[MISTWEAVER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[Buildapanda]

I'm not sure if it's optimal, but in the H HFC that I ran, I was casting quite a bit of EM, either as a spot heal, or to prop up one of the tanks, and using Weak Auras to keep track of Life Cycles.

My understanding is that it's not for throughput, but rather mana savings. The -20% mana cost buffs add up over the fight and grant the most mana returns, IIRC.

The bolded part i think is very underestimated by most people. Since we no longer have disc priests preemptive hotting is going to be the new shields, and with enveloping mist being so short and it's cast time being so long, you have to sometimes cast it when you don't want to or it isn't "optimal" in order to give the tank some breathing room as damage comes in.

[Grofu]

(log link was here)

I think this log supports my point. You started out with two envelopings, then cast vivify three times before casting enveloping again. There are only a couple of points in that whole fight where Lifecycles really kicked in, around 2:45 and again around 4:45, where you had some back-and-forth action going between the two spells within the bonus time limit.

Also, I don't have enough posts yet to post a link, but if you look at some of this week's kills it's fairly clear that most of us are casting one spell (either Enveloping or Vivify) far more often than the other one in any given fight. Admittedly some of the logs I've seen, like yours, show a relative parity between the two, and of course at this point we're all just feeling our way through fights, but most of them show a great disparity between the two spells. And even when there's a relative parity, it's tough to trip the bonus from Lifecycles by properly swapping back and forth (as opposed to reacting to the healing that's actually needed), and doing so within the Lifecycles buff time limit.

Maybe it will just take time for folks to work out that rotation, but right now I'm just not liking the way Lifecycles makes me think. I find myself more focused on an artificial back-and-forth rotation instead of focusing on what's the best fit for the current damage situation. I found myself casting extra Envelopings just to pick up the 20% bonus for Vivify, which I think we'd all agree is just dumb.

Peronally I think it is the intended playstyle and we should be throwing out Enveloping mists in the same way in 6.2 where it was better to cast spells even when there was no damage so we could bank mana tea for high damage phases. In 7.0 you want to always be ready to cast a super charged vivify(20% less mana/40% bonus healing), so 100% renewing mist uptime and using enveloping mist liberally should be what you are doing in low damage phases so you are always ready for high bursts of damage(kind of like our renewing mist uplift proactive healing playstyle from 6.2). I'm not good at math but I would guess that as long as your enveloping mist and vivify overhealing do not add up to 40% you are making out ahead.

Makes sense, especially while our rusting T18 gear is still hanging off our HFC-weary limbs.

- - - Updated - - -

Thing is, you're not channeling Soothing Stream very often in raids, seeing as it's interrupted by REM, Vivify, Roll, etc.

In 5mans, you can often get away with just casting EM on the tank and keeping him up with Soothing Stream; in raids you can't just sit there and channel it on someone because there's a lot more to heal.

I'm not sure if it's optimal, but in the H HFC that I ran, I was casting quite a bit of EM, either as a spot heal, or to prop up one of the tanks, and using Weak Auras to keep track of Life Cycles.

My understanding is that it's not for throughput, but rather mana savings. The -20% mana cost buffs add up over the fight and grant the most mana returns, IIRC.

I'm not suggesting that our time is better spent soothing targets than doing the lifecycles rotation. There are other things we can do with our time.

[anon5123]

I'm not suggesting that our time is better spent soothing targets than doing the lifecycles rotation. There are other things we can do with our time.

I'm just talking Mist Wrap VS Life Cycles. Mist Wrap really only helps EM, whereas Life Cycles helps both EM and Vivify.

What are the "other things we can do with our time" ? Obviously you're going to be hitting REM on cooldown, but outside of that, what else is there to do? I found myself just doing REM on cooldown and then using EM/Vivify as necessary, with an Effuse here and there for light damage.

[Grofu]

I'm not sure if it's optimal, but in the H HFC that I ran, I was casting quite a bit of EM, either as a spot heal, or to prop up one of the tanks, and using Weak Auras to keep track of Life Cycles.

The bolded part i think is very underestimated by most people. Since we no longer have disc priests preemptive hotting is going to be the new shields, and with enveloping mist being so short and it's cast time being so long, you have to sometimes cast it when you don't want to or it isn't "optimal" in order to give the tank some breathing room as damage comes in.

I agree about the changes to disc priests (and holy pals) making preemptive hotting important. Just look how significant ReM is turning out to be in the early logs.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm just talking Mist Wrap VS Life Cycles. Mist Wrap really only helps EM, whereas Life Cycles helps both EM and Vivify.

What are the "other things we can do with our time" ? Obviously you're going to be hitting REM on cooldown, but outside of that, what else is there to do? I found myself just doing REM on cooldown and then using EM/Vivify as necessary, with an Effuse here and there for light damage.

I mean reacting to situations instead of trying to focus on a back-and-forth rotation between Vivify and Enveloping Mist just to snag that 20% bonus. It just seems like robbing peter to pay paul, especially if I end up casting an unnecessary 10,000-mana spell just to save 2,000 mana off the cost of another spell.

Your point about using Weak Auras seems valuable. I assume it provides a visual aid so you'll know which bonus (if any) is available at a given moment. That would help with the spot decision-making.

[cqwrteur]

How to calculate healing of mastery. I need it to make addons.


Looks like spell power * mastery * (1+ versatility) is a bit higher than actual healing



ps : 600 posts !

[Supliftz]

I mean reacting to situations instead of trying to focus on a back-and-forth rotation between Vivify and Enveloping Mist just to snag that 20% bonus. It just seems like robbing peter to pay paul, especially if I end up casting an unnecessary 10,000-mana spell just to save 2,000 mana off the cost of another spell.

Your point about using Weak Auras seems valuable. I assume it provides a visual aid so you'll know which bonus (if any) is available at a given moment. That would help with the spot decision-making.

Nothing is stopping you from breaking away from the lifecycles rotation. But you also have to realize the alternatives are worse for mana sustain if you're heavily using enm + vivify on an encounter. So even if you briefly break the rotation, abusing lifecycles for 90% of the fight is still going to be better for mana sustain compared to sotc.

[Spotnick]

Selfless healer at least came with extremely fast cast times, which changed up the extremely slow gameplay of holy paladin w/o selfless healing. That really isn't the case with mistweaver. I'm coming from a somewhat fast playstyle (rt stacking haste) to stacking crit and spamming enm > vivify > enm > vivify. It's just not fun period.

Well, if there is one thing LifeCycles should do is shorten the freaking cast times of both spells. Or maybe make the ones with upliftling trance instant.

I said in the beta feedback thread that we have too many spells with long cast times, and that includes Sheilun's Gift.. that's really not fun to see somebody die while you have a cast bar.

- - - Updated - - -

Only talking from a 110 lvl perspective. Chi-ji is absolutly amazing. A raid cooldown that scales well with all stats but no mastery scaling. For 5 mans the animucrane pretty much makes aoe damage no problem att all for 45 sec. While the statue is bad the animucrane gives so much groupburst healing.

At 110 verse becomes a good stat as it requires 400 rating for 1/0.5% compared to the 380 for 1% crit.

It's buggy though, there are many reports of Chi-Ji not moving at all after 2 jumps.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, don't forget... casting Renewing Mist right after Vivify and Enveloping Mist triggers Extend Life bug just like it did for Uplift. This doesn't feel natural at first but feel free to abuse that while you can.

[Supliftz]

Well, if there is one thing LifeCycles should do is shorten the freaking cast times of both spells. Or maybe make the ones with upliftling trance instant.

I said in the beta feedback thread that we have too many spells with long cast times, and that includes Sheilun's Gift.. that's really not fun to see somebody die while you have a cast bar.

if you don't like long cast times, play sotc + rt?

[Buildapanda]

if you don't like long cast times, play sotc + rt?

Aren't those fistweaving talents? Why would you use those in any progression environment?

[Ceronn]

Did something change with Jade Statue recently? I thought if you interrupted your Soothing Mists, it would still continue to heal for a short while. It stops channeling immediately when I stop. If this is the intended behavior, I don't understand why the statue is even a thing. It should just make Soothing Mists 50% better and not have to fuss with the statue.

[Deleted]

I dont really consider 1.5 or even 2.0 cast to be very long cast times. Especially when mistweaver scales quite well with haste. New rem is so much buffed up compared to before. Used to be for generating cheap chi. Now its one of the strongest hots in the game.

[Rife]

The entire level 45 talent row is lame @ 100.

Lifecycles is only good if there is a decent amount of healing to be done with Env which simply isn't the case if you're raiding with a Hpal or Rdruid, or both, or good healers who can keep HPS flowing to the tanks/debuff targets while also spot healing the raid.

SotC isn't worth the GCD's for the mana return in a world where innervate exists and bosses die in 2 minutes or less.

Mist Wrap is useless without a decent amount of healing needing to be done with Env and Soothing while moving doesn't mean shit when it gets broken by casts, roll and ReM on CD.

The circlejerk behind Mist Wrap also needs to get toned down a bit. Mist Wrap is superior in 5-mans because it's a throughput talent in a row where the other 2 options are mana conservation talents and trash packs/bosses don't last long enough to warrant the added conservation, thus the (marginal) throughput talent wins out.

If you picked Mist Wrap and there is a point where you don't have the mana to cast an Enveloping on someone who needs it, even once, you should of picked Lifecycles. If mana is an issue AT ALL you should of picked Lifecycles. Even if you cast nothing but Enveloping and only hit Vivify with UT procs Lifecycles is still superior to Mist Wrap. We went over the maths behind this in the old thread. Lifecycles is always, always, always going to be the superior choice unless mana is 100% not an issue and you can spam Envelopings all day without going oom, like in quick trash pack kills or lusted 5 man bosses.

God damn Lifecycles is boring to play though and the whole spec feels clunky as fuck in raids. Kill me.

Funnily enough, new Disc Priest plays more like T18 6.2 MW in raids than the new MW does.

[Deleted]

Aren't those fistweaving talents? Why would you use those in any progression environment?

If you're not doing damage during progress as a healer you're playing outright wrong.

RT offers pretty comparable healing overall to the other talents, with the possible downside of being more to pay attention to than the other talent. sotc is a little more niche but there are some damage profiles it would be a solid pick for.

[Buildapanda]

If you're not doing damage during progress as a healer you're playing outright wrong.

RT offers pretty comparable healing overall to the other talents, with the possible downside of being more to pay attention to than the other talent. sotc is a little more niche but there are some damage profiles it would be a solid pick for.

With mana being a concern with no spirit and your job being a healer is to heal. Lifecycles all the way.

[Supliftz]

The entire level 45 talent row is lame @ 100.

Lifecycles is only good if there is a decent amount of healing to be done with Env which simply isn't the case if you're raiding with a Hpal or Rdruid, or both, or good healers who can keep HPS flowing to the tanks/debuff targets while also spot healing the raid.

SotC isn't worth the GCD's for the mana return in a world where innervate exists and bosses die in 2 minutes or less.

Mist Wrap is useless without a decent amount of healing needing to be done with Env and Soothing while moving doesn't mean shit when it gets broken by casts, roll and ReM on CD.

The circlejerk behind Mist Wrap also needs to get toned down a bit. Mist Wrap is superior in 5-mans because it's a throughput talent in a row where the other 2 options are mana conservation talents and trash packs/bosses don't last long enough to warrant the added conservation, thus the (marginal) throughput talent wins out.

If you picked Mist Wrap and there is a point where you don't have the mana to cast an Enveloping on someone who needs it, even once, you should of picked Lifecycles. If mana is an issue AT ALL you should of picked Lifecycles. Even if you cast nothing but Enveloping and only hit Vivify with UT procs Lifecycles is still superior to Mist Wrap. We went over the maths behind this in the old thread. Lifecycles is always, always, always going to be the superior choice unless mana is 100% not an issue and you can spam Envelopings all day without going oom, like in quick trash pack kills or lusted 5 man bosses.

God damn Lifecycles is boring to play though and the whole spec feels clunky as fuck in raids. Kill me.

Funnily enough, new Disc Priest plays more like T18 6.2 MW in raids than the new MW does.

I wouldn't really call a 16.67% increase to enm healing, and a flat 10% hps increase to all your spells a "marginal" healing increase for 5 mans. But hey that's just me though.

The point I made originally is to say mist wrap wasn't undertuned. It serves it's purpose fine, and will see play on a number of bosses in t19.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm just talking Mist Wrap VS Life Cycles. Mist Wrap really only helps EM, whereas Life Cycles helps both EM and Vivify.

What are the "other things we can do with our time" ? Obviously you're going to be hitting REM on cooldown, but outside of that, what else is there to do? I found myself just doing REM on cooldown and then using EM/Vivify as necessary, with an Effuse here and there for light damage.

it's incorrect to say mistwrap -only- helps enveloping mist. Ignoring the amp increase is like ignoring free RSK resets provided by sotc

[anon5123]

If you're not doing damage during progress as a healer you're playing outright wrong.

RT offers pretty comparable healing overall to the other talents, with the possible downside of being more to pay attention to than the other talent. sotc is a little more niche but there are some damage profiles it would be a solid pick for.

How exactly does RT provide more healing? I was always curious about the calculations behind it. When I was trying it out in Proving Grounds, it just felt really clunky having to stay in melee and hit an ability every 10 seconds, for what felt like a break-even in healing.

TFT in general, doesn't really feel like an "increase" to healing, unless for REM, or for saving mana with Vivify. For the most part, I've just been using TFT with those two, depending on the situation, either to get a bit more raid healing, or save some mana.

But me, I'm very tired of "hit an ability every 10 seconds while healing" because I had to do that shit all throughout WoD with my Priest. Was so glad when they finally buffed Mindbender to have similar mana restoring abilities.

it's incorrect to say mistwrap -only- helps enveloping mist. Ignoring the amp increase is like ignoring free RSK resets provided by sotc

Do we really use EM and then keep healing that target often enough? I was using EM like a spot heal on people with low health, or people who had some kind of debuff on them that required lots of healing, or just throwing it on the tank and then getting back to raid healing.

[Supliftz]

Do we really use EM and then keep healing that target often enough? I was using EM like a spot heal on people with low health, or people who had some kind of debuff on them that required lots of healing, or just throwing it on the tank and then getting back to raid healing.

yes, you would be vivifying/soothing/reming off that target.

[anon5123]

yes, you would be vivifying/soothing/reming off that target.

But the +40% healing from EM only affects that target, right? Doesn't affect the other targets healed by Vivify? Just making sure.

Often times when I EM someone, they're healed to full within the next 3-4 seconds from a combination of EM and other healers, so that's why I was avoiding casting more heals on them, because they're going to be topped up anyways.

[Thudor]

In a video comparation for Legion healers done by method, the author says Monk are almost the worst healers, just before disc priest. What do you think about it?

EDIT: I cant write down the url in the forum T_T but the video is called The Best Legion Healer Class and Spec

- - - Updated - - -

Another question I wanted to ask you is if you have already try Fistweaving with this changes. Is it a viable option for raiding?

[Deleted]

In a video comparation for Legion healers done by method, the author says Monk are almost the worst healers, just before disc priest. What do you think about it?

I think Method is a shadow of its former self now that over half its raid roster went over to Serenity.

As for the vid, the guy has a disclaimer at the beginning saying he hasn't played some classes as much as the others, something painfully obvious when he cites the fact that Monks have to be in melee as their main drawback. So much misinformation. I hope that people won;t take it for gospel purely because it comes from Method's YT channel.