[MISTWEAVER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[Livingmists]

How could we use EF twice during Mana Tea? I mean even if we clip it at 0,1s or something like that it still has a 12sec CD while Mana Tea only has a 10sec duration.

you use EF before the mana tea, make use of the double mastery on all the vivifies, and then clip an EF at the end. its the most optimal way to make use of mana tea and the amount of healing you can get inside it's window. at 20% haste MT's cast time will be 2.5 seconds. so that means when we finish its channel it will be 9.5s CD. so we can fit 7 vivifies in and then cast the last essence font. if you dont clip early, you'll have plenty of time to fit the mana tea in even at lower haste values. The amount of haste you need to make this not possible is around 45%. and if you play perfectly (no time lost between casts) at 27.12% haste you can even fit an 8th vivify in. (you cannot fit a 9th one in without losing the EF)

[Nyel]

Ah okay, I misunderstood your comment then.

But I'm still not convinced that Mana Tea is better than Rising Thunder with Legendary legs. Rising Thunder means 6 free Vivifies + 3 random buffs for your casts (60% chance of getting a 7th free Vivify) that amount to ~ 350k Mana free healing whereas Mana Tea is only ~ 220k (7 Vivifys + Essence Font over 10 seconds). Even without legs RT seems to be much more valuable than Mana Tea when we can't spam EF anymore but need to spam Vivify instead. And even if we really need that burst window over 10 seconds we have a) 250k Mana for 7 Vivifies with RT or b) 175k Mana for 7 Vivifies with Mana Tea. We can repeat a) every 30 seconds if needed and b) every 90 seconds. RT is much more flexible than Mana Tea (imho).

[ribthanwa]

Ah okay, I misunderstood your comment then.

But I'm still not convinced that Mana Tea is better than Rising Thunder with Legendary legs. Rising Thunder means 6 free Vivifies + 3 random buffs for your casts (60% chance of getting a 7th free Vivify) that amount to ~ 350k Mana free healing whereas Mana Tea is only ~ 220k (7 Vivifys + Essence Font over 10 seconds). Even without legs RT seems to be much more valuable than Mana Tea when we can't spam EF anymore but need to spam Vivify instead. And even if we really need that burst window over 10 seconds we have a) 250k Mana for 7 Vivifies with RT or b) 175k Mana for 7 Vivifies with Mana Tea. We can repeat a) every 30 seconds if needed and b) every 90 seconds. RT is much more flexible than Mana Tea (imho).

When are you planning on this being relevant? There is only going to be a week or two of 7.2.5 where ToS isn't out yet. And once we get our 4pc, RT because next to useless, even with legs.

[Nyel]

When are you planning on this being relevant? There is only going to be a week or two of 7.2.5 where ToS isn't out yet. And once we get our 4pc, RT because next to useless, even with legs.

I highly doubt RT is going to be useless with the 4pc, we're rather having one stack available all the time and then we can react whenever we reset the CD - I think that's pretty awesome.

[Floopa]

they nerfed RJW in this build and made vivify cost 0.5% less mana (when MWs going into 7.2.5 were going to have 0 mana issues)

blizzard please just delete this spec because you have no fucking idea what you're doing

[Montegomery]

Ah okay, I misunderstood your comment then.

But I'm still not convinced that Mana Tea is better than Rising Thunder with Legendary legs. Rising Thunder means 6 free Vivifies + 3 random buffs for your casts (60% chance of getting a 7th free Vivify) that amount to ~ 350k Mana free healing whereas Mana Tea is only ~ 220k (7 Vivifys + Essence Font over 10 seconds). Even without legs RT seems to be much more valuable than Mana Tea when we can't spam EF anymore but need to spam Vivify instead. And even if we really need that burst window over 10 seconds we have a) 250k Mana for 7 Vivifies with RT or b) 175k Mana for 7 Vivifies with Mana Tea. We can repeat a) every 30 seconds if needed and b) every 90 seconds. RT is much more flexible than Mana Tea (imho).

I'm assuming your 6 free uses of Vivify are coming from something along the lines of TFT+Vivify->Kick->TFT+Vivify every 30 seconds. That being the case there are a couple problems with your math:

Spoiler: 

First, 3 of those uses of Vivify are shared with the Mana Tea build (since it too can TFT->Vivify every 30 seconds). As such, the benefit of Rising Thunder in this case is only 3-4 free uses of Vivify, or ~150-200k mana. Second, Rising Sun Kick costs 2% Base Mana, so you're spending 66k mana for those 3 resets. That lowers the mana saved to ~84-134k mana.

The same goes for your A and B comparisons. The total cost of A is actually ~270k mana, and over three iterations will total ~809k. B, assuming it's going to follow the same pattern as A, save with one iteration covered by Mana Tea, spends 297k each of the two times without Mana Tea (but with one TFT for a free Vivify), and with the 7 covered by Mana Tea spends in total ~767k mana.

So really there isn't a huge difference in mana saved in these scenarios, and where there is a difference it slightly favors Mana Tea.

That said, all of that is academic because barring big changes Focused Thunder will clearly be the way to go once you have T20 4p. With Surge of Mists at a 10% proc rate and lasting 15 seconds, it'll be very easy to do exactly what you're suggesting we do with Rising Thunder, only instead of getting 2 free uses of Vivify we'll get four.

[EVB]

I may be reading it wrong, but isn't it a buff?

Nope. It used to buff whole EF, and now it buffs only HoT part (minor and mostly overhealing part)

[thebdc]

Nope. It used to buff whole EF, and now it buffs only HoT part (minor and mostly overhealing part)

Hmm, if I'm not mistaken it's a buff. Old: (135% SP + 48% SP) * 1.2 = 219.6% SP. New: 135% SP + 3*48% SP = 279% SP. Or is my math off?

[Montegomery]

It's only a buff in extremely ideal conditions (e.g. you hit close to 18 unique targets and the HoTs don't overheal). It's more of a sidegrade in most cases.

[cqwrteur]

people are still playing this shit? LOL

Vivify : 4% mana , 900% SP
Uplift: 4% mana , 990%*1.2 = 1188% sp

- - - Updated - - -

they nerfed RJW in this build and made vivify cost 0.5% less mana (when MWs going into 7.2.5 were going to have 0 mana issues)

blizzard please just delete this spec because you have no fucking idea what you're doing

Maintaining such a minor player base is a waste of money for blizzard. They know what they are doing. They just want to delete this spec.

[Rife]

So glad to see Blizzard listened. They even posted about the RJW mana change in the feedback thread so they must have read it and listened.

Vivify costing 0.5% less mana and buffing the overhealing aspect of EF through RJW is exactly what MW needed.

To everyone who said Blizzard was working on big changes or that we needed to relax because more substantial changes were obviously coming later in the PTR cycle...............LOLOLOLOL.

[Deleted]

This changes is not so bad. The old talent used to increase the sum (135+48) by 20%, that's a 34% additional healing from EF. With this change the gain is 48*2=96%. If you have to face a situation where you are forced to use EF twice then you could chose this talent and have an empowered EF.

I wish now that they make statue baseline and replace it by a talent that increase the duration of EF hots (+4s?) making haste/mastery spot healing a real thing in raid.

[Rife]

The next blue post pertaining to Mistweavers will be one in which Blizzard explains how they ever so unfortunately failed to manage expectations. That they only ever meant to convey their intent to add a CD to EF and make extremely minor, bordering on inconsequential changes to Mistweavers and never planned to overhaul or buff or significantly change the spec in any meaningful way.

[Tiphess]

You know you can just reroll right? That's what everyone is doing.

[Rakoth]

You know you can just reroll right? That's what everyone is doing.

My shaman is only 6 iLevels lower then my monk, and hasn't been in heroic yet. If 7.2.5 doesn't pan out, I guess I am going shaman.

[Deleted]

This changes is not so bad. The old talent used to increase the sum (135+48) by 20%, that's a 34% additional healing from EF. With this change the gain is 48*2=96%. If you have to face a situation where you are forced to use EF twice then you could chose this talent and have an empowered EF.

I wish now that they make statue baseline and replace it by a talent that increase the duration of EF hots (+4s?) making haste/mastery spot healing a real thing in raid.

Hot becomes 36% instead of 12% with rjw. Its a 200% increase so its x3 hot healing. At ilvl 910 its will roughly tick for 25k to 27k per tick.

[Probably]

MW preliminary changes make me a sad panda.

I should have just stayed paladin....

Anyway, what they should have done with RJW was leave the healing bonus and reduced the EF channel by 50%. That way there would be less times we have to stop a EF channel to do mechanics. I dunno. Who gives a shit about the healing of the Hot? It's only good for double mastery.

[Livingmists]

Ah okay, I misunderstood your comment then.

But I'm still not convinced that Mana Tea is better than Rising Thunder with Legendary legs. Rising Thunder means 6 free Vivifies + 3 random buffs for your casts (60% chance of getting a 7th free Vivify) that amount to ~ 350k Mana free healing whereas Mana Tea is only ~ 220k (7 Vivifys + Essence Font over 10 seconds). Even without legs RT seems to be much more valuable than Mana Tea when we can't spam EF anymore but need to spam Vivify instead. And even if we really need that burst window over 10 seconds we have a) 250k Mana for 7 Vivifies with RT or b) 175k Mana for 7 Vivifies with Mana Tea. We can repeat a) every 30 seconds if needed and b) every 90 seconds. RT is much more flexible than Mana Tea (imho).

those vivifies arent free. theyre 2% mana. and you have to spend 2% mana on the actually free ones that you would get without talenting it. so youre actually spending 18% mana, to save 24% mana. those are also 9 gcd's not used on other things. so you save 6% mana. and lose 9 gcds. where mana tea will save that much in 3 casts of vivify. and not lose out on any gcds.

[Montegomery]

Side Note: Refreshing Jade Wind's duration is affected by Haste (its cooldown is not). At my Haste level (25%) that means that hitting RJW immediately after Essence Font only covers 3 ticks, and hitting it immediately before will only cover a single tick. The current RJW are pretty laughable as a result.

[Deleted]

RT main issue is that you lose GCD for pure dps while you want to heal. RSK should generate one charge of SG with RT so the GCD is not completely lost. This makes sense as it has the same cost than effuse.