[MISTWEAVER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[cqwrteur]

because you have no reason to press ef because extend life exists.

But extend life overheals a lot, especially with gust of mist. Do you think it is always effective?

[Buildapanda]

Pretty much this. Mana Tide and Mana Tea are not apt comparisons what so ever.

Exactly, why people complained about the old mana tea was beyond me. It was one of the most versatile mana regen tools in the game. Sigh,

[Supliftz]

Exactly, why people complained about the old mana tea was beyond me. It was one of the most versatile mana regen tools in the game. Sigh,

because it made the gameplay worse.

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But extend life overheals a lot, especially with gust of mist. Do you think it is always effective?

yes because extend life does a fuck ton of healing.

[Desma]

because it made the gameplay worse.

wait what? I think the old Mana Tea was a big part of why I personally liked mistweaver a lot. It was a big part of making the healing feel really smooth.

[Deleted]

Mana tea and chi made them add extra basemana % on all the healing spells. Thats why mistweavers had the highest mana cost of the healing classes.

It was the clear reason mistweaver where the worst 5 man healer in wod.

[Buildapanda]

because it made the gameplay worse.

That is very subjective, and I've read and listened to all points of view on the issue, and nobody has came up with one good reason why it was a good idea to remove mana tea. I'm willing to still hear why you think it is not engaging based on what I will address below.

https://youtu.be/a41X0x57tUs?t=12m5s

This is your final boss interview, where you LITERALLY BEGGED blizzard to take away mana tea without making any compelling reasons.(which nobody has done still) What you didn't consider was that blizzard would totally cut the cord between healing and dpsing, killing fistweaving forever. Affinity was 100% correct. You will not see mistweavers doing dps during progression, the issue of just bring another dps is even more exacerbated with eminence gone. Now our spec literally is to sit on our gcds waiting for things to happen because if we do spam heals we oom, why would you be doing anything suboptimal if there isn't a refund attached? That was the benefit of mana tea, what we have now is not engaging at all. Making sure people are topped off and getting a little mana refunded in the form of mana tea was fun and engaging gameplay. Now I feel extra stingy with my mana and not as liberal as I was in throwing out heals. So for you to say it's worse is strictly subjective,and I would say it's objectively false because I feel like casting during low damage phases anything that isn't 0 mana dps abilities is a detriment to the raid and your other healers. So I'm objectively doing less things during a fight. Sure it's a different playstyle and it kind of works, but to say it is fun and engaging and better than what we had, no way.

Before we could plan how the whole fight would play out based on damage patterns, boss abilities, and oh crap situations using mana tea as a pendulum of sorts that directly addressed the highs and lows of being a healer. We had the tools to deal with most damage patterns.(except patterns which something like vivify would address) I just don't think you guys thought through your requests very well, and didn't consider other changes blizzard would make on top of removing mana tea, in doing so they created a hackjob of a spec that is completely the opposite of what half the community wanted.(As proven by a recent post on reddit showing half the community is unhappy with the spec)


The consequences of the removal of mana tea were clear, and I was against it from the start, and now seeing what the removal has done to the spec I am not surprised in the least. With mana tea gone there was no reason to have chi, with chi gone there was no way to balance uplift unless you make it super expensive(see how that one glyph never worked out), with uplift gone we lose our massive impact and range, so we get a poorly balanced spell that tries to mimic the power of uplift in Essence Font, but does so horribly. I just don't see anything positive to the removal of mana tea along with chi. And I think the two were intertwined to the balance of the spec too much, so by requesting the removal of mana tea, you got chi nixed as well.

[Supliftz]

wait what? I think the old Mana Tea was a big part of why I personally liked mistweaver a lot. It was a big part of making the healing feel really smooth.

What gameplay did sub 2133 spirit mana tea add though? The same thing could of been achieved if they lowered the costs of all chi generation spells by 1%, and gave us a random proc like omen of clarity that gives us mana. We would of still had infinite mana regardless. All mana tea really did was -force- you to spend gcds on a spell that didn't scale off your haste (a big deal with haste was so good in HFC/BRF), instead of using those gcds on something far more interesting such as fistweaving.

Mana Tea above 2133 spirit just became a rotational annoyance. It became something you pressed every x number of seconds so you could sustain 100% uptime rushing jade wind. About as interesting as hitting judgements of the pure on cd back in firelands.

That's why it's a good thing it's gone. Now it's replacement of afk channeling soothing mist isn't -that- much better, but at least you have talented alternatives that create active gameplay.

[Buildapanda]

Mana Tea above 2133 spirit just became a rotational annoyance. It became something you pressed every x number of seconds so you could sustain 100% uptime rushing jade wind. About as interesting as hitting judgements of the pure on cd back in firelands.

that sounds like a problem with rjw balance, not mana tea. And its very apparent why it was the way it was(xuen was on a long cd and unreliable, and chitorpedo forced us to waste our mobility for healing) , now nobody is taking rjw because it's too expensive.

[Supliftz]

That is very subjective, and I've read and listened to all points of view on the issue, and nobody has came up with one good reason why it was a good idea to remove mana tea. I'm willing to still hear why you think it is not engaging based on what I will address below.

https://youtu.be/a41X0x57tUs?t=12m5s

This is your final boss interview, where you LITERALLY BEGGED blizzard to take away mana tea without making any compelling reasons.(which nobody has done still) What you didn't consider was that blizzard would totally cut the cord between healing and dpsing, killing fistweaving forever. Affinity was 100% correct. You will not see mistweavers doing dps during progression, the issue of just bring another dps is even more exacerbated with eminence gone. Now our spec literally is to sit on our gcds waiting for things to happen because if we do spam heals we oom, why would you be doing anything suboptimal if there isn't a refund attached?

Btw I'm almost positive if I went into my post history here on mmo-champion, I could find posts of myself talking about why I dislike Mana Tea. But considering willfully ignored those posts to fit your own narrative, I replied to the guy above you explaining (again) why I dislike mana tea.

I just think it's hilarious that you think mana tea was the only reason why people went into crane stance in WoD. We literally just came from an instance where people went into crane stance on progression for it's damage potential only. Mana wasn't even a relevant factor for mistweavers for the entirety of HFC, and wasn't a factor on multiple bosses in BRF where you fistweaved.

Like I said in that video, mana tea doesn't need to exist for you to go do damage as a mistweaver. RT is a very viable playstyle at 110, and you're doing that for the ability to do damage and healing at the same time.

I do somewhat agree with your point about how our healing output in relation to mana costs is tuned. In reality nothing has really changed. All the spells are overcosted as usual, at the cost of doing insane output, but you're forced to "waste" gcds on a "dead" spell to sustain yourself. The only difference is that dead spell does healing instead of giving you mana, and mana in general is more tightly tuned. I doubt if mana tea was introduced mistweaver's supposed mana problems would be fixed.

Maybe they could nerf some our spells a bit and lower their mana costs to fix this problem for players.

That was the benefit of mana tea, what we have now is not engaging at all. Making sure people are topped off and getting a little mana refunded in the form of mana tea was fun and engaging gameplay. Now I feel extra stingy with my mana and not as liberal as I was in throwing out heals. So for you to say it's worse is strictly subjective,and I would say it's objectively false because I feel like casting during low damage phases anything that isn't 0 mana dps abilities is a detriment to the raid and your other healers. So I'm objectively doing less things during a fight. Sure it's a different playstyle and it kind of works, but to say it is fun and engaging and better than what we had, no way.

Again, this is just blizzard rebalancing mistweaver so you actually care about mana. Like I've said, even if mana tea didn't exist back in WoD, we would still have infinite mana because they simply didn't balance our spell costs very well back in WoD. You're experiencing a healer who's actually limited by mana, instead of a healer that's limited by mana instead of a healer that's limited by your APM.

It's not even like live mistweaver doesn't have the tools to deal with low damage phases. That's the entire purpose of things like spirit of the crane and soothing mist. You play efficiently during low damage and then dps/channel soothing as much as possible to sustain your mana. This is no different to how other healers are at 110.

Before we could plan how the whole fight would play out based on damage patterns, boss abilities, and oh crap situations using mana tea as a pendulum of sorts that directly addressed the highs and lows of being a healer. We had the tools to deal with most damage patterns.(except patterns which something like vivify would address) I just don't think you guys thought through your requests very well, and didn't consider other changes blizzard would make on top of removing mana tea, in doing so they created a hackjob of a spec that is completely the opposite of what half the community wanted.(As proven by a recent post on reddit showing half the community is unhappy with the spec)

Mana tea didn't do anything for this. Again, Mistweaver mana in WoD was poorly balanced. The exact same thing could of been achieved by reducing spell costs by 1% and adding in an omen of clarity like effect for double crit mana tea. You are finally experiencing a healer who is limited by mana.

With mana tea gone there was no reason to have chi, with chi gone there was no way to balance uplift unless you make it super expensive(see how that one glyph never worked out), with uplift gone we lose our massive impact and range, so we get a poorly balanced spell that tries to mimic the power of uplift in Essence Font, but does so horribly. I just don't see anything positive to the removal of mana tea along with chi. And I think the two were intertwined to the balance of the spec too much, so by requesting the removal of mana tea, you got chi nixed as well.

lol what? combo points for a healer can exist without an arbitrary mana refund mechanic existing. Or are we forgetting that holy power existed in the past and -never- had a mechanic like mana tea? The actual purpose for mana tea originally was to off-set mistweaver having a 1.0 gcd baseline, and most of it's output coming from it's combo point system. It was a gate intended to prevent the class from going out of control.

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that sounds like a problem with rjw balance, not mana tea. And its very apparent why it was the way it was(xuen was on a long cd and unreliable, and chitorpedo forced us to waste our mobility for healing) , now nobody is taking rjw because it's too expensive.

No. this is a problem with mistweaver not having a mana dump in it's kit. If RJW didn't exist, you would just not wear spirit gear at all, and still have infinite mana.

The reason they made mana tea scale off spirit, was so mistweaver were forced into wearing spirit gear. Again, I feel like we're forgetting that mistweavers did margok (a 15+ minute fight) with 786 spirit. xD. Or even how directly following the mana nerfs for mistweaver, people specced into chi torpedo for Blast Furance, and never went oom.

[Desma]

Mana Tea above 2133 spirit just became a rotational annoyance. It became something you pressed every x number of seconds so you could sustain 100% uptime rushing jade wind. About as interesting as hitting judgements of the pure on cd back in firelands.

Rotational annoyance? It added an illusion of depth to our gameplay, which is not necessarily bad. If the rotation is not very strict, it can (and in this situation it did) add to the smoothness of the gameplay. Think about playing mistweaver monk WITHOUT Mana Tea in 6.2. If Mana Tea would've been the same it is now with the previous style of mistweaver healing, it would have been really bad imo.

I do like the current style of mistweaving, but I did like the previous version better.

[Supliftz]

Rotational annoyance? It added an illusion of depth to our gameplay, which is not necessarily bad. If the rotation is not very strict, it can (and in this situation it did) add to the smoothness of the gameplay. Think about playing mistweaver monk WITHOUT Mana Tea in 6.2. If Mana Tea would've been the same it is now with the previous style of mistweaver healing, it would have been really bad imo.

I do like the current style of mistweaving, but I did like the previous version better.

I can think about monk without mana tea. The gcds spent on mana tea would instead be spent on any chi generation spell, or fistweaving.

[Deleted]

Monk in MoP was fine to me with Mana Tea. You dumped all spirit and just focused on crit/haste to maximize your healing/mana regeneration. Forcing us to need spirit in WoD and the crane stance was the one thing that broke the origin of Mana Tea. Oh, and that Soothing Mist / CJL no longer gained Chi.

[Deleted]

The only time you went oom in wod was because you spammed too many unecessary RJWs, then --> Mana pot and start over. Blizzard realized they couldnt balance mana tea without chi so they simply removed the whole thing.

Now your mana matters like the rest of the healers.

[Solemnity]

Rotational annoyance? It added an illusion of depth to our gameplay, which is not necessarily bad. If the rotation is not very strict, it can (and in this situation it did) add to the smoothness of the gameplay. Think about playing mistweaver monk WITHOUT Mana Tea in 6.2. If Mana Tea would've been the same it is now with the previous style of mistweaver healing, it would have been really bad imo.

I do like the current style of mistweaving, but I did like the previous version better.

"What is wrong with it?" is begging the wrong question, but "what was right with it?". Just because you miss a filler button doesn't mean it was worthwhile.

At least we have somewhat of an option with the Mana Tea, Rising Thunder, Focused Thunder. I probably don't feel confident enough in my ability to play FT on progression with great enough fidelity, and it's painfully boring. Can't say Focused Thunder makes me fly off the fun train though. Mana Tea at least makes me feel like I have cool buttons, but I don't see a situation for it yet. Haven't seen a single raid.

[lycrates]

I just don't understand why you would talent focused thunder only to spam vivify on cd. The talent makes more sense if you're spamming tft rem on cd.

I thought about this some time ago, and I believe that this argument actually supports talenting TFT instead of Mana Tea. It is like saying "Sure you can get good mana saving benefits from using TFT for Vivify - especially in high mobility fights where you will not get the full benefit of Mana Tea, but TFT does something even more amazing, so you should Talent Mana Tea instead so that you are not tempted to use TFT for mana savings"

If anything, doesnt this just prove the superiorty of TFT? If you choose to use TFT to save mana like Mana Tea then you can get a similar benefit, especially in high mobility fights where not many people can get the full value out of Mana Tea, AND still have the option to use it for ReM when you do not feel that mana is going to be critical.

I am sure that top-tier players may be able to get the full value of Mana Tea even in High Mobility fights, but I think most MWs (myself included) will not get the full benefit of Mana Tea. Can you imagine using Mana Tea and then having to move and missing out the full Mana Tea? While with TFT you can always use it on CD and can always get the full value. Especially in progression when the Raid is still mastering the Boss mechanics and everyone is constantly moving, I cant imagine using Mana Tea to its full effect. I am sure most MWs will get maybe 3/4ths of the benefits of Mana Tea in a given fight.

[Deleted]

I thought about this some time ago, and I believe that this argument actually supports talenting TFT instead of Mana Tea. It is like saying "Sure you can get good mana saving benefits from using TFT for Vivify - especially in high mobility fights where you will not get the full benefit of Mana Tea, but TFT does something even more amazing, so you should Talent Mana Tea instead so that you are not tempted to use TFT for mana savings"

If anything, doesnt this just prove the superiorty of TFT? If you choose to use TFT to save mana like Mana Tea then you can get a similar benefit, especially in high mobility fights where not many people can get the full value out of Mana Tea, AND still have the option to use it for ReM when you do not feel that mana is going to be critical.

I am sure that top-tier players may be able to get the full value of Mana Tea even in High Mobility fights, but I think most MWs (myself included) will not get the full benefit of Mana Tea. Can you imagine using Mana Tea and then having to move and missing out the full Mana Tea? While with TFT you can always use it on CD and can always get the full value. Especially in progression when the Raid is still mastering the Boss mechanics and everyone is constantly moving, I cant imagine using Mana Tea to its full effect. I am sure most MWs will get maybe 3/4ths of the benefits of Mana Tea in a given fight.

You don't chose between TFT and Mana Tea. You chose between an extra charge for TFT (FT) or a CD reset for TFT (RT) or Mana Tea. And you will use TFT on CD regardless if you chose Mana Tea or another talent.
And you will lose TONS of hps AND mana with your playstyle of using TFT only with Vivify. That's just stupid, sorry. You don't throw enough ReMs around, they don't spread that much (hello @Dancing mists), you have less healing done by a "fire and forget"-hot, you have less UT-procs. Which means you have to spam your other heals much more, especially Env and Vivify. Thus, you will burn more mana because Rem does only 15% instead of 30% of your healing.

[lycrates]

You don't chose between TFT and Mana Tea. You chose between an extra charge for TFT (FT) or a CD reset for TFT (RT) or Mana Tea. And you will use TFT on CD regardless if you chose Mana Tea or another talent.
And you will lose TONS of hps AND mana with your playstyle of using TFT only with Vivify. That's just stupid, sorry. You don't throw enough ReMs around, they don't spread that much (hello @Dancing mists), you have less healing done by a "fire and forget"-hot, you have less UT-procs. Which means you have to spam your other heals much more, especially Env and Vivify. Thus, you will burn more mana because Rem does only 15% instead of 30% of your healing.

I was only talking about the extra charge of TFT you get from the talent. Not about using the original charge you have without the talent. Basically comparing which is better to have, Mana Tea or an extra charge of TFT.

If you are saying that using the second charge of TFT to save mana that may equal to Mana Tea is always a bad choice, then you are just agreeing with the argument that the TFT talent is better than Mana Tea. O.o

Edit: I am not saying Mana Tea is bad at all. I was just exploring the viability of using the extra charge of TFT from the FT talent as the alternative to Mana Tea. Mana Tea is extremely useful, but also has a lot of restrictions - like A LOT!

You need to be very careful when you cast it because it only lasts for 10 seconds and you risk loosing its 1.5 min CD if you do not/cannot take full advantage of those 10 seconds to cast your expensive spells. Maybe the Raid does not need that much healing at that time so you will need to delay using it, or maybe it is a high movement phase so you have to delay using it, or maybe you used it and the Boss targeted you or someone near you with a mechanic and you need to move, or maybe you can only use 8 seconds of the buff before having to move. Mana tea has soooo many drawbacks while TFT is extremely easy to use and you will always get its full value. Not to mention that TFT casts are spread out so if you are using a charge for a free Vivivy also works well with Lifecycles while you are not going to be taking advantage of Lifecycles with Mana Tea.

Perhaps using the extra charge of TFT for Vivivy is really not optimal or perhaps Mana Tea fits better with some people's playstyles. I just wanted to explore the option of using FT as an alternative to Mana tea.

This could be a nice combo. Trigger TFT> cast ReM on an injured target > Cast free Vivify on that target (triggers Lifecycles if it is not up and takes advantage of the extend life buff and restarts the CD of TFT > cast the second ReM on the tank taking damage > cast the reduced cost Enveloping on them which also takes advantage of the extend life buff. Potentially this can do a ton of healing for very little mana (especially if your first target gets fully healed and ReM starts jumping to other people, triggering Dancing Mists).

[Geodew]

That's really different, because the mana you gained for Mana Tide was always useful, you could use it in periods of downtime and bank that extra mana for when you need it. Mana Tea is only good when it's cooldown lines up very well with certain mechanics in a fight, otherwise the return you gain is in my opinion too low to even be beneficial. Too many fights where it's up and you're just Fistweaving, if you use it just to use it, and cast heavy cost spells when you don't need to you're overall losing mana over the course of the fight, and it's not up when you do actually need it.

Obviously, you wouldn't use it while Fistweaving. I'm not arguing you don't lose ANY time on it, unlike MTT. However, you don't need to wait until heavy damage to reap the benefits because our core spells (ReM/Vivify/EM/EF/Effuse) all have roughly the same efficiency, except EF, which has HIGHER efficiency (without Extend Life anyway), and ReM, which has a cooldown and you're using it on cooldown regardless. So you can use it during moderate damage with chaining EFs, ReM on cooldown, and spamming Vivifies (or EM if you need) and save yourself mana (or at least other healers mana by sniping) for later in the fight, when the heavy damage is actually coming in. In other words, practically speaking, it makes no difference because you can just (under Mana Tea) use your "max HPS" rotation during moderate raid damage because you don't lose any total whole-fight mana efficiency by doing so.

(Contrast this with early WoD Mistweaver, where spamming RJW would OOM you quickly and was less efficient than generating Chi slowly with SooM+SM. This theorycraft would not have been correct for WoD MW, but I don't think it's at all misleading for Legion MW.)

For reference, HPM comparisons (EF tab): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=815473942

[Spotnick]

On the other hand, you guys also assume, that someone will use every single TFT on Vivify, and that's just as unlikely.

I don't think I've ever used it on Vivify.. like 90% of the time on Renewing Mist, rest on instant Enveloping Mist, and 10% seems exaggerated.

There is just no fight long enough in HFC to really have mana issues right now. Biggest issue is we used to be gods so we cut down on healers.. and now people seems to forget they have been underhealing for months.

[stewiefied]

Using TFT on vivify isn't the only way it will save mana. If you use TFT on renewing mist it will give you more UT vivifys throughout the course of the fight, making vivify more mana efficient and also increasing your throughput. Casting one 40% larger vivify can be better than casting two 50% cost vivifys in many situations. If you still feel like your "extra" TFT should be used on vivify, why wouldnt you use all of your TFTs on it?

I don't think you can compare the two correctly if you are thinking of FT as free vivifys, you need to think of FT as doubling the renewing mists out in the raid and take into account the extra ReM healing and extra UT vivifys.