it given how badly the tanks were getting their faces smashed in.

    ToL bugged out for me on my first dungeon so I just swapped to Enlightenment and never went back. I really hope they get that fixed soon.

  6. #26
    Fluffy Kitten Djriff's Avatar
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    I can see usefulness for it in dungeons, however in raids I couldn't find much use for it unfortunately.

  7. #27
    Field Marshal Kohz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    I had a lot of success with pugging out HFC last night as holy. I was absolutely crushing healing, but I found myself going OOM pretty often lol.

    Here's my thoughts from last night:

    Trail of Light, it synergizes well with Surge of Light, but the main problem I see is that SoL is reliant on RNG procs. I didn't get as many procs as I thought I would, although Halo usually guaranteed one proc.

    Apotheosis is a weird talent. I'm not 100% sure the best time to use it, but I've been using it like a paladin would use wings. I did find it nice that I can basically solo heal the feast phase from gorefiend by going normal healing, Divine Hymn, pop Ring, Apotheosis, spam PoH/PoM and HW: Sanctify and just keep everyone topped off. The lack of absorbs really make holy shine in those situations.

    We do suffer from mobility issues, but learning from playing CoP on fights like manno and maintaining a silly debuff, stutter step casting is what will save us.

    Also just so everyone knows, the class trinket did change, now it's just a flat boost to Heal and Flash Heal, personally I didn't find a huge use for it, but at least that's something.

    I'm happy with how powerful Divine Hymn feels.
    I treated Apotheosis as Wings too lol on Tyrant last night. I used it in the middle of 2nd phase and went HAM mode on PoH / Sanctify. I also tried Binding Heal on Tyrant as well and see how that worked out and throughput wise, both were comparable.

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  8. #28
    We did 8/13 last night, Iskar + Fel lord both contained bugs that made us unable to complete the fight (Iskar fire debuff never went away once you got it. Fel Lord waves would instantly hit targets and explode without ever travelling, when they hit someone with latent it was instant wipe, when they hit someone w/o that person was instant killed).

    I have been playing on beta since about Feb/March, and spent most of that time as holy priest -- because I've always been a holy priest, it's just the class I want so badly to work out. In Mythic+ dungeons I've had pulls of over 550k HPS. Sadly, I haven't been able to make raid testing times/dates so missing out on that I understand renew is not filler. I understand the importance of holy words to what we do. I am excited that holy looks to not only be viable, but competitive and desirable.

    Yesterday was a real hard punch in the gut. Of the fights we did, the only one I felt good about was Reaver. I used a combination of different talents and gear choices through the night trying to find the best results. The only conclusion I came to was that UFE was just not getting the job done any more. I struggled to compete with our 720 druid (depending on gear I was between 742/745 for the fights). The only times I could surpass the druid are when he OOM'd himself.

    Generally I feel that we were overhealing (with 3 or 4 healers, one of them being a main swap and slightly undergeared). However we couldn't drop healers because we would not recover from the spikes of damage if we did.

    Apotheosis: Was good during feast and reaver pound only. Otherwise the damage patterns from encounters we did just don't match up well with this talent. Usually when casting it within a few seconds there was just nothing to heal. I'd have been spamming expensive heals (Flash or PoH) just to reduce a CD, when it would all have gone to overhealing. I took benediction on a few fights near the end of the night because of this (and I put on my 4pc to see how well it would synergize). I didn't take CoH on any fights, but likely will tonight. I only had 5 tomes so I was keeping my talent changes to a minimum.

    Surge: I was generally taking SoL, but it's definitely weaker than BH from a throughput perspective. However, I looked at it as a second layer of mana management. Surge does not proc nearly as much as it used to, but it does still offer a lot of advantages in an instant cast and reducing cool downs. Hard to see taking something else.

    I think the biggest problem is that we're healing in the WoD paradigm, with legion talents and class design. The fights simply don't mesh well with the 'big' talents we have. The outgoing damage continues to be so spiky and bursty in nature that our mastery is largely wasted, and the holy word's as a whole aren't useful enough because of the incoming damage patterns.

    Like I said though, still feels like a real punch in the gut fighting and casting like a mother fucker just to be at the bottom of the meters.

  9. #29
    So, the pre-release patch hit EU today. My observations on Holy after playing with it for half a day in non-hardcore content:

    Healing:
    - Holy Word: Serenity is the most OP thing ever. Seriously, it's amazingly powerful. It is hard to not love it. It probably saved me from wiping 20 times today.
    - Apotheosis is brilliant as a consequence, because it allows you to use that many more Holy Word: Serenity.
    - Apotheosis is thus a talent well worth taking, even if means throwing out Circle of Healing. Sadly.
    - The rest of the healing toolkit doesn't stand out. At all. I feel it doesn't matter what I cast, beyond Holy Word: Serenity.

    Fun:
    - I seriously miss Body & Soul. Body & Mind isn't the same. It's sloooow in comparison. Running around in cities is no longer fun.
    - The new Serendipity system isn't half bad actually. An incredible improvement over the Chakra system, and actually feels better than old serendipity too.

    DPS:
    - Holy Word: Chastise is powerful, hitting for about 10x as much as it used to. Didn't expect that change.
    - But Holy Word: Fire direct damage is nerfed pretty hard, most of the damage is from the DoT.
    - I do miss my SW: Pain dot for omnidirectional pulling. All in all, I think my DPS as Holy went up quite notably, so hard to complain.
    - Holy Nova is actually pretty good. Worse than Mind Sear, sure, but not useless. I never ever believed I would type those words and mean it.
    - Yes, running into packs and spamming Holy Nova will get you killed. Nothing new under the sun there.

    Mana:
    - The removal of spirit is very noticeable. Expect to go OOM.
    - The Ever-Blooming Frond is nerfed to not work outside Draenor. Meaning - water is now needed again. Don't queue without stocking up!

    Other things:
    - The tanks I healed in Timewalking dungeons felt a whole lot more squishy than pre-patch.
    - Leading me to question how the heck other healers can possibly manage to keep things alive without Holy Word: Serenity.

    All in all... I'm moderately optimistic on how this will work out in serious content. However, it feels like the spec revolves around a single spell: Holy Word: Serenity; everything else is just filler in comparison.
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  10. #30
    Immortal Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Is it a bug that Serendipity stacks don't show on the top corner of your screen or is it working as intended?

  11. #31
    Fluffy Kitten Djriff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Is it a bug that Serendipity stacks don't show on the top corner of your screen or is it working as intended?
    There is no such thing as a Serendipity stack.

  12. #32
    Right now I like holy priest - and have liked it in Draenor as well despite it not being at the very top overall. The focus on holy word might be a bit boring, as it's our go-to spell to keep tanks alive, since other direct heals has been nurfed.

    Talent wise it's a mixed bag - like Symbol of Hope being about mandatory in a raid. Something that is mandatory shouldn't be put as a talent IMO, it should be in your spellbook.

    But overall I am happy with the playstyle.

    As far as I can see the only healer that really seem to shine ATM is the resto druid, will be hard to keep up with them in legion. I guess/hope things will be tuned so that we don't have the whole xpac with one healer spec at the top from start to end.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    - The rest of the healing toolkit doesn't stand out. At all. I feel it doesn't matter what I cast, beyond Holy Word: Serenity.
    I think they screwed up with Sanctify. It should have been a 40 yard PBAE effect. As it stands right now, it's far too narrow to be the 'payoff' for Serendipity.

    - I seriously miss Body & Soul. Body & Mind isn't the same. It's sloooow in comparison. Running around in cities is no longer fun.
    The change from 60% -> 40% was a general change, I believe. I'm one of the few fans of Body & Mind (it has higher uptime than feathers, is more convenient to use), but I really think it should be off the GCD.

    - Holy Word: Chastise is powerful, hitting for about 10x as much as it used to. Didn't expect that change.
    I'd argue it's woefully underpowered. Serenity is 5x Flash Heal, Sanctify is 3.5x PoH and Chastise is only 2x Smite. Both Serenity and Sanctify are justified in having a 1 minute cooldown - they're dramatically more potent than comparable heals. In contrast, Chastise is a middle-of-the-road nuke that really isn't any more powerful than short cooldowns like Fire Blast (much less Penance). Blizzard could triple the power of Chastise and it still wouldn't be imbalanced given the cooldown and supporting material.

    - The tanks I healed in Timewalking dungeons felt a whole lot more squishy than pre-patch.
    - Leading me to question how the heck other healers can possibly manage to keep things alive without Holy Word: Serenity.
    The tanks are re-learning their mechanics as well. Expect them to be less squishy going forward. However, I found keeping up tanks pretty easy as Discipline except when people pulled the whole room.

  14. #34
    Was only able to get on for a bit last night thanks to work swapping me to mid-shift this week. Really liking using it in live, feels good but I realized something over and over for myself. I need to break the renew spam habit badly, caught myself doing it and thinking I shouldn't. Then a few minutes later I was doing it again. Gonna be interesting yet fun.
    Holy Priest Enthusiast and all around healing nutcase.

  15. #35
    /reports/Jqp2G7XcHkmvPtYR#fight=65&type=healing

    (nice I cant link lol)
    My logs from tonight, the class feels incomplete. I don't think you can design a class that has zero baseline mitigation and movement speed spells, that's one of my large criticisms of Holy's design, that and renew being mostly useless. I guess it's too late at this point but I'd like to see at least Desperate Prayer becoming baseline. I like Apotheosis and you can easily get +50% uptime on Divinity with it but I found myself casting Holy Words one after the other more often than I should and my uptime suffered as a result. There's very little choice in our talents, though. Apotheosis is versatile and I don't see how Benediction or CoH can compete with it. When you're mana constrained nothing feels competitive to Surge of Light or Enlightment or Divinity, two of the three passively increase your HPS as much if not more than their alternatives and none burden you with more mana intensive spells. Overall, I think we're mostly competitive with other healers and I like the core mechanics but I'd like to see an hps buff and some better survivability
    Last edited by Jarilo1; 2016-07-20 at 11:04 PM. Reason: clarity :)

  16. #36
    I dont like my logs from last night, I dont feel the power right now, that makes me think if the holy priest is the right class and spec to start legion as healer.
    I would apreciate if someone that have good logs from last night could share with us.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by VigilantRose View Post
    I'd argue it's woefully underpowered. Serenity is 5x Flash Heal, Sanctify is 3.5x PoH and Chastise is only 2x Smite. Both Serenity and Sanctify are justified in having a 1 minute cooldown - they're dramatically more potent than comparable heals. In contrast, Chastise is a middle-of-the-road nuke that really isn't any more powerful than short cooldowns like Fire Blast (much less Penance). Blizzard could triple the power of Chastise and it still wouldn't be imbalanced given the cooldown and supporting material.
    While you are correct, I think the idea is that Holy Priests shouldn't be allowed to be awesome in the DPS aspect. Having an instant 450% spell with an incapacitate (or stun) attached to it is already a pretty good deal. I do agree the 1 minute cooldown on such an ability is pretty silly though. Not at all warranted. That's the domain of 10 second cooldowns.

    I don't quite see the point of Smite resetting the cooldown of Holy Fire though. Holy Fire is provably better than Smite, even if you count Smite reducing the cooldown on HW: Chastise. But that is only true if you let the Holy Fire dot tick to completion. If you don't let that dot tick to completion, Holy Fire is worse than Smite. So basically, you never want to cast Holy Fire more than every 7 seconds anyway. Making the cooldown reset mechanic extremely pointless. Surely someone must have considered this when redesigning the holydps rotation?

    I interpret it as someone wanting to seriously nerf the output of instant spells. Holy Fire is a casualty, nerfed to the ground and then some compared to live. Chastise just ain't allowed to be particularly powerful in that world order. Give it a cast time, and the maybe. I'd be surprised if holypriests are allowed to go through this expansion without all three holy word spells getting cast times anyway. That's just how the world rolls.
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  18. #38
    Immortal Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djriff View Post
    There is no such thing as a Serendipity stack.
    Uhm, there were before. It stacked 2 or 3 times.

  19. #39
    Fluffy Kitten Djriff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    Uhm, there were before. It stacked 2 or 3 times.
    Serendipity is completely different now. See Serendipity

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    I don't quite see the point of Smite resetting the cooldown of Holy Fire though. Holy Fire is provably better than Smite, even if you count Smite reducing the cooldown on HW: Chastise. But that is only true if you let the Holy Fire dot tick to completion. If you don't let that dot tick to completion, Holy Fire is worse than Smite. So basically, you never want to cast Holy Fire more than every 7 seconds anyway. Making the cooldown reset mechanic extremely pointless. Surely someone must have considered this when redesigning the holydps rotation?
    Holy Fire DoT effect stacks twice.

    Pandemic is a thing, too.
    Last edited by Anastacy; 2016-07-21 at 02:30 AM.

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